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My Issues With Romans One

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Mine too.

Romans 1:20
20 There are things about God that people cannot see—his eternal power and all that makes him God. But since the beginning of the world, those things have been easy for people to understand. They are made clear in what God has made. So people have no excuse for the evil they do.
Hmmm . . . . . it appears Paul forgot the Latter Prophets. Yeshayahu in particular.

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

.



You misquoted Romans 1:20. Those two verses are not comparable when your error is corrected.

Romans 1:20
F
or since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
 
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DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Thats one of the more wilder claims that no true atheist really exists.

One which most people who have been something other than theists know to be false. It's a good conversation starter though since it invites rebuttals...

The verse states that atheists have no excuse, not that they don't exist.

Why do you say you know it is false? You certainly cannot prove it is.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You misquoted Romans 1:20. Those two verses are not comparable when your error is corrected.

Romans 1:20
F
or since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
You pick your version of the Bible and I'll pick mine. Isn't that how Christian apologetics works?



Need to prove Noah's ark was made of gopher wood? Then quote Genesis 6:14 the 21st Century King James Version

"Make thee an ark of gopherwood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt cover it within and without with pitch."​


Think it was made out of cypress wood instead? Then quote Genesis 6:14 the Easy-to-Read Version

"Use cypress wood and build a boat for yourself. Make rooms in the boat and cover it with tar inside and out."​


How about pine trees? Then quote Genesis 6:14 the Geneva Bible

" Make thee an Ark of pine trees: thou shalt make cabins in the Ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch."

Change your mind and feel it was made out of teak instead? Then quote Genesis 6:14 The Message

“Build yourself a ship from teak wood. Make rooms in it. Coat it with pitch inside and out.

But maybe all you need is an ark made out of just good old wood. Then quote Genesis 6:14 the Common English Bible

"so make a wooden ark. Make the ark with nesting places and cover it inside and out with tar."​


Or to put a finer point on it, maybe resinous wood. Then quote the Tree of Life Version

"Make a boat from resinous wood, sealing it with tar; and construct decks and stalls throughout the ship."​

.
 
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Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Romans 1: 22 - 23

22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools; 23 and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.

Its about people belonging to the Roman mystery cults who worship images of the "emperor" (a mortal human being) and gods in animal-form. Not atheists. The people he is referring to worship "gods", they are polytheists - and not even meaning all idolaters, for he later notes that there are ones who will be excused on the day of judgement for living morally in accordance with their conscience.

Paul's description above is derived from chapters 13-15 of the Wisdom of Solomon, which is specifically about pagan idolatry in those specific chapters (although the earlier chapter 2 also refers to Jewish mortalists and Greek atomists who reject belief in an afterlife). Wisdom 13 states, in part:


But miserable, with their hopes set on dead things, are those
who give the name “gods” to the works of human hands,

gold and silver fashioned with skill,
and likenesses of animals,
or a useless stone, the work of an ancient hand...
He forms it in the likeness of a human being,
14 or makes it like some worthless animal,
giving it a coat of red paint and coloring its surface red
and covering every blemish in it with paint;
15 then he makes a suitable niche for it,
and sets it in the wall, and fastens it there with iron


Ancient cities were full of temples and shrines with images of gods and goddesses worshipped in the form cats, jackals, crocodiles, serpents: Isis, Osiris, Anubis, Mithras with his sacred bull and so on. Mystery cults like Mithraism.

His discussion of alleged sexual debauchery must also be understood in the context of these idolatrous cults. These are exactly the sort of things that went on in and around some (not all, obviously) pagan temples throughout the Mediterranean world in Paul's time, as at the time of the writer of the Book of Wisdom, which goes into rather more detail than Paul does:


Wisdom 14

For a father, consumed with grief at an untimely bereavement,
made an image of his child
, who had been suddenly taken from him;
he now honored as a god what was once a dead human being,
and handed on to his dependents secret rites and initiations.

16 Then the ungodly custom, grown strong with time, was kept as a law,
and at the command of monarchs carved images were worshiped....
Then the ambition of the artisan impelled
even those who did not know the king to intensify their worship...
and the multitude, attracted by the charm of his work,
now regarded as an object of worship the one whom, shortly before,
they had honored as a human being....


Then it was not enough for them to err about the knowledge of God,
but though living in great strife due to ignorance,
they call such great evils peace.
23 For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries,
or hold frenzied revels with strange customs,

24 they no longer keep either their lives or their marriages pure,
but they either treacherously kill one another, or grieve one another by adultery,
25 and all is a raging riot of blood and murder, theft and deceit, corruption, faithlessness, tumult, perjury,
26 confusion over what is good, forgetfulness of favors,
defiling of souls, sexual perversion,
disorder in marriages, adultery, and debauchery.

