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Let’s talk about the Bible

kjw47

Well-Known Member
We've been through this before KJW. You don't "seal up the words" by publishing those same words. Note God told Daniel to seal up the words, whereas you're trying to get us to believe He said "seal up the meaning".

Meaning:
בּינה


bı̂ynâh
BDB Definition:

1) understanding, discernment
1a) act
1b) faculty
1c) object
1d) personified​

In any event, Daniel, who is asked to seal up the words, could not have sealed up the meaning unless he made a conscious effort to obfuscate whatever he was writing down...something God didn't ask him to do. Remember, it's seal up the words, not the meaning, and it's seal up the words, not "obfuscate what I'm telling you" and it's seal up the words, not "write somethings so confusing no one will understand it for the next 2500 years."



Probably because it would be even dumber to believe that God's truth would be revealed as "errors" in need of "correction".

Isaiah 5:21:

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!



When haven't you seen the words of Daniel in any bible? You haven't not seen them. The teachings are there for centuries--no one knew the hidden meanings that go along with Revelation for these last days.
Daniel reveals a lot of the symbolic meanings of revelation--not one knew until these last days--Yet every word is written in the bible.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Why don't they profess to actually HEAR FROM The Holy Spirit? I agree with you that they may be "guided". But, to be taught a person must HEAR from someone.


Only through the real teachers that have Jesus are truths revealed.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God assures he inspired the words of the bible.
Please listen this time. I do not know if God inspired all the words that the men heard. I do not doubt it. It is possible. The words they heard they did not write down most of what is called The Bible. OK? Much of it was transmitted orally. Eventually, words were written down. Those words can be called "second hand" words. THEN, those second-hand words were TRANSLATED and COPIED.
So what we have now is at least three generations later. The governing body will not let you understand this. That is just too bad.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
When haven't you seen the words of Daniel in any bible? You haven't not seen them.

Exactly right KJW. So God couldn't have been talking about sealing the book of Daniel. Are we agreed on this?


The teachings are there for centuries--no one knew the hidden meanings that go along with Revelation for these last days.

Hold on...

(1) Where does Daniel say he was writing the book of Revelation?

(2) If the book was "sealed" until the last days, why is John shown the book a few years after the death of Jesus?

(3) Why is John revealing the words Daniels was told to shut? Wouldn't he be under the same obligation of Daniel...to seal them until the last days?

(4) Why is John taking credit for something Daniel wrote?

(5) Why do you continuously confuse " shut up the words" with "shut up the meaning"? I've shown you both "words' and "meaning" in Hebrew. They are not interchangeable. In other words "words" does NOT mean "hidden meanings" in Hebrew.

By the way, you just may want to read the prologue at Revelation 1:1 before answering.

Daniel reveals a lot of the symbolic meanings of revelation--not one knew until these last days--Yet every word is written in the bible.

Huh?

Can you explain exactly when and how Daniel materialized in the last days to reveal these "hidden meanings" to your Governing Body when he simultaneously "ceased to exist" and became "unconscious" centuries ago?

Did your Governing Body channel him?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Independently of people’s individual beliefs, it is undeniable that the Bible has an incredible story.

Yes. It is undeniable that the Bible has an incredible story.

Unless someone gives it credence. But that would defeat the premise, of course.

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
- French humanist, Voltaire, (1700) boastfully proclaimed, "one hundred years from now the world will hear no more of the Bible." Yet, in the year of his boast, the British museum purchased a manuscript of the Greek New Testament for $500,000 while the first edition of Voltaire's new book sold for eight cents a copy! Furthermore, fifty years after the death of Voltaire, Bibles were being printed by the Geneva Bible Society in the very house where Voltaire lived and on his own printing press!

Voltaire, like most people of the Enlightenment, had an over-optimistic view about the maturity level of humanity. It is not much different from the positivist view that we will reach full knowledge about everything in a few decades. Which was (and still is) obviously wrong. Some scientists fall in that irrational optimism trap quite often, too.

At his time humanity was maybe at the level of a 13 years old kid. Now it lies at about 15 years old. Alas, still more hormones than neurons, like it is the case in most teenagers. Emotions and irrational hopes are today still vastly more valued than cold and logical rationality: a clear sign of immaturity as a species.

I am pretty sure there will be a time where either humanity will be extinct as a species, or will experience the last stone from the last church falling on the head of the last priest, and will therefore get rid of all those childish and irrational superstitions that populated our infancy for good. And among them, like Nietzsche would correctly put it, that particularly shameful stain in our history called Christianity.

I know I will not experience the latter, but I hope that I and my kids will not experience the former, either.

Ciao

- viole
 
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Vee

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Voltaire, like most people of the Enlightenment, had an over-optimistic view about the maturity level of humanity. It is not much different from the positivist view that we will reach full knowledge about everything in a few decades. Which was (and still is) obviously wrong. Some scientists fall in that irrational optimism trap quite often, too.

