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Trump's at it again

pearl

Well-Known Member
Trump is to decide whether to acknowledge Jerusalem as the capital of Israel by moving
the U S embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
Trump is to decide whether to acknowledge Jerusalem as the capital of Israel by moving
the U S embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
I don't agree with this move. It is pretty volatile down there and this will only make things worse.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It does seem rather ill-conceived. I was just reading an analysis of the move in this article: Recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital is a dangerous gambit (Opinion) - CNN

If there is a third rail in the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, it's Jerusalem. Loaded with political and religious significance, it's long been a tinderbox just waiting for a match. And we've witnessed numerous fires usually breaking out on the overlapping sacred spaces Israelis and Palestinians, Jews and Muslims, share and contest on or near the holy sites -- the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.

Of course, as an agnostic, all of this talk about "sacred ground" seems rather silly to me. It also seems contradictory and hypocritical from a religious point of view, since the major religions tout themselves as having an aversion to the worship of "idols" and "graven images," and yet, here they are fighting over idols. As if God really cares about this kind of stuff...

Why now?
The odds that Trump will stumble in his Jerusalem gambit are pretty good. That's because the point of the exercise does not seem designed to achieve any real foreign policy goals. If the Administration was positioned to close an Israeli-Palestinian deal and needed to focus on the capital issue; if Trump was trading recognition for some significant concession from Netanyahu; or if the statement the President issues on Wednesday might also include reference to the possibility of a capital in East Jerusalem for Palestinians, it might make sense.

The problem is we just don't know what the Administration's peace process strategy is.

Trying to figure out what the Administration's strategy is on anything is a daunting process.

And in the absence of a coherent one, the Jerusalem gambit appears to be a one-off -- a combination of Trump's frustration over having to use the waiver again, not yet fulfilling his campaign commitment to open an embassy in Jerusalem, and his willful desire to go where none of his predecessors have gone before him.

As such, the President's recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital is likely to be far more trouble than it's worth -- adding another layer of complication to a peace process that already faces long odds.

The one thing that strikes me about this is that the "peace process" has been going on for decades, and they don't seem any closer to any kind of permanent "peace in the Middle East" than they were 30-40 years ago. The entire region has been wracked by war for a long time, and nothing we do ever really seems to work.

White House: Jerusalem embassy move a 'recognition of reality' - CNNPolitics

"It seems clear now that the physical location of the American embassy is not material to a peace deal. It's not an impediment to peace and it's not a facilitator to peace," one senior administration official said. "After having tried this for 22 years, an acknowledgment of reality seems like an important thing."

It seems the point being made here is that it may not make things any better, but it's hard to say how it could make things even worse.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Trump is to decide whether to acknowledge Jerusalem as the capital of Israel by moving
the U S embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
Breaking news Constantine wants to move the capitol to Istanbul call it constantinople!!!!
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
As a Jew who has spent some time in Israel, I don't see this as being a smart move as there's really nothing to be gained and quite a bit that we and others could lose. OTOH, it's a shame that moving an embassy to the actual capital of a country is at all controversial.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
People get way too excited over things that are only symbolic. In reality it makes no difference, but it's a clash of nationalism versus nationalism in the feelings of people there. I expect many innocent people to get killed over this, so it's a bad move.

On the background for this move must be the thaw between Saudi and Israeli relations.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
People get way too excited over things that are only symbolic. In reality it makes no difference, but it's a clash of nationalism versus nationalism in the feelings of people there. I expect many innocent people to get killed over this, so it's a bad move.

On the background for this move must be the thaw between Saudi and Israeli relations.
Nonetheless, it's a real & deadly problem that people get way to excited over things which are only
symbolic. This must be taken into account in one's actions. It strikes me that Trump is all about Israeli
supremacy, & not so much about peace...except for peace resulting from conquering someone.
What's the benefit in this decision?
None that I see.
And it's only taxpayer money wasted in the move.
There's plenty more where that came from, eh.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Nonetheless, it's a real & deadly problem that people get way to excited over things which are only
symbolic. This must be taken into account in one's actions.
I agree. That's why it's a bad move.

What's the benefit in this decision?
None that I see.
And it's only taxpayer money wasted in the move.
There's plenty more where that came from, eh.
Before this move, Aljazeera news talked about Saudis wanting to gain a reliable ally against Iran in Israel. It also talked about how they would like Jerusalem to have less religious importance, so they could gain as Mecca and Medina would have more importance. Their analysis makes sense now with Trump's move. Like the travel ban, it may end up being applauded by Saudis.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I agree. That's why it's a bad move.


