How are these Great Beings explained?

[TransmutingSoul]

So saying other faiths are blind, deluded, diseased, superstitious, walking away from God, etc. isn't judgement, it's compliments?

Making sense of Doctrinal belief is not Judging an individual person.

I can say the Trinity is a doctrine made of man concluded by reading the scriptures attributed to the Doctrine and then also considering what Muhammad and Baha'u'llah have said about the subject.

I have judged no man but drawn my own conclusions.

All those that have not drawn those same conclusions are not judged by me.

The Great Beings have explained who is the Judge of us all.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

up, I've been reminding our Baha'i' acquaintances throughout this thread that atheists are human too, lol. But there are only 9 accepted manifestations, as indicated by Baha'u'llah himself. The rest of us are just plain out of luck. You've turned your back on God, I'm afraid.

That is a wrong reminder, if we go back through this thread I know this has been referenced before, now I just say the following;

The Number of Manifestatioms listed in the Koran is 25

Prophets and messengers in Islam - Wikipedia

Baha'u'llah Lists some more and has said the number is many, many times more, but true records have been lost for many of them. They also go back a very long time,well before records existed.

That is only on this earth as well, as then we have a Universe of possibilities to consider.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Aup, I've been reminding our Baha'i' acquaintances throughout this thread that atheists are human too, lol. But there are only 9 accepted manifestations, as indicated by Baha'u'llah himself. The rest of us are just plain out of luck. You've turned your back on God, I'm afraid.

My father was the main atheist in my life I stand up for, the true honest and moral citizen that he was. You're probably number 2 on my list though, as I don't associate with many atheists in real life.

Ah...! My point is slightly nerdy, I admit, but it was the Christians who were first called Atheists, because they refused to acknowledge the Roman and Greek Gods.

And what of those who do not acknowledge the Gods of the North American Tribes, or of the Druids...... and more? We do not even know of them all.

Quite simply, we need to acknowledge each others' beliefs, religions, cultures and opinions, so as to somehow fit all into as harmonius a World as possible.

The only Western Institutions that I can think of might be the Quakers, or the Universalists, but there is no Abrahamic based religion that could blend and flex towards that concept, so they are all just historical Great Beings now.

 

[Vinayaka]

Making sense of Doctrinal belief is not Judging an individual person.

Sure. When that doctrinal belief is judgmental, the statement falls apart.

The Number of Manifestatioms listed in the Koran is 25

Prophets and messengers in Islam - Wikipedia

Baha'u'llah Lists some more and has said the number is many, many times more, but true records have been lost for many of them. They also go back a very long time,well before records existed.

Yes, glad you reminded us of all these contradictions. The 'list' seems to be a different list every time we hear it. If only somebody could make up their mind and stick with it.

Manifestation of God - Wikipedia

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sure. When that doctrinal belief is judgmental, the statement falls apart.


Yes, glad you reminded us of all these contradictions. The 'list' seems to be a different list every time we hear it. If only somebody could make up their mind and stick with it.

Manifestation of God - Wikipedia

As you yourself suggest that the study of the Books attributed to the Great Beings is not warranted or needed, to hold that the are contradictions in scripture is a stange stance to make. As your statements are not provable without those same books.

It could be then all the contradictions are but of our own minds and if we did look we would find the answers.

I have found this to be so. It is but my thoughts that divide. The Great Beings are the source of the Universal Attractive Force that hold the Universe in Harmony.

"....Divine and all-encompassing Wisdom hath ordained that motion be an inseparable concomitant of existence, whether inherently or accidentally, spiritually or materially. This movement must be governed by some check or rein, some regulator or director, otherwise order will be disrupted and the spheres and bodies will fall from the heavens. For this reason God brought into being a universal attractive force between these bodies to hold sway over them and govern them, a force deriving from the firm ties, the mighty correspondence and affinity that exist between the realities of these limitless worlds. By the operation of this attractive force those holy and resplendent suns, with their luminous worlds, satellites and planets, circling and orbiting in their heavens, at once exerted attraction and were subject to it, induced motion and were themselves moved, began orbiting and set into orbit other bodies, shone forth and caused others to shine....." Tablet of the Universe" Abdul'baha (Provisional translation)

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

The Great Beings are the source of the Universal Attractive Force that hold the Universe in Harmony.

So this 'Universal Attractive Force' (I assume that is more Baha'ispeak) can't possibly exist without the Great Beings?

 

[Vinayaka]

Fortunately, I follow a faith where quoting isn't necessary to understand and experience the validity of our faith and The Buddha's teachings.

