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How are these Great Beings explained?

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You seem to have an insatiable desire to find common ground. Of course there is common ground, I've never denied it.

Yes it is insatiable, to me it is life that I must live, that we are all but bothers and sisters in this journey of life. That we are here to help each other.

I notice you are about 15 Hours behind us. Thus I live in the future :D;) ha ha, God loves laughter!

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The second sounds as though the governing body acts as the pope in authority has to scriptures in which The Church put together before the protestants took books they felt wasnt divine.

Interesting

Its a useful comparison. The Catholic church is the largest Faith community on the planet with over 800,000 million adherents and the papal authority is based on Christ appointing Peter as His successor. It is often said that ex-Catholics make good Baha'is. They more readily understand that administrative framework of the Baha'i faith that has similarities to Catholicism. All authority in the Baha'i Faith is divested in elected institutions. On the other hand we have the institution of the counsellors whose members are all appointed.

The ultimate authority rests with the guidance of Baha'u'llah Himself and the Universal House of Justice can clarify what the writings are saying when there are difficulties. They also oversee the general direction of the worldwide community and provide guidance.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The first is odd. I see inconsistances in my faith and it doesnt invalidate the facts they teach. What is wrong with inconsistencies?

Consider the analogy of the Manifestation of God being a Divine Physician that perceives the ills of humanity and provides the remedy. The physician provides advise that is clear, consistent, and effective. For Baha'is the Divine physician for today is Baha'u'llah.

How can a physician truly be said to be a healer if He says only "You work out your own illness and sort out the medication you think will suit you the best?"
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Very confusing, as is common in this thread.

So we see virtues differently, as I sort of suspected. To me, virtues are independent of God totally. I don't see belief in God as a virtue at all. It's just a belief.

So lets keep exploring. Virtues can be seen as the Rays of the Sun, they radiate from the Sun but they are not the Sun.

The Sun does not cease radiating these Virtues, but they are not the Sun in Essence. Also a Ray of virtue 2000 years ago is the same as the Ray of Virtue in this day, but it is not the same outward Ray.

Can we be reconcilled in that view, or do you explain that in another way?

Regards Tony
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Its a useful comparison. The Catholic church is the largest Faith community on the planet with over 800,000 million adherents and the papal authority is based on Christ appointing Peter as His successor. It is often said that ex-Catholics make good Baha'is. They more readily understand that administrative framework of the Baha'i faith that has similarities to Catholicism. All authority in the Baha'i Faith is divested in elected institutions. On the other hand we have the institution of the counsellors whose members are all appointed.

The ultimate authority rests with the guidance of Baha'u'llah Himself and the Universal House of Justice can clarify what the writings are saying when there are difficulties. They also oversee the general direction of the worldwide community and provide guidance.

The first question?

I forget very easily so I repeat a lot since I wont remember what I asked thousand posts later if you reply to my posts way later....which sometimes is the case. I repeat so much where I finally got Tony to say he ignored my question. :( I do this to everyone.

What is wrong with inconsistencies in faith wehthef it be Hindu as you mentioned or hypothetically, if you like, bahai?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I wouldn't want you to believe or disbelieve in Them, because I believe it is upto you what yo believe or disbelieve.
However on the basis of what you are referring, I do not have any problem believing in Them.
What you are referring here, are the verses of Bible or the Quran which threatens with Hell and Fire.
The thing is that, if I look at such verses, then I must not also deny some other verses which explains the idea behind them, because in that case I would be only reading a part of Their Books, while denying or ignoring another part. What I mean here, is I am also aware of certain verses in Quran or Bible that says, some of the Verses of These Holy Books are Symbolic or Figurative, and their interpretation would be unknown generally to mankind until the Day of Resurrection, when the Promised Manifestation comes, unseal the Book and reveals its interpretation. There are many Evidences for this in Quran, Islamic Traditions, as well as the Bible. For instance Quran 3:7 and 7:53. As well as many traditions about the Qaim who provides unknown interpretations. And from the Bible, many verses indicate the same, such as Daniel vision, saying the vision of the End is to remain sealed, and the Book of Revelation saying the Book seals will be open when Christ returns. Therefore, since in my view Bahaullah is the Return of Christ, and He had Unsealed the Book, I see that the Fire or Hell that Prophets of the past talked about, are meant to be symbolic, having a spiritual significant. God is fair, He does not burn the unbelievers.
What happens to absolutely evil people in the next world? Is there some torment they experience for hurting and killing people?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Consider the analogy of the Manifestation of God being a Divine Physician that perceives the ills of humanity and provides the remedy. The physician provides advise that is clear, consistent, and effective. For Baha'is the Divine physician for today is Baha'u'llah.

How can a physician truly be said to be a healer if He says only "You work out your own illness and sort out the medication you think will suit you the best?"

