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Intelligent Design Isn't So Intelligent

Skwim

Veteran Member
To escape the onus that has accrued to plain old creationism (it's been banned as a legitimate subject in public school science classes) some Biblical creationists have tried to disencumber themselves from this millstone by claiming life was created pretty much as is by an intelligent designer. To arrive at such a conclusion they had to disavow any reliance on religion; however, in their efforts through "scientific" investigation they found their evidence happens to point to just such a religious figure, *Surprise!*Surprise!*Surprise!* And guess who best fits the description. Yup, god. And, of course, the god best fitting all the scientific evidence is almost always the god of Abraham. WOW! Who would have thought. Life was created by an intelligent designer who happens to be the god of Abraham.

This being the background of ID, the question I pose is, If this designer is so intelligent, why did he make so many goofs?
Goofs such as:


"In the human female, a fertilized egg can implant into the fallopian tube, cervix or ovary rather than the uterus causing an ectopic pregnancy. The existence of a cavity between the ovary and the fallopian tube could indicate a flawed design in the female reproductive system. Prior to modern surgery, ectopic pregnancy invariably caused the deaths of both mother and baby. Even in modern times, in almost all cases the pregnancy must be aborted to save the life of the mother.

In the human female, the birth canal passes through the pelvis. The prenatal skull will deform to a surprising extent. However, if the baby's head is significantly larger than the pelvic opening, the baby cannot be born naturally. Prior to the development of modern surgery (caesarean section), such a complication would lead to the death of the mother, the baby, or both. Other birthing complications such as breech birth are worsened by this position of the birth canal.

In the human male, testes develop initially within the abdomen. Later during gestation, they migrate through the abdominal wall into the scrotum. This causes two weak points in the abdominal wall where hernias can later form. Prior to modern surgical techniques, complications from hernias, such as intestinal blockage and gangrene, usually resulted in death.

The existence of the pharynx, a passage used for both ingestion and respiration, with the consequent drastic increase in the risk of choking.

The breathing reflex is stimulated not directly by the absence of oxygen but indirectly by the presence of carbon dioxide. A result is that, at high altitudes, oxygen deprivation can occur in unadapted individuals who do not consciously increase their breathing rate.

Barely used nerves and muscles, such as the plantaris muscle of the foot,[8] that are missing in part of the human population and are routinely harvested as spare parts if needed during operations. Another example is the muscles that move the ears, which some people can learn to control to a degree, but serve no purpose in any case"
source
_______________________________________________

"The existence of unnecessary wings in flightless birds, e.g. ostriches

Whales and dolphins breathe air, but live in the water, meaning they must swim to the surface frequently to breathe.

Sturdy but heavy bones, suited for non-flight, occurring in animals like bats. Or, on the converse: unstable, light, hollow bones, suited for flight, occurring in birds like penguins and ostriches, which cannot fly.

Various vestigial body parts, like the femur and pelvis in whales (evolution says the ancestor of whales lived on land)."
source
_____________________________________________

In addition, this intelligent designer thought it smart that we have

Weather events such as tornadoes and hurricanes/typhoons that devastate land and property, and kill thousands.

Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions that do the same.

Tsunamis, whatever their origin, that also do the same.

CONCLUSION
Mean, cruel, evil, or just plain dumb? I'm voting for #1

1) Not intelligent at all

.
 
Last edited:

Darkstorn

This shows how unique i am.
While i pretty much agree, i'm starting to think this whole ID versus real science thing to be extremely redundant and none of the other threads have really managed to convince anyone of the failings of their own beliefs. Because that's incredibly hard for people to accept.

Consider this: Wouldn't it be easier to put effort into constructive things? You cannot teach a person who doesn't want to learn. Then again; This is a debate thread so maybe your opponents will take what you wrote and debate it with rationality and logic. But somehow i don't see that happening. :D
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You've not even started on the bad designs in nature.
Why do humans have a blind spot?
What is the laryngeal nerve in a giraffe doing?

There are thousands of these 'anomalies' that are explained by evolution but make a mockery of an intelligent designer
.
I agree. The list is long. Far too long to bother providing more than a taste of all the bad designs.