Thank goodness. One side quoting incessantly, in a debate, is quite enough.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think for individuals to be well rounded (my version of success) some sense of contemplation, down time, 'spiritual' or otherwise, is very beneficial. Total focus on a singular aspect of life isn't healthy, and that includes religion. It's what's happened to turn someone into a fundamentalist.

One would think that in today’s world of education we would be well past things like terrorism and so on. It just seems such a waste and all it does is turn people away from religion when they see these things going on.

 

[Vinayaka]

One would think that in today’s world of education we would be well past things like terrorism and so on. It just seems such a waste and all it does is turn people away from religion when they see these things going on.

I think there are many factors. One is mental illness, (the lone wolf), another is flock mentality and a place to belong. (ISIS) Yet another is age-old long term feuds (Tamil versus Sinhalese in Sri Lanka). It's not something i can personally relate to at all, but there are a lot of things in this world that make no sense to me. Tough to judge when we haven't walked in those shoes. Many of us in the west have lived only in ridiculously safe and friendly environments. It's made us too naive in many ways. My eyes were opened somewhat by association with the Sri Lankans, some of whom were refugees. Did you know there is a refugee campin India of Sri Lankans of about 100 000 people who've been in limbo for over 30 years? Long since forgotten about by the rest of the planet. But the real concern is in Yemen.

I complain about a poor driver or the temperature here. It's absurd.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think you missed the point of my post which was about the validity of comparing Hinduism with other religions. My comments about Krishna took centre stage. That wasn't my point at all. I'll rephrase it.

Hinduism appears to be about traditions and customs and a way of life in India that has evolved over thousands of years. So I wonder if Hinduism for many people in India is about being Indian and born into Indian customs and traditions. I wonder if for many Indians there isn't a great deal of thought and reflection that goes into religion as its simply a way of life that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Although obviously now, my words go uncognised, I'll repeat them. I don't worship Krishna. I'm A Saivite. I worship Siva. Krishna is not a 'manifestation', but an avatar, and He is God for Vaishnavites)

I know you are a Saivite and do not worship Krishna.

Thank you for reminding me Krishna is God for the Vaishnavites. But He was also a man who walked amongst men, was He not?

I'm aware of the concept of avatars in Hinduism as you are aware of the concept of the 'return' of Manifestations in the Baha'i Faith.

Krishna is not the giant among teachers. He's God. There is no one giant among Gods. Vishnu, Siva, Shakti, Mother Kali, depends on who is Supreme for each adherent.

Sure. On the other hand more than half of Hindus are Vaishnavites are they not?

Vaishnavism - New World Encyclopedia

Giants among teachers ... sure Adi Shankara, Sri Caitanya, Swami Chinmayanada, Sri Ramakrishna, Tirumular, Patanjali, Vivekenanda, Ramana Maharishi, and countless other enlightened sages that have temporarily inhabited physical bodies for the betterment of mankind.

Yes, all wise men and teachers. Are they really comparable to God though?

Adi Shankara - Wikipedia

Chinmayananda Saraswati - Wikipedia

Tirumular - Wikipedia

Patanjali - Wikipedia

Swami Vivekananda - Wikipedia

Ramana Maharshi - Wikipedia

The devotees look upon Ramakrishna as the incarnation of the supreme Brahman.

Ramakrishna - Wikipedia

Sri Caitanya the founder of Gaudiya Vaishnavism was thought by some to be Krishna Himself.

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu - Wikipedia

Should we really put any of these men in the same category as Krishna or Siva?

But then, what do I know?

You know a lot. You have been a Hindu for 40 years. I'm just trying to make sense of what you are saying, that's all.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So this 'Universal Attractive Force' (I assume that is more Baha'ispeak) can't possibly exist without the Great Beings?

Big Question and I would say Yes. The Tablet says; "...By the operation of this attractive force those holy and resplendent suns, with their luminous worlds, satellites and planets, circling and orbiting in their heavens, at once exerted attraction and were subject to it, induced motion and were themselves moved, began orbiting and set into orbit other bodies, shone forth and caused others to shine. In this manner they became arranged in a perfectly ordered system, each one a handiwork of consummate fashioning and manifest beauty, each one an enduring creation and a conclusive proof. Glory be to Him Who attracted them, laid firm hold on them, imbued them with effulgence, ordered them and set them in motion; and far from His glory be that which any of his creatures can affirm of Him or attribute to Him..."

So to me this covers all the Great Beings and the range of Lesser Prophets

The Suns, The Illumined Wolds, Satellites and Planets all orbiting and this set in orbit other bodies (maybe the believers).