What is wrong with inconsistences? You mention christian and hindu have them. What is wrong with that -as well-?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I've seen disdain in all directions, from Hindu sect to Hindu sect, from Christian denomination to another Christian denomination, from Sunni to Shia to Ammadiyya, from Baha'i to everyone, and everyone to Baha'i, and many more, like theist atheist, and vice versa. It remains within the individual adherent, and isn't overwhelmingly specific to any religion. It's also is used as an accusation, as you just did. For example, when I've expressed a non-belief in a certain concept in a faith I'm not in, I've occasionally gotten the response, 'I see. So you hate us, do you?"

So, like other trigger words, I'd prefer to avoid it as much as possible. Sometimes that's admittedly difficult.

There need not be any disdain at all. Besides, there are degrees of disdain.

Its all easier said than done of course. Hindus have had a tough time with the Muslims and then the Christians. The Baha'is could feel hard done by, with the massacres perpetrated by the Muslims. We try to rise above that as I'm sure you do too.

We are all human after all.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
So lets keep exploring. Virtues can be seen as the Rays of the Sun, they radiate from the Sun but they are not the Sun.

The Sun does not cease radiating these Virtues, but they are not the Sun in Essence. Also a Ray of virtue 2000 years ago is the same as the Ray of Virtue in this day, but it is not the same outward Ray.

Can we be reconcilled in that view, or do you explain that in another way?

To me virtues are just honourable character traits, nothing to do with rays of the Sun, God, Essence, or all the other Baha'ispeak you keep using. But if you want to speak that language, be my guest.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is wrong with inconsistencies in faith wehthef it be Hindu as you mentioned or hypothetically, if you like, bahai?

Sorry to butt in, but I remember an answer. All inconsistencies are of our making was my answer and if I did not add it then I will now, it is our journey in life to consider how we balance them.

Personally and Logically I think there is answers to be found in all matters. We would not have a searching mind if there was not.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What happens to absolutely evil people in the next world? Is there some torment they experience for hurting and killing people?

The greatest torment I see can be had right now, that is not knowing of our God. I can see no greater torment.

So there is Knowing God...Heaven and less knowledge of God....leading to no knowledge..Hell.

Regards Tony
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
There need not be any disdain at all. Besides, there are degrees of disdain.

We are all human after all.

I agree. To me the attempt to convert, proselytizing, evangelising, is disrespectful of another's belief system, else it wouldn't happen. It's not disdain, but on the continuum somewhere between annoyed at, to hate. Disdain seems closer to hate.

We do have the common enemy in radical Islam. Not very safe to be a Hindu in Pakistan or Bangladesh.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To me virtues are just honourable character traits, nothing to do with rays of the Sun, God, Essence, or all the other Baha'ispeak you keep using. But if you want to speak that language, be my guest.

Off to Church, catch you later, have a great night and many great dreams.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
What is wrong with inconsistences? You mention christian and hindu have them. What is wrong with that -as well-?

How about if you want to travel from one town to another and I don't explain myself clearly, give you the wrong directions, or provide a route that takes twice as long as it should?

How about I provide the guidance based on roads that used to be present 100 years ago but a major highway has recently been built?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Sorry to butt in, but I remember an answer. All inconsistencies are of our making was my answer and if I did not add it then I will now, it is our journey in life to consider how we balance them.

Personally and Logically I think there is answers to be found in all matters. We would not have a searching mind if there was not.

Regards Tony

I asked you a different question. I asked I think three or so times until you said you ignored what I asked. I asked you I think three different questions a page or two ago. I figure you ignore them too.
Then I answer you quextion and you cut the convo short. Im almost used to it now.

What is wrong with Our inconsistancies? I see inconsistencies in Buddhist and it is a people faith not a god one. Hindus dont fuss over inconsistancies even if they care to find them important in their practice.

So, why is it wrong?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Let me give you from my understanding, some description of the Bahai view generally, so it may hopefully become clear for you, why such example you are referring is not a misquote in our view.

I do this, not because I want to specifically continue debating with regards to the example you pointed out, but because I think, that would give a better understanding of what Bahais consider a correct interpretation, and what they consider a misinterpretation.

Generally, the verses of Scriptures may be understood or interpreted in various ways; however, the correct interpretation is only the one that is established based on the evidences in the Scriptures, Without adding anything from imagination.
For instance, the Bible says one of the disciples of Jesus told Him:
"Let me bury my father",
Now I hope you don't think i am misquoting, just because my quote may be slightly different than Bible.