While i pretty much agree, i'm starting to think this whole ID versus real science thing to be extremely redundant and none of the other threads have really managed to convince anyone of the failings of their own beliefs. Because that's incredibly hard for people to accept.

Consider this: Wouldn't it be easier to put effort into constructive things? You cannot teach a person who doesn't want to learn. Then again; This is a debate thread so maybe your opponents will take what you wrote and debate it with rationality and logic. But somehow i don't see that happening. :D
You're absolutely right that I could be doing more constructive things than try changing the minds of creationists. Things like gathering signatures for Trump's impeachment. But sitting here with Aerial America playing in the background I find this far more relaxing. Trump's more like three shots of heavy duty caffeine, something I don't need at this hour.

.
 

Misunderstood

Active Member
To escape the onus that has accrued to plain old creationism (it's been banned as a legitimate subject in public school science classes) some Biblical creationists have tried to disencumber themselves from this millstone by claiming life was created pretty much as is by an intelligent designer. To arrive at such a conclusion they had to disavow any reliance on religion; however, in their efforts through "scientific" investigation they found their evidence happens to point to just such a religious figure, *Surprise!*Surprise!*Surprise!* And guess who best fits the description. Yup, god. And, of course, the god best fitting all the scientific evidence is almost always the god of Abraham. WOW! Who would have thought. Life was created by an intelligent designer who happens to be the god of Abraham.

This being the background of ID, the question I pose is, If this designer is so intelligent, why did he make so many goofs?
Goofs such as:


"In the human female, a fertilized egg can implant into the fallopian tube, cervix or ovary rather than the uterus causing an ectopic pregnancy. The existence of a cavity between the ovary and the fallopian tube could indicate a flawed design in the female reproductive system. Prior to modern surgery, ectopic pregnancy invariably caused the deaths of both mother and baby. Even in modern times, in almost all cases the pregnancy must be aborted to save the life of the mother.

In the human female, the birth canal passes through the pelvis. The prenatal skull will deform to a surprising extent. However, if the baby's head is significantly larger than the pelvic opening, the baby cannot be born naturally. Prior to the development of modern surgery (caesarean section), such a complication would lead to the death of the mother, the baby, or both. Other birthing complications such as breech birth are worsened by this position of the birth canal.

In the human male, testes develop initially within the abdomen. Later during gestation, they migrate through the abdominal wall into the scrotum. This causes two weak points in the abdominal wall where hernias can later form. Prior to modern surgical techniques, complications from hernias, such as intestinal blockage and gangrene, usually resulted in death.

The existence of the pharynx, a passage used for both ingestion and respiration, with the consequent drastic increase in the risk of choking.

The breathing reflex is stimulated not directly by the absence of oxygen but indirectly by the presence of carbon dioxide. A result is that, at high altitudes, oxygen deprivation can occur in unadapted individuals who do not consciously increase their breathing rate.

Barely used nerves and muscles, such as the plantaris muscle of the foot,[8] that are missing in part of the human population and are routinely harvested as spare parts if needed during operations. Another example is the muscles that move the ears, which some people can learn to control to a degree, but serve no purpose in any case"
source
_______________________________________________

"The existence of unnecessary wings in flightless birds, e.g. ostriches

Whales and dolphins breathe air, but live in the water, meaning they must swim to the surface frequently to breathe.

Sturdy but heavy bones, suited for non-flight, occurring in animals like bats. Or, on the converse: unstable, light, hollow bones, suited for flight, occurring in birds like penguins and ostriches, which cannot fly.

Various vestigial body parts, like the femur and pelvis in whales (evolution says the ancestor of whales lived on land)."
source
_____________________________________________

In addition, this intelligent designer thought it smart that we have

Weather events such as tornadoes and hurricanes/typhoons that devastate land and property, and kill thousands.

Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions that do the same.

Tsunamis, whatever their origin, that also do the same.

CONCLUSION
Mean, cruel, evil, or just plain dumb? I'm voting for #1

1) Not intelligent at all

.
What are our other choices? You only give "#1) Not intelligent at all". I don't think that would be my choice.
 