27 For the worship of idols not to be named
is the beginning and cause and end of every evil.
28 For their worshipers either rave in exultation,

or prophesy lies, or live unrighteously, or readily commit perjury;
29 for because they trust in lifeless idols
they swear wicked oaths and expect to suffer no harm.
But just penalties will overtake them on two counts:
because they thought wrongly about God in devoting themselves to idols,
and because in deceit they swore unrighteously through contempt for holiness.

Both texts, Wisdom and Romans, are therefore talking strictly about idolatrous pagan worship of kings/emperors as living gods in the form of carved images (as well as animal images) in the context of mystery cults with secretive rituals characterized by sacrifices, violence and frenzied sexual debauchery.

I would be very interested to hear about any atheists who "worship kings/emperors as living gods in the form of carved images (as well as animal images) in the context of mystery cults with secretive rituals characterized by sacrifices, violence and frenzied sexual debauchery"... I must admit that I've yet to come across any but maybe I just haven't hung around (yet!) with such fun people :p

You can always figure out who people are, by Romans Chapter one, it's bother's those more than any other people.

The Thread reads, My issues with Romans one.
You see I have No issues with Romans one.
But those who do, Romans one expose's who they really are.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
A hater of god is a maltheist, a person that believes in God but thinks they are evil or has reason to hate God.

The Thread reads, My issues with Romans one.
You see I have No issues with Romans one.
But for Atheists and homosexualls they have an issue with Romans one.

Because Romans one expose's people who they really are. That's why Atheists and homosexualls have a issue, hard time with Romans one.It reveals who they really are.

But for me as a Christian I have No issues with Romans one.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
The verse states that atheists have no excuse, not that they don't exist.

Why do you say you know it is false? You certainly cannot prove it is.
What is an atheist supposed to know that they are with no excuse? No excuse for what?
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
The verse states that atheists have no excuse, not that they don't exist.
Most often the verse has been used to say that everyone knows God created them. If so, it's completely false. What do you interpret it to mean?

Why do you say you know it is false? You certainly cannot prove it is.
You can't prove that everyone has an understanding of God creating things, because that's false. I was an atheist for decades. Now I'm theist and I still don't see any of these invisible signs of creation.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
You see I have No issues with Romans one.
Of course you don't. It's part of your chosen beliefs.

But for Atheists and homosexualls they have an issue with Romans one.

Because Romans one expose's people who they really are. That's why Atheists and homosexualls have a issue, hard time with Romans one.It reveals who they really are.
Yes it exposes some people as not being Christian and part of it as false. Why you bring up homosexuals in this, we can only hazard a guess.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Of course you don't. It's part of your chosen beliefs.


Yes it exposes some people as not being Christian and part of it as false. Why you bring up homosexuals in this, we can only hazard a guess.

Like I said in answering the Thread, I have No Issues with Romans one.
There is none of Romans 1 as being false.
But then for you there maybe.
All because it expose's people who live certain life styles and deny's God's very existence.

Further more, it's not a chosen belief, it's either you accept it or not accept it.

Therefore, there's nothing in Romans 1 to be chosen as a belief, It's all just plain fact.
 
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Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
What is an atheist supposed to know that they are with no excuse? No excuse for what?

To answer you, let's stay with Romans one.

What excuse does an Atheist have for their excuse, but nothing at all. Let's take Romans 1:20, How much of this verse do you believe that Atheists will believe of this Verse 20?

Verse 20, explains everything why Atheists or anyone else are without an excuse. Go Figure
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Like I said in answering the Thread, I have No Issues with Romans one.
There is none of Romans 1 as being false.
Repeating what you wrote earlier on what you believe.

All because it expose's people who live certain life styles and deny's God's very existence.
That's not really true, many homosexuals believe in God whether you have heard of them or not.

I know that God exists, but 1:20 is still false. For decades I had no proof of God, no feeling that it existed. No invisible signs to make it clear.

Further more, it's not a chosen belief, it's either you accept it or not accept it.

Therefore, there's nothing in Romans 1 to be chosen as a belief, It's all just plain fact.
It's not a fact. Many believe it just because they feel it gives them the right to judge and condemn other people. Romans 1:20 is false. What proof do you have of it being true, except you believing it on faith?
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
For the gazillionth time....

Paul, whatever one's opinion as to his statements otherwise, was not referring to atheists but to people worshiping images of human beings and animals as deities, in the context of Roman mystery cults.

Why are folk so obsessed with this completely erroneous atheist misreading that has no basis in the actual text, or indeed it's source text in Wisdom?

This is the most misplaced discussion I've ever come across since the very premise originates from a total misinterpretation of the text under discussion.

There are biblical passages which refer seem to atheists, such as the following Psalm from the Old Testament:


Psalm 14

To the leader. Of David.

1 Fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds;
there is no one who does good.

2 The Lord looks down from heaven on humankind
to see if there are any who are wise,
who seek after God.

3 They have all gone astray, they are all alike perverse;
there is no one who does good,
no, not one.​


But Romans chapter 1 is not among them. Sorry.
 
