How are these Great Beings explained?

[siti]

In the first case, he writes "in the first scroll (safr), which is attributed to Matthew, on the occasion when they asked about the signs of the manifestation to come, he answered, "Immediately after the oppression etc..." It's a direct quote from Matthew, given first in Arabic.

In the second case he writes, "in the three scrolls attributed to Luke, Mark and John it is mentioned/recalled (dhekr ast)..."

Yes - so the "scrolls" here are specifically the four canonical "Gospels" of the Christian Bible as the word "Gospel" would be understood by the averagely intelligent English reader with little or no knowledge of Baha'i tradition (i.e. me)?

So there is no reason (for me) to assume that when the translator renders a later passage thus:

In another passage of the Gospel it is written: “And it came to pass that on a certain day the father of one of the disciples of Jesus had died. That disciple reporting the death of his father unto Jesus, asked for leave to go and bury him. Whereupon, Jesus, that Essence of Detachment, answered and said: “Let the dead bury their dead.”

that Baha'u'llah would have had in mind anything other than the actual Gospel account in Luke (or Matthew) in which Jesus does indeed answer the disciple "let the dead bury their dead" (direct quote highlighting the need for the disciple to focus on spiritual matters but not necessarily encouraging him to disrespect his father's memory by not turning up for his actual funeral) but which does not, in fact, state that the man's father had died - and yet this is presented as part of the same quote/outline of what the Gospel says in Baha'u'llah's account of it?

What I am trying to say is that even if it is not intended as a direct quote it is presented as a narrative intended to reflect what the Gospel account actually says. Only it doesn't - it is an imperfect, erroneous reflection of what the Gospel account actually says even if it is a reasonable encapsulation of what might have transpired (which of course we have no way of knowing).

All of which would be entirely irrelevant if it were not for the fact that the claim of infallibility was made. How could an infallible Manifestation possibly imagine that the Gospel actually said something that it did not, in fact, say?

 

[CG Didymus]

Most Baha'is know about a concept in the Faith that is kind of requirement to independently investigate truth or reality.
I truthfully can say I studied and investigated Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and still do! One reason I became a Baha'i was because I didn't like rejecting Krishna, Buddha or Christ or Muhammad or Zoroaster, etc. to be something else....

That always sounds nice, but that is what some of us have been complaining about... Baha'is do reject many of the traditional beliefs of the different religions. So it is merely a Baha'i version of those religions that is being accepted.

 

[CG Didymus]

One does not have to fight off natural disasters. We have to learn to live in harmony with nature. When we do learn to live in true harmony, as a human race under our One God, we have the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven.

Then I suspect we have to learn to live in harmony with the Universe and its diversity of creatures we will then discover.

Regards Tony

How many people got killed by the Hurricanes, the earthquake in Mexico, and the wild fires in California? Were they out of harmony with nature?

 

[CG Didymus]

Trash and more trash. Just like Bible thumpers or Qur'an quoters. This is a discussion forum and not a proselityzing forum.No, As you know I am a strong atheist and a Hindu. There is no essential requirement in Hinduism to be a theist. Even Vinayaka is not theist in the regular sense of the word. I reject Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Shiva as Gods and Durga as Goddess.Yeah, we consider that, the freedom to question and arrive at our own conclusions, as the greatest quality of Hinduism (no questions barred). We have thousands of scriptures, thousands of views and more than a billion adherents. Why should they all have just one view? You see contradictions and inconsistencies because you have not studied Hinduism. It is the most democratic religion in the world.

Adrian says, "There are clearly much more contradictions and inconsistencies in Hinduism." Yet, Baha'is say there are no contradictions and inconsistencies between the Baha'i Faith and Hinduism and every other religion? That's kinda inconsistent.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah asks us to search and ask those questions of Him. He assures us we will find the answers. In this journey paitence is unavoidably neccessary.

Regards Tony

No, but I'm talking about those that join the Baha'i Faith or some other religion and then find something they don't agree with.

I think that is relative. There will always be something better or a higher goal and we have still yet to see what humanity can achieve in a world of peace when budgets are dedicated to life and not arms. We have yet to see what a society will look like based upon virtues and good character but it is a worthy goal to strive for here.

As you know a lot of cities are built on fault lines and cyclone paths. We could build elsewhere.

So I guess I should move out of California? Where on Earth do you think it's safe?

 

[CG Didymus]

Was there any questions you had about the concept of infallibility? I avoid using the word in an interfaith discussion, but it has its place.