Darkstorn

This shows how unique i am.
What are our other choices? You only give "#1) Not intelligent at all". I don't think that would be my choice.

I think he was making the point that the current argument for intelligent design ISN'T intelligent to begin with. This isn't about choice. This is about people advocating ID being given yet again another chance to argue their position rationally.

But seems like my prediction is turning true. :D
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Not commenting on whether intelligent design is real or not, but... All designers make errors, even well intentioned ones.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm surprised no one has offered that "sin" entering the world is what's responsible for these defects of design. For instance, "To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

As you can see, the shape of the pelvis as it is now, is not how it worked originally. It was much larger and women had much wider stances and greater strides when they walked prior to sinning. Also, as you can see in the above verse, Patriarchal systems were allowed to corrupt the natural order in order to punish women for causing men to sin. That too is flawed, but it's not God's original design. Humans are responsible for everything wrong with nature.

As you can see, the answers to all these puzzles can be found by just looking to the Bible to set the record straight. Easy peasies.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
To escape the onus that has accrued to plain old creationism (it's been banned as a legitimate subject in public school science classes) some Biblical creationists have tried to disencumber themselves from this millstone by claiming life was created pretty much as is by an intelligent designer. To arrive at such a conclusion they had to disavow any reliance on religion; however, in their efforts through "scientific" investigation they found their evidence happens to point to just such a religious figure, *Surprise!*Surprise!*Surprise!* And guess who best fits the description. Yup, god. And, of course, the god best fitting all the scientific evidence is almost always the god of Abraham. WOW! Who would have thought. Life was created by an intelligent designer who happens to be the god of Abraham.

This being the background of ID, the question I pose is, If this designer is so intelligent, why did he make so many goofs?
Goofs such as:


"In the human female, a fertilized egg can implant into the fallopian tube, cervix or ovary rather than the uterus causing an ectopic pregnancy. The existence of a cavity between the ovary and the fallopian tube could indicate a flawed design in the female reproductive system. Prior to modern surgery, ectopic pregnancy invariably caused the deaths of both mother and baby. Even in modern times, in almost all cases the pregnancy must be aborted to save the life of the mother.

In the human female, the birth canal passes through the pelvis. The prenatal skull will deform to a surprising extent. However, if the baby's head is significantly larger than the pelvic opening, the baby cannot be born naturally. Prior to the development of modern surgery (caesarean section), such a complication would lead to the death of the mother, the baby, or both. Other birthing complications such as breech birth are worsened by this position of the birth canal.

In the human male, testes develop initially within the abdomen. Later during gestation, they migrate through the abdominal wall into the scrotum. This causes two weak points in the abdominal wall where hernias can later form. Prior to modern surgical techniques, complications from hernias, such as intestinal blockage and gangrene, usually resulted in death.

The existence of the pharynx, a passage used for both ingestion and respiration, with the consequent drastic increase in the risk of choking.

The breathing reflex is stimulated not directly by the absence of oxygen but indirectly by the presence of carbon dioxide. A result is that, at high altitudes, oxygen deprivation can occur in unadapted individuals who do not consciously increase their breathing rate.

Barely used nerves and muscles, such as the plantaris muscle of the foot,[8] that are missing in part of the human population and are routinely harvested as spare parts if needed during operations. Another example is the muscles that move the ears, which some people can learn to control to a degree, but serve no purpose in any case"
source
_______________________________________________

"The existence of unnecessary wings in flightless birds, e.g. ostriches

Whales and dolphins breathe air, but live in the water, meaning they must swim to the surface frequently to breathe.

Sturdy but heavy bones, suited for non-flight, occurring in animals like bats. Or, on the converse: unstable, light, hollow bones, suited for flight, occurring in birds like penguins and ostriches, which cannot fly.

Various vestigial body parts, like the femur and pelvis in whales (evolution says the ancestor of whales lived on land)."
source
_____________________________________________

In addition, this intelligent designer thought it smart that we have

Weather events such as tornadoes and hurricanes/typhoons that devastate land and property, and kill thousands.

Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions that do the same.

Tsunamis, whatever their origin, that also do the same.