Before this move, Aljazeera news talked about Saudis wanting to gain a reliable ally against Iran in Israel. It also talked about how they would like Jerusalem to have less religious importance, so they could gain as Mecca and Medina would have more importance. Their analysis makes sense now with Trump's move. Like the travel ban, it may end up being applauded by Saudis.
Americastanian politicians fail to understand something.....
If they treat Iran as the enemy...attacking, attacking, & more attacking,
then Iran will indeed be the enemy. I recommend less attacking.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Americastanian politicians fail to understand something.....
If they treat Iran as the enemy...attacking, attacking, & more attacking,
then Iran will indeed be the enemy. I recommend less attacking.
America's allies in M-E have a different view.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
I think the easiest option all around is "put the embassy where the Israelis say to put it".

What's their position on where embassies should be? Anyone think to ask them?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
America's allies in M-E have a different view.
They have a right to be wrong...& evil.
But I'd rather that we not cause or enable death & destruction.

We killed about a million Iranians when we instigated & supported
Iraq's attacking them. We supplied military assistance, including
WMDs (biological & chemical weapons). We overthrew their elected
leader in the 1953 coup.
Should they be angry & fearful?
Should they be seeking a much stronger military for self defense?
You betcha!
We caused that.
Time for regime change.....but here this time.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Trump is to decide whether to acknowledge Jerusalem as the capital of Israel by moving
the U S embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
I think this is a nothing burger that will actually create harm without creating any good. The US has recognized Jerusalem as the capital for decades. And, I believe Trump is not going to announce the moving of the embassy today, just recognition of the capital. So, he is going to anger the Palestinians, ruin any chance of peace negotiations, all without getting anything tangible in return. Another stupid, symbolic, do-nothing move by a President who doesn't care about anything beyond pleasing his ignorant base.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
As a Jew who has spent some time in Israel, I don't see this as being a smart move as there's really nothing to be gained and quite a bit that we and others could lose. OTOH, it's a shame that moving an embassy to the actual capital of a country is at all controversial.
I think it is dangerous due to Muslims, the world over heads collectively exploding, at such recognition. It also gives the middle finger to the UN in it's bid to internationalize the city of Jerusalem. Let's face it, other than the Al-Aqsa mosque which was built to commemorate a dream of Muhammad's, Muslims have no claim to the Israeli capital. That it was built on the rubble of the holiest site in Judaism is just a teeny bit of a slap in the face to Jews and a constant thorn in their side.

Such a move by the US, to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv, will likely trigger waves of terrorist attacks by followers of the Religion of Peace ®©
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I think it is dangerous due to Muslims, the world over heads collectively exploding, at such recognition. It also gives the middle finger to the UN in it's bid to internationalize the city of Jerusalem. Let's face it, other than the Al-Aqsa mosque which was built to commemorate a dream of Muhammad's, Muslims have no claim to the Israeli capital. That it was built the rubble of the holiest site in Judaism is just a teeny bit of a slap in the face to Jews and a constant thorn in their side.

Such a move by the US, to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv, will likely trigger waves of terrorist attacks by followers of the Religion of Peace ®©
People make lots'o claims.
Some are more valid than others, but it all looks rather subjective & emotionally driven here.
What matters isn't determining which claim rules. (That would be impossible because of
differing premises. Religion, you know.) The goal should be to find the course of least carnage.
But this is not Trump's way....or Israel's.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Trying to figure out what the Administration's strategy is on anything is a daunting process.
Just look at what one of the three plutocratic owners of the Republican party want. In this case, it's Adelson that wants it.

It seems the point being made here is that it may not make things any better, but it's hard to say how it could make things even worse.
It can always be worse. I expect more attacks on America and Americans, more attacks on Israel and of course the rest of the world looking at the USA as a bunch of pathetic losers and has-beens.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Just look at what one of the three plutocratic owners of the Republican party want. In this case, it's Adelson that wants it.


It can always be worse. I expect more attacks on America and Americans, more attacks on Israel and of course the rest of the world looking at the USA as a bunch of pathetic losers and has-beens.

Well I suppose we can always get worse too. If we took the gloves off and used all the firepower available in our massive arsenal, we could end all problems in the ME overnight. Not that I'm proposing that, but we can always get meaner, if that's what they want from America.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. I don't see what the problem is. Of course some are going to be angry but it's not like the fabled two-state concept is going anywhere. At this point, I'm fine with a one-state solution with Jerusalem as its capital. I wouldn't like to see Jerusalem split, personally.
 
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