This statement obviously seems that his father is already dead.
You have suggested that another possibility is that his father has not died yet.
I agree. This is something that we can look into it based on evidences in the Bible.
For instance, if this man had said my father is ill, and old, he may die soon. Let me stay until I bury my father, then this would be an evidence from the Bible, that can be used to support the alternative possibility that the man's father had not died yet.
But, let's ask ourself. Is there any evidence like this, or any other evidence in the Bible that can possibly suggest the man's father had not died yet? Since there is none, this can Only be interpreted in one way! Therefore in this case, in my view there is no contradiction between what Bahaullah says and what is in the Bible.
As regards to misquoting, as I have shown, Bahaullah is not a literal Person, and when He says such a story is written in Bible, He does not not mean as a quote.
For instance, if I was to quote a verse from the Bible from my mind, and I happen to make a little mistake, it would be perhaps forgetting an exact word within a quote. But if we look at the way Bahaullah referred to that story, it is obvious He is retelling the story in His own words. Because He inserts in some part of the story: Jesus "that essence of detachment".

In another passage of the Gospel it is written: “And it came to pass that on a certain day the father of one of the disciples of Jesus had died.” That disciple reporting the death of his father unto Jesus, asked for leave to go and bury him. Whereupon, Jesus, that Essence of Detachment, answered and said: “Let the dead bury their dead.”

It is obvious that, Bahaullah does not think that in the Bible it is written 'that Essence Detachment'. So, is that a misquote?! Or He is telling a story in His own words?
Next, if Bahaullah is telling a story from Bible, but He says it is written so and so, is that a wrong thing to do? No, of course not, because He does not mean literally written. There is no such a rule, that we always have to mean everything we say literally or otherwise we are wrong. And certainly with God, there cannot be such limitations, that He has to mean everything literal, or He is not God!
Again, my purpose of mentioning this example is not because I feel I need to defend, but just to say, firstly, only when an interpretation has a basis from Bible, it can be considered as correct. If it is based on imagination with no support from Bible, it is only a product of imagination. Secondly, suppose it maybe incorrect to say something is written in Bible, but to not mean literally, so, what about the point that Bahaullah is making with regards to Resurrection is not physical, but the Prophets meant spiritual? That is what really matters i think, not to get stuck at such obstacles which perhaps are there for us to pass.
A couple of problems we've already talked about... The Bible says Isaac was the son that was taken to be sacrificed. The New Testament says Jesus came back to life and appeared, ate, spoke and was touched by his disciples. Baha'is take both those plain and obvious stories and change them.

Why? Because they need Ishmael, not Isaac, to be the one Abraham took to be sacrificed. They also can't believe in the possibility that Jesus resurrected. So Baha'is change things in religions to suit their needs.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
How about if you want to travel from one town to another and I don't explain myself clearly, give you the wrong directions, or provide a route that takes twice as long as it should?

How about I provide the guidance based on roads that used to be present 100 years ago but a major highway has recently been built?
New does not mean better. How did thalydomide and valium work out?

Sometimes the old road is far more scenic. If you're in a hurry you miss out.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree. To me the attempt to convert, proselytizing, evangelising, is disrespectful of another's belief system, else it wouldn't happen. It's not disdain, but on the continuum somewhere between annoyed at, to hate. Disdain seems closer to hate.

We do have the common enemy in radical Islam. Not very safe to be a Hindu in Pakistan or Bangladesh.

I wonder if the Hindus have similarities to the Jews on RF. They are not out there evangelising (though you get that through ISHKON of course) but playing a tight defensive game. They try to keep everyone out of the Tanakh as you do Hindu practices and beliefs. When someone who isn't Jewish, particular a Christian starts quoting the OT they are quite critical and turning their opponents arguments upside down.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I wonder if the Hindus have similarities to the Jews on RF. They are not out there evangelising (though you get that through ISHKON of course) but playing a tight defensive game. They try to keep everyone out of the Tanakh as you do Hindu practices and beliefs. When someone who isn't Jewish, particular a Christian starts quoting the OT they are quite critical and turning their opponents arguments upside down.

Yes, I think we do have commonalities, in that we defend against misconceptions, but have little concern over what others believe beyond those same misconceptions. It's only our business when someone else makes it our business.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
How about if you want to travel from one town to another and I don't explain myself clearly, give you the wrong directions, or provide a route that takes twice as long as it should?

How about I provide the guidance based on roads that used to be present 100 years ago but a major highway has recently been built?

Adrian. I dont like guessing answers from questions. A buddhist would learn life goes on. Get a map and stop relying on people and GPS over one own directions first. Then when lost because we are given wrong directions, we ground ourselves and keep going.

Funny you mentioned this. My aunts and I got lost in the woods, very heavy witn no signal, dark, no lights. Aunt one tries to find her batteries for GPS. Aunt two says go back the way we came. If I didnt agree with my second aunt we would have been there for hours.

Some people need GPS, some need people, some just Want to find it themselves with a map. Others trust their own senses.

What is wrong with inconsistacies?
 
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