CONCLUSION
Mean, cruel, evil, or just plain dumb? I'm voting for #1

1) Not intelligent at all

.
the, we live in a virtual reality narrative is stupid in religious drag or secular drag. Call it what it is. Diaasociated from reality. The last I checked that's normal.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
To escape the onus that has accrued to plain old creationism (it's been banned as a legitimate subject in public school science classes) some Biblical creationists have tried to disencumber themselves from this millstone by claiming life was created pretty much as is by an intelligent designer. To arrive at such a conclusion they had to disavow any reliance on religion; however, in their efforts through "scientific" investigation they found their evidence happens to point to just such a religious figure, *Surprise!*Surprise!*Surprise!* And guess who best fits the description. Yup, god. And, of course, the god best fitting all the scientific evidence is almost always the god of Abraham. WOW! Who would have thought. Life was created by an intelligent designer who happens to be the god of Abraham.

This being the background of ID, the question I pose is, If this designer is so intelligent, why did he make so many goofs?
Goofs such as:


"In the human female, a fertilized egg can implant into the fallopian tube, cervix or ovary rather than the uterus causing an ectopic pregnancy. The existence of a cavity between the ovary and the fallopian tube could indicate a flawed design in the female reproductive system. Prior to modern surgery, ectopic pregnancy invariably caused the deaths of both mother and baby. Even in modern times, in almost all cases the pregnancy must be aborted to save the life of the mother.

In the human female, the birth canal passes through the pelvis. The prenatal skull will deform to a surprising extent. However, if the baby's head is significantly larger than the pelvic opening, the baby cannot be born naturally. Prior to the development of modern surgery (caesarean section), such a complication would lead to the death of the mother, the baby, or both. Other birthing complications such as breech birth are worsened by this position of the birth canal.

In the human male, testes develop initially within the abdomen. Later during gestation, they migrate through the abdominal wall into the scrotum. This causes two weak points in the abdominal wall where hernias can later form. Prior to modern surgical techniques, complications from hernias, such as intestinal blockage and gangrene, usually resulted in death.

The existence of the pharynx, a passage used for both ingestion and respiration, with the consequent drastic increase in the risk of choking.

The breathing reflex is stimulated not directly by the absence of oxygen but indirectly by the presence of carbon dioxide. A result is that, at high altitudes, oxygen deprivation can occur in unadapted individuals who do not consciously increase their breathing rate.

Barely used nerves and muscles, such as the plantaris muscle of the foot,[8] that are missing in part of the human population and are routinely harvested as spare parts if needed during operations. Another example is the muscles that move the ears, which some people can learn to control to a degree, but serve no purpose in any case"
source
_______________________________________________

"The existence of unnecessary wings in flightless birds, e.g. ostriches

Whales and dolphins breathe air, but live in the water, meaning they must swim to the surface frequently to breathe.

Sturdy but heavy bones, suited for non-flight, occurring in animals like bats. Or, on the converse: unstable, light, hollow bones, suited for flight, occurring in birds like penguins and ostriches, which cannot fly.

Various vestigial body parts, like the femur and pelvis in whales (evolution says the ancestor of whales lived on land)."
source
_____________________________________________

In addition, this intelligent designer thought it smart that we have

Weather events such as tornadoes and hurricanes/typhoons that devastate land and property, and kill thousands.

Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions that do the same.

Tsunamis, whatever their origin, that also do the same.

CONCLUSION
Mean, cruel, evil, or just plain dumb? I'm voting for #1

1) Not intelligent at all

.
the, we live in a virtual reality narrative is stupid in religious drag or secular drag. Call it what it is. Diaasociated from reality. The last I checked that's normal.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I'm surprised no one has offered that "sin" entering the world is what's responsible for these defects of design. For instance, "To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

As you can see, the shape of the pelvis as it is now, is not how it worked originally. It was much larger and women had much wider stances and greater strides when they walked prior to sinning. Also, as you can see in the above verse, Patriarchal systems were allowed to corrupt the natural order in order to punish women for causing men to sin. That too is flawed, but it's not God's original design. Humans are responsible for everything wrong with nature.