At his time humanity was maybe at the level of a 13 years old kid. Now it lies at about 15 years old. Alas, still more hormones than neurons, like it is the case in most teenagers. Emotions and irrational hopes are today still vastly more valued than cold and logical rationality: a clear sign of immaturity as a species.

I am pretty sure there will be a time where either humanity will be extinct as a species, or will experience the last stone from the last church falling on the head of the last priest, and will therefore get rid of all those childish and irrational superstitions that populated our infancy for good. And among them, like Nietzsche would correctly put it, that particularly shameful stain in our history called Christianity.

I know I will not experience the latter, but I hope that I and my kids will not experience the former, either.

Ciao

- viole

You make some very good points and the Bible itself indicates the end of religions. I sincerely hope that between now and then you and your children don't have to experience anything worse than Christianity. Things are getting crazier and crazier in this world.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
“HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY, BUT MY WORDS WILL BY NO

MEANS PASS AWAY.” Matthew 24:35 NKJV

Independently of people’s individual beliefs, it is undeniable that the Bible has an incredible story.

It was written over a period of at least 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen; some were politicians. Others were generals or kings, shepherds or historians. They were from three different continents, and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects yet they wrote with agreement and harmony.

But the most amazing fact about the bible is the way it survived. Most of our ancient literature has been lost due to the corrosion or destruction of the materials on which they were preserved. The Bible however, exists not only in its entirety, but in a well-preserved form, despite many efforts to destroy it.


- About 600 B.C. Jehoiakim, attempted to destroy the Word of God, but miserably failed. (Jeremiah. 36:21-32).

- In 175 BC the king of Syria, Antiochus Epiphanes, ordered the Jews, on pain of death, to destroy their Scriptures and worship the Greek gods. But Judas Maccabaeus saved the books and led a revolt that won independence for the Jewish nation. (Today, Jews celebrate this event at Hanukkah.)

- In 64 A.D. Emperor Nero not only tried to wipe out the Bible, but anyone who professed Christ. He blamed them for the burning of Rome (which, he did himself) and ordered their mass execution.

- In 303 A.D. the Roman Emperor, Diocletian waged a horrible onslaught against the Bible. Every manuscript that could be found was destroyed. Thousands, including entire families who owned any of these were martyred.

- Jerome, in 405 A.D. completed a Latin translation of the Bible. In spite of being persecuted, Jerome’s translation lived through the Dark Ages. Anglo-Saxon translations of parts of Scripture, particularly the Gospel accounts appeared in England in the 7th & 8th centuries. In 1379 John Wycliffe along with chosen scholars translated the Latin Bible into English. By 1383, thousands of copies of the Wycliffe Bible were in the hands of the English. People who owned these Bibles were hunted down and killed.

- In 1524 William Tyndale resolved to put the Bible into the English of his time and distribute it throughout the nation. But, this being contrary to English law, Tyndale had to leave England for Europe. Printing began in Cologne. Tyndale was apprehended and imprisoned. In 1536 he was strangled and burned at the stake.

- In 1546 the Roman Catholic Council of Trent placed any printing of religious literature, including translations of the Bible, under the control of the church. Any who wanted to read the Bible were told to obtain written permission from bishops or inquisitors—not an appealing prospect for those who wanted to remain above suspicion of heresy. People who dared to possess or distribute Bibles in the common languages of their region had to contend with the ire of the Catholic Church. Many were arrested, burned at the stake, roasted on spits, sentenced to life in prison, or sent to the galleys. Confiscated Bibles were burned

- French humanist, Voltaire, (1700) boastfully proclaimed, "one hundred years from now the world will hear no more of the Bible." Yet, in the year of his boast, the British museum purchased a manuscript of the Greek New Testament for $500,000 while the first edition of Voltaire's new book sold for eight cents a copy! Furthermore, fifty years after the death of Voltaire, Bibles were being printed by the Geneva Bible Society in the very house where Voltaire lived and on his own printing press!

- Even after the Reformation commenced and Bible societies were formed the Catholic Church classified them with Socialism and Communism. On December 8, 1866, Pope Pius IX made this amazing statement: "Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies....pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means."

Despite so much opposition, the Bible not only survived, it thrived.

The Bible has been translated into over 2000 languages. No other book even comes close.

With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time. It sells approximately 100 million copies annually, and has been a major influence on literature and history.