The Manifestations, the Lesser Prophets, the Disciples, the Saints, the inspired and the believers, we are all connected. A Universal Attractive Force.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

I was referring this what you posted here.


Its a gross analysis of another's religion as if inconsistencies are not only different than abrahamics view but totally illogical. If to compare, what is the significance spiritually to have consistances in scripture that Hinduism, from your perspective, does not? How does consistancy validate abrahamic scripture as opposed to Hindu?

I was asking Tony questions like this. Why would he or amy bahai maybe believe that by reading bahaullah's words we would somehow be enlightened to the truth. Maybe you have insight but I think that one post was totally out of your character.

My words: Why would inconsistancies be an issue to abrahamics when Hindu believe in god (and point to your god) as well?

As I recall, the Baha'is were being accused of contradictions and inconsistencies. I was simply highlighting the obvious contradictions of Hinduism. One Hindu believes in many gods, another in one god providing it is not the God of Abraham, and yet another is an atheist. The reasons for those contradictions were explained by @Vinayaka as relating to Hinduism being an umbrella term for many religions and traditions. That's reasonable.

Hindus from what I can see make statements about respecting diversity, see their own faith as supreme, and don't believe in the God of Abraham. That is a generalisation, but its what I seem to be hearing from two Hindus currently on this thread and from my reading.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But there are only 9 accepted manifestations, as indicated by Baha'u'llah himself. The rest of us are just plain out of luck. You've turned your back on God, I'm afraid.

Thanks, Vinayaka. Bahaullah did not talk about Indic religions. They were mentioned later by Abdul Baha.

.. the correct interpretation is only the one that is established based on the evidences in the Scriptures, ..

What evidence you have that there is a God and just one God in the world and that Bahaullah is his manifestation?

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is true in a sense that Bahais believe that Bahaullah is the Spiritual return of Krishna.

Hindus will not associate any riff-raff with Krishna. Krishna will return after 425,000 years - that is clearly mentioned in our scriptures. All those who claim to be so are charlatans for us.

Zoroaster, a Non-Abrahamic Prophet.

Zoroaster was a renegade to the Indo-Iranian religion, a heretic, who believed in one God while there are many. He was the first to say that there is one God. He shares the responsibility for much of the blood-shed and sorrow in the world today. We do not have Angels, prophets or messengers in Hinduism.

 

[CG Didymus]

Thats really the story of Acts and the Apostles letters, isn't it? They were doing what they were asked to do. Spread the gospels far and wide.

Perhaps stories about a God that rose from the dead resonated more with the Greeks than the Jews. Paul found the missionary field was far more fertile amidst the gentiles than his own people.

Wasn't a belief in a physical resurrection part of the gospel that early Christians taught? So if the Baha'is are correct about the resurrection, then the Jews were right about rejecting Christianity.

 

[CG Didymus]

Problem for whom?

I don't know the answer to either "why" or "wherefore," and I am not greatly worried, since there's nothing I can do about it. "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,.." If there's something the House of Justice wants me to do or stop doing I am sure they will let me know. Until that day I have to assume they are happy with things just the way they are.

So if it's not a problem for me, and not a problem for the UHJ, why is it anyone else's problem?

It's a problem for me. It makes me question their ability to act justly and fairly. Your trust and dedication is admirable, but it still bothers me.

 

[arthra]

What I like to encourage is the common base say between the Vedic and the Avestan

Review:

Avestan, Iranian & Zoroastrian Languages

There's also the possible influence according to John Clifford Holt mention of the Maitreya legend influenced by the Saosyant soteriological beliefs so there's much more than meets the eye at first glance. See p. 2
https://www.amazon.com/Anagatavamsa-Desana-Chronicle-Be-Tradition/dp/812081133X
The book is well worth the price.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Wasn't a belief in a physical resurrection part of the gospel that early Christians taught? So if the Baha'is are correct about the resurrection, then the Jews were right about rejecting Christianity.

The belief about the resurrection was part of early Christianity. However to reject Christianity because of this belief in the resurrection was akin to throwing the baby out with the bath water IMHO.

There are references to resurrection in the OT but in needs to be understood that the Jews had a very different concept of an afterlife.

Where do the Hebrew Scriptures prophesy the death and resurrection of the Messiah?

Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife

Argubaly the resurrection narrative greatly contributed to the Christian concept of a life after death.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is only one correct interpretation. Will the real Christianity please stand up?

Before Baha'u'llah's "correct" interpretation, did anyone have the correct interpretation of Christianity?

 

[CG Didymus]

I personally wouldn’t live in a known regular cyclone path or on an earthquake belt. But each to his own.

Should all people leave places like Puerto Rico?