As you can see, the answers to all these puzzles can be found by just looking to the Bible to set the record straight. Easy peasies.
Good grief, talk about apologetics.:facepalm:

My god is perfect but sin is the problem; it sounds like that game I used to play, "Top Trumps"
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
To escape the onus that has accrued to plain old creationism (it's been banned as a legitimate subject in public school science classes) some Biblical creationists have tried to disencumber themselves from this millstone by claiming life was created pretty much as is by an intelligent designer. To arrive at such a conclusion they had to disavow any reliance on religion; however, in their efforts through "scientific" investigation they found their evidence happens to point to just such a religious figure, *Surprise!*Surprise!*Surprise!* And guess who best fits the description. Yup, god. And, of course, the god best fitting all the scientific evidence is almost always the god of Abraham. WOW! Who would have thought. Life was created by an intelligent designer who happens to be the god of Abraham.

This being the background of ID, the question I pose is, If this designer is so intelligent, why did he make so many goofs?
Goofs such as:


"In the human female, a fertilized egg can implant into the fallopian tube, cervix or ovary rather than the uterus causing an ectopic pregnancy. The existence of a cavity between the ovary and the fallopian tube could indicate a flawed design in the female reproductive system. Prior to modern surgery, ectopic pregnancy invariably caused the deaths of both mother and baby. Even in modern times, in almost all cases the pregnancy must be aborted to save the life of the mother.

In the human female, the birth canal passes through the pelvis. The prenatal skull will deform to a surprising extent. However, if the baby's head is significantly larger than the pelvic opening, the baby cannot be born naturally. Prior to the development of modern surgery (caesarean section), such a complication would lead to the death of the mother, the baby, or both. Other birthing complications such as breech birth are worsened by this position of the birth canal.

In the human male, testes develop initially within the abdomen. Later during gestation, they migrate through the abdominal wall into the scrotum. This causes two weak points in the abdominal wall where hernias can later form. Prior to modern surgical techniques, complications from hernias, such as intestinal blockage and gangrene, usually resulted in death.

The existence of the pharynx, a passage used for both ingestion and respiration, with the consequent drastic increase in the risk of choking.

The breathing reflex is stimulated not directly by the absence of oxygen but indirectly by the presence of carbon dioxide. A result is that, at high altitudes, oxygen deprivation can occur in unadapted individuals who do not consciously increase their breathing rate.

Barely used nerves and muscles, such as the plantaris muscle of the foot,[8] that are missing in part of the human population and are routinely harvested as spare parts if needed during operations. Another example is the muscles that move the ears, which some people can learn to control to a degree, but serve no purpose in any case"
source
_______________________________________________

"The existence of unnecessary wings in flightless birds, e.g. ostriches

Whales and dolphins breathe air, but live in the water, meaning they must swim to the surface frequently to breathe.

Sturdy but heavy bones, suited for non-flight, occurring in animals like bats. Or, on the converse: unstable, light, hollow bones, suited for flight, occurring in birds like penguins and ostriches, which cannot fly.

Various vestigial body parts, like the femur and pelvis in whales (evolution says the ancestor of whales lived on land)."
source
_____________________________________________

In addition, this intelligent designer thought it smart that we have

Weather events such as tornadoes and hurricanes/typhoons that devastate land and property, and kill thousands.

Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions that do the same.

Tsunamis, whatever their origin, that also do the same.

CONCLUSION
Mean, cruel, evil, or just plain dumb? I'm voting for #1

1) Not intelligent at all

.
and other mistakes.....like...
people that have eyes and see not
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
To add to @Windwalker sage post, here's another way things went wrong that is not in opposition to what he wrote:

As anyone who has ever done design including software design can tell you: you can have a perfect design but the implementation can be flawed. So rather than blame God for a bad design, blame those who tried to implement the perfect design but introduced bugs into the "software".
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
What are our other choices? You only give "#1) Not intelligent at all". I don't think that would be my choice.
There are no other choices. so it has to be #1. :D


To add to @Windwalker sage post, here's another way things went wrong that is not in opposition to what he wrote:

As anyone who has ever done design including software design can tell you: you can have a perfect design but the implementation can be flawed. So rather than blame God for a bad design, blame those who tried to implement the perfect design but introduced bugs into the "software".
So in as much as Adam and Eve screwed up obviously they were flawed. And in as much as they were an essential part of this "perfect design" obviously the design wasn't so perfect after all. God simply blew it.