Some references:
25 Fascinating Facts About the Dead Sea Scrolls @ Century One Bookstore
The Write Journey: How Has the Bible Survived?
The Evidence Bible
The Preservation of the Bible
Miracle Of Survival Of The Bible
Manuscripts of the Bible — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Bible - Wikipedia

I find one aspect remarkable....
no matter who reads it.....the effect will be unique
I find one aspect remarkable....
no matter who reads it.....the effect will be unique


That points to it actually mimicking our perceptions of nature. It's been pointed out in the negative that effect as invalidating it. I might say that is something that is validating it if it has the same effect upon people. Validation in ways we might not understand. Ok I would say we don't understand.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It seems that in the process of writing the OP that you didn't mention the battles between Protestants that led to some nasty wars and persecutions, plus the fact that Luther wanted to drop some books from the Bible and that he was also highly anti-Semitic and wanted a forced conversion of Jews or their removal one way or another. Calvin, much the same. Etc.

IOW, the OP piles hot coals on the CC, which are deserved imo, but seems to whitewash what happened within Protestant circles that also has to include the use of genocide against Amerindians, forced conversions, etc. Here in Michigan, Protestants tried to stop Catholic priests from even teaching Amerindians a written language based on their own language.
Metis, agreed. The little itsy bitsy (scientific term for small very small) war in the human cranium in what we call externally science and religion is a fascinating war!!!! One denies amoral culpability as it creates weapons the other assumes moral responsibility for using the weapons the creator is appalled at the users what exactly? The user is just creating random chaos which the creator of said weapons claims is fact.

We can't split our existence into domains and hope to be sane, proof is everywhere.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Please listen this time. I do not know if God inspired all the words that the men heard. I do not doubt it. It is possible. The words they heard they did not write down most of what is called The Bible. OK? Much of it was transmitted orally. Eventually, words were written down. Those words can be called "second hand" words. THEN, those second-hand words were TRANSLATED and COPIED.
So what we have now is at least three generations later. The governing body will not let you understand this. That is just too bad.



God used the holy spirit to make his words were written down. But the religion that came out of Rome did not belong to him and they screwed it up The NWT fixed it.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Exactly right KJW. So God couldn't have been talking about sealing the book of Daniel. Are we agreed on this?




Hold on...

(1) Where does Daniel say he was writing the book of Revelation?

(2) If the book was "sealed" until the last days, why is John shown the book a few years after the death of Jesus?

(3) Why is John revealing the words Daniels was told to shut? Wouldn't he be under the same obligation of Daniel...to seal them until the last days?

(4) Why is John taking credit for something Daniel wrote?

(5) Why do you continuously confuse " shut up the words" with "shut up the meaning"? I've shown you both "words' and "meaning" in Hebrew. They are not interchangeable. In other words "words" does NOT mean "hidden meanings" in Hebrew.

By the way, you just may want to read the prologue at Revelation 1:1 before answering.



Huh?

Can you explain exactly when and how Daniel materialized in the last days to reveal these "hidden meanings" to your Governing Body when he simultaneously "ceased to exist" and became "unconscious" centuries ago?

Did your Governing Body channel him?



The teachings in Daniel reveal the symbolic meanings of many teachings in Revelation.
Daniel isn't personally revealing those hidden meanings--God is, through his holy spirit through the real teachers that belong to Jesus.

Like this example--a horn = a kingdom--In Rev there is a 7 headed beast with 10 horns--Sounds like a monster, but seeing 10 Horns= 10 kingdoms--a place where kingdoms gather. A two horned beast as well--2 kingdoms working together to exercise all authority( resolutions) of the 7 headed beast.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The bible clearly teaches Jesus is head of the congregation. He is with one single religion.
OK. So in your case, it is Jesus who "has" the governing body. Not the governing body that has Jesus.

Learn your MATH, for goodness sakes! LOL
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God used the holy spirit to make his words were written down. But the religion that came out of Rome did not belong to him and they screwed it up The NWT fixed it.
Is it all fixed now? How do you know that?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus Christ > the governing body
Greater than. Correct? @kjw47
If Jesus decides the Jehovah's Witnesses are not doing their job right can he leave them?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
You make some very good points and the Bible itself indicates the end of religions. I sincerely hope that between now and then you and your children don't have to experience anything worse than Christianity. Things are getting crazier and crazier in this world.

Well, Christians in general are good people today, I think. At least in Europe, they have become relatively harmless. I personally love believers, I just hate the belief. Probably the same you feel for sinners and sin. When I see a cross, I just recoil to what I consider a symbol of superstition, endarkment and oppression.

And I think that Nietzsche was right in his "j'accuse" against Christianity. Ceteris paribus, the world would have probably been vastly better without Christianity. There is a very illuminating series of history books about the subject: written by another German (KH Deschner) and called the "Criminal History of Christianity". Not sure there is an English translation, though.

Ciao

- viole
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
But the religion that came out of Rome did not belong to him and they screwed it up
Then Jesus must have lied when he claimed he would guide his church to the end of time, and the CC was that church, although political splits expanded those who can also trace their ancestry back to the original, such as the Orthodox and Anglican Churches. The JW' do not qualify. So, if you believe in Jesus and not just some things about him, let me recommend you join one of those churches.
 
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