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Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Repeating what you wrote earlier on what you believe.


That's not really true, many homosexuals believe in God whether you have heard of them or not.

I know that God exists, but 1:20 is still false. For decades I had no proof of God, no feeling that it existed. No invisible signs to make it clear.


It's not a fact. Many believe it just because they feel it gives them the right to judge and condemn other people. Romans 1:20 is false. What proof do you have of it being true, except you believing it on faith?

You say homosexuals believe, That doesn't mean anything.
Now that's to funny.rofl
You saying Romans 1:20 is false.
Romans 1:20 Just convicts your guilt, of knowing that Atheists do not believe in God nor anything that has to do with God.

Romans 1:27--32 Convicts homosexualls, That's why homosexualls guilt Convicts them.

The only reason you say Romans 1:20 is false, because your guilt convicts you. Knowing Romans 1:20 points you out.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You pick your version of the Bible and I'll pick mine. Isn't that how Christian apologetics works?

Need to prove Noah's ark was made of gopher wood? Then quote Genesis 6:14 the 21st Century King James Version

"Make thee an ark of gopherwood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt cover it within and without with pitch."​

Think it was made out of cypress wood instead? Then quote Genesis 6:14 the Easy-to-Read Version

"Use cypress wood and build a boat for yourself. Make rooms in the boat and cover it with tar inside and out."​

How about pine trees? Then quote Genesis 6:14 the Geneva Bible

" Make thee an Ark of pine trees: thou shalt make cabins in the Ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch."​
Change your mind and feel it was made out of teak instead? Then quote Genesis 6:14 The Message


“Build yourself a ship from teak wood. Make rooms in it. Coat it with pitch inside and out.
But maybe all you need is an ark made out of just good old wood. Then quote Genesis 6:14 the Common English Bible

"so make a wooden ark. Make the ark with nesting places and cover it inside and out with tar."​

Or to put a finer point on it, maybe resinous wood. Then quote the Tree of Life Version

"Make a boat from resinous wood, sealing it with tar; and construct decks and stalls throughout the ship."​

.
:D For sure the Common English Bible has it right! Everyone else was, in essence, was saying "Not sure what kind but it might be but it might have been".

But some people love majoring on the minors. ;)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
First... I think Rom 1:18 qualifies the people He is talking about. "who hold the truth in unrighteousness"

There are many who are unrighteous but don't hold the truth and ultimately everyone is in the same boat and has the hope of Jesus Christ. These that Paul is talking about are those who hold the truth, snub the truth and go headlong into what they want to do regardless of the knowledge they have of God

Addtionally, judging isn't the answer.

Eph 2:3 Actually all of us were like them and lived according to our natural desires, doing whatever suited the wishes of our own bodies and minds. In our natural condition we, like everyone else, were destined to suffer God's anger.

So, rather than finger pointing, it's about thumb pointing... me.

IMV, the problem here is that we read Rom 1 and forget that Romans is about and eliminate all subsequent chapters. Romans is about hope and a future. That everyone sins. That forgiveness is for everyone and is a gift. That righteousness has nothing to do with what you are doing or what you have done but about what God wants to give to you, have for you and will do for you.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
The Thread reads, My issues with Romans one.
You see I have No issues with Romans one.
But for Atheists and homosexualls they have an issue with Romans one.

Because Romans one expose's people who they really are. That's why Atheists and homosexualls have a issue, hard time with Romans one.It reveals who they really are.

But for me as a Christian I have No issues with Romans one.
I know where your going with this but I'm not in agreement with some of your presumptions on people's motives. There are theists who are asking the same questions about certain verses regarding unbelief. I'm sorry but saying homosexuality is some sort of curse needs proving, that they "have no excuse" and they are "exposed" ok I get it but the OP specifically avoids using authority as a scapegoat for honest discussion. If you were to say that theists are not real theists unless they are Christian, that might be more in line with what Romans one is trying to say which is when you have theists asking you questions about it. Having an accusatory tone towards atheists or lesbians is not the aim here.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
In our natural condition we, like everyone else, were destined to suffer God's anger.
First of all, I really like your post overall-- that's the good news. :) Now for the bad.:(

With the above, it really doesn't answer the question as to why, assuming we take these narratives literally, would God punish innocent people, such as we read in Exodus whereas God supposedly "hardened Pharaoh's heart" that led to the mass slaughter of innocents, including the Angel of Death? If I slaughtered innocents, what would you think of me? [probably no worse then you already do :(]

It's narratives like this whereas I simply cannot accept, and I never been able to accept it btw, a literalist approach to interpretation.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Then why does it matter?
Because beliefs have consequences, both in terms of our own personal character plus how we may deal with others. Neither our beliefs nor our actions operate alone. How we may interpret the scriptures is not entirely just personal, thus we have seen religious beliefs being used for both good and evil.

So, do you believe God massacred innocents as depicted in Exodus? A simply yes or no will do.
 
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