.
 
Last edited:

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
There are no other choices. so it has to be. :D



So in as much as Adam and Eve screwed up obviously they were flawed. And in as much as they were an essential part of this "perfect design" obviously the design wasn't so perfect after all. God simply blew it.

.
That assumes God did all aspects of the implementation, the creation. My challenge is that the implementation of the design was not done by God alone.
 
To escape the onus that has accrued to plain old creationism (it's been banned as a legitimate subject in public school science classes) some Biblical creationists have tried to disencumber themselves from this millstone by claiming life was created pretty much as is by an intelligent designer. To arrive at such a conclusion they had to disavow any reliance on religion; however, in their efforts through "scientific" investigation they found their evidence happens to point to just such a religious figure, *Surprise!*Surprise!*Surprise!* And guess who best fits the description. Yup, god. And, of course, the god best fitting all the scientific evidence is almost always the god of Abraham. WOW! Who would have thought. Life was created by an intelligent designer who happens to be the god of Abraham.

This being the background of ID, the question I pose is, If this designer is so intelligent, why did he make so many goofs?
Goofs such as:


"In the human female, a fertilized egg can implant into the fallopian tube, cervix or ovary rather than the uterus causing an ectopic pregnancy. The existence of a cavity between the ovary and the fallopian tube could indicate a flawed design in the female reproductive system. Prior to modern surgery, ectopic pregnancy invariably caused the deaths of both mother and baby. Even in modern times, in almost all cases the pregnancy must be aborted to save the life of the mother.

In the human female, the birth canal passes through the pelvis. The prenatal skull will deform to a surprising extent. However, if the baby's head is significantly larger than the pelvic opening, the baby cannot be born naturally. Prior to the development of modern surgery (caesarean section), such a complication would lead to the death of the mother, the baby, or both. Other birthing complications such as breech birth are worsened by this position of the birth canal.

In the human male, testes develop initially within the abdomen. Later during gestation, they migrate through the abdominal wall into the scrotum. This causes two weak points in the abdominal wall where hernias can later form. Prior to modern surgical techniques, complications from hernias, such as intestinal blockage and gangrene, usually resulted in death.

The existence of the pharynx, a passage used for both ingestion and respiration, with the consequent drastic increase in the risk of choking.

The breathing reflex is stimulated not directly by the absence of oxygen but indirectly by the presence of carbon dioxide. A result is that, at high altitudes, oxygen deprivation can occur in unadapted individuals who do not consciously increase their breathing rate.

Barely used nerves and muscles, such as the plantaris muscle of the foot,[8] that are missing in part of the human population and are routinely harvested as spare parts if needed during operations. Another example is the muscles that move the ears, which some people can learn to control to a degree, but serve no purpose in any case"
source
_______________________________________________

"The existence of unnecessary wings in flightless birds, e.g. ostriches

Whales and dolphins breathe air, but live in the water, meaning they must swim to the surface frequently to breathe.

Sturdy but heavy bones, suited for non-flight, occurring in animals like bats. Or, on the converse: unstable, light, hollow bones, suited for flight, occurring in birds like penguins and ostriches, which cannot fly.

Various vestigial body parts, like the femur and pelvis in whales (evolution says the ancestor of whales lived on land)."
source
_____________________________________________

In addition, this intelligent designer thought it smart that we have

Weather events such as tornadoes and hurricanes/typhoons that devastate land and property, and kill thousands.

Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions that do the same.

Tsunamis, whatever their origin, that also do the same.

CONCLUSION
Mean, cruel, evil, or just plain dumb? I'm voting for #1

1) Not intelligent at all

.
I find the whole discussion about creationism boring most of the time because people with different opinions do seldom respect the other part, or honestly try to understand what they are saying.

I'll follow the tread!

Kindly

Edna Davidsen
 
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