We are always free to question and doubt. We are free to join and leave but we need to understand what it means to be a Baha'i. In being a Baha'i we believe in God, Baha'u'llah as God's manifestation for today, The Bab as the forerunner, Abdu'l-Baha as Baha'u'llah's successor and Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice beyond that. I think as a new Baha'i we just keep questioning. Everyone understands. Many of us have been there. If you decide its not what you really believe, you are free to leave and there is no shunning of ex-Baha'is like there are in some Faith groups. I keep in contact with a couple of ex-Baha'is.



I haven't been part of a Christian Faith community for a very long time. I am part of a very conservative Christian medical centre that was Christian only in regards to staff but made it open to other faiths earlier this year. Having said that, they knew I was a Baha'i when I joined six years ago. That's been an interesting experience at times.



It took me a long time to fully let go of the literal resurrection of Christ. Reading the gospels really makes it sounds as if the resurrection happened.

Interestingly a learned American conservative Christian recommended to me yesterday I look up utube videos of Wallid Shoebat as its the most insightful understanding of revelations he has come across.

Let’s talk about the Bible

Its all about militant Islam being the beast, so its not just a Baha'i POV.

Understanding revelations is entirely optional to being a Baha'i. Being conflicted about resurrections won't matter. What matters is a willingness to live a Baha'i way of life and apply the Baha'u'llah's teachings to your life.

You said, "Reading the gospels reallymakes it sounds as if the resurrection happened." I know. It's almost like they believe it really did happen.

So now we've got Christians saying Jesus rose from the dead. We've got Baha'is saying it didn't happen, so how can we blame the Jews that also didn't believe it? Yet, Baha'is will say that they were blind to the fact Jesus was there Messiah? And then it got worse when Christians came up with Bible "truths" that Jesus was God, that Jesus was the only way to get to heaven, and all the teachings on Satan and hell.

So what did the Jews that believed and became Christians get into?

 

[CG Didymus]

I think your question is very valid. When I first accepted the Faith there were things I still wasn’t sure about but two years later when I really believed I asked to join again but they said my membership was already accepted.

So I think CG that we are always a ‘work in progress’ and we will always have questions and doubts, so along with investigation it also requires faith and trust to commit to a belief.

For me the entire issue is ‘ Is Baha’u’llah Who He claims to be according to my own personal independent investigation?

As it’s a resounding ‘yes’ for me personally, it follows then I trust in the station of Abdul-Baha invested by Baha’u’llah, the infallibility conferred by Him upon the House of Justice and Abdul-Baha’s appointment in His Will of Shoghi Effendi.

It all helps when it’s in writing so it’s not a he said she said argument but written down clearly unlike Islam or Christianity which had no will or clear successorship or what powers if any were invested in them.

The popes claim of infallibility was not recorded in a will of Christ or Islam’s true successorship by Muhammad so these religions don’t have a single leadership appointed to whom all their followers could turn.

Why didn’t Christ write a will or Muhammad Who oversaw the recording of the Quran for 23 years? Muhammad tried to write a will but one version is he was too sick to record it the other version is they delayed bringing Him a pen so He could not appoint Ali. Both Sunni and Shi’ah have different versions.

In Christ’s time was it feasible, I don’t know. We’re people then ready for the concept of conferred infallibility? Even today people are strongly opposed to it but in this age it might work whereas in past ages it could not have been implemented.

For Christians, Jesus never died. And between Him and the Holy Spirit, they are guiding true Christians. But most of what they believe about God and Jesus is from the New Testament. Which is then fallibly interpreted a hundred different ways.

 

[CG Didymus]

Do explain how that passage has any reference to doing it the Baha'i way;

I post the meat of the quote again so you might read it and explain how;

"....The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation....."

Regards Tony

So the "Baha'i" way is to have fallible, corruptible, deceitful men figure it out?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How many people got killed by the Hurricanes, the earthquake in Mexico, and the wild fires in California? Were they out of harmony with nature?

Yes we are out of Harmony with Nature. This is a much more difficult subject than Prophecy. It has a lot to do with the collective mind of Man. We are not separate from the environmemt we live in.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, but I'm talking about those that join the Baha'i Faith or some other religion and then find something they don't agree with

This is a quite normal situation. It is a radical change from today's perceived Morality just for starters.

Faith is a journey of tests and trials, it is a journey of making ones self better.

"Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: "Do men think when they say 'We believe' they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?" [Qur'án 29:2].(Kitáb-i-Íqán, ¶8, pp. 8-9)

This is a vast subject and a great subject to study and come to terms with, this link has many passages to consider on this subject;

Dealing with Tests and Difficulties

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, but I'm talking about those that join the Baha'i Faith or some other religion and then find something they don't agree with.

So I guess I should move out of California? Where on Earth do you think it's safe?

Only in our heart

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Well ya know there oh Vinayaka your "guessing" could be off there just a tad! Before I read a Baha'i book in 1965 I had studied the Gita and met the translator Swami Prabhavananda (Jai Guru Maharajiki Jai!) and Christopher Isherwood and resided in an Ashram in Trabuco Canyon and later learned some Sanskrit but hey it's alright there. Wait that was when I studied some Jaina scriptures. Wait we used to practise Yoga during lunch hour in High School. Oh well! We don't generalize "the rest are wrong!" Lets be friends and bury the hatchet under a pillow. Maybe practice some "Ahimsa" or such.

Was reincarnation taught at those places? How was God defined or described?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So the "Baha'i" way is to have fallible, corruptible, deceitful men figure it out?

We can only judge our own selves, we can not judge the heart of another and what part they are playing in the larger picture.

A good example is the quoted passage. It is said the time will come when we will lay the foundations of peace. Note that America has taken the role of the world police, wheras it has to be a Universal Action. Currently the President is trying to foster that Unity of action against a rogue nation.

The Mind of man is tied to what is required, but until we give more of our own self interests, we hold back the wave of reforms that are now available.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

LOL. You have a single verse that says "we perused not the books which men possess" and hundreds of attestations to Baha'u'llah reading stuff. Instead of adjusting your reading of the first text in line with the evidence of your eyes, you say that in view of [your understanding of a translation of] the first text, the evidence need not be considered !

"Know thou moreover that thy letter reached Our presence and We perceived and perused its contents. We noted the questions thou hast asked and will readily answer thee...."
(Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 183)

"Numerous letters from thee have been presented before Our Throne. We have perused them..."
(Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 196)

"THIS Wronged One hath perused thy letter in the Most Great Prison..."
(Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 266)

"Thine epistle was received, thy question was noted, "
(Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 3)

"ince thy letter had not reached me then, I began with some words of reproach. Now, thy new missive hath dispelled that feeling..."
(Baha'u'llah, Four Valleys, p. 63)

"O thou wayfarer upon the paths of justice,... thy missive arrived. I was apprised thereby of thy question, " (Baha'u'llah, Jawahiru'l-Asrar)

"Your letter reached Us, and We have perused it, with all its allusions..."
(Baha'u'llah, Commentary on the Surah of the Sun - Cole 1994)

"I verily inhaled the pure fragrances of the garment of thy love, and " attained thy very meeting from perusing thy letter. And since I noted thy mention of thy death in God..." (Baha'u'llah, Seven Valleys, p. 2)

"Thy letter was received, and We perused it and heard thy call."
(Tabernacle_of_Unity Oct2014)

"When this wronged one was a child, he read about the subjugation of the Banu-Qurayza, in a book attributed to Mulla Baqir Majlisi, and immediately became so grieved and saddened that the Pen is unable to recount it,.." (Tablet of Banu Qurayza).

"Although We never felt disposed to peruse other peoples' writings, yet as some had questioned Us concerning him, We felt it necessary to refer to his books, in order that We might answer Our questioners with knowledge and understanding. [If he didn't read the book, he would not give a knowledgeable answer] His works, in the Arabic tongue, were, however, not available, until one day a certain man informed Us that one of his compositions, entitled Irshadu'l-'Avam, could be found in this city. ... We sent for the book, and kept it with Us a few days. It was probably referred to twice. The second time, We accidentally came upon the story of the "Mi'raj" of Muhammad, ... We gathered from his statements that unless a man be deeply versed in [20 sciences], he can never attain to a proper understanding "
(Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 184)

So back to the one contradictory quote, in the translation of the Tablet of Wisdom. I think your problem is just a bad translation. The key issue is the word ما which can mean "what" or "not." It comes three times in this sentence, and the first is definitely a "not." "We acquired NOT the learning current among the people." The second one is translated in Tablets of Baha'u'llah as "that which" but I translate is NOT. Along with removing some words in the translation ("all") that are not there in the original, and reading the verb as urednaa rather than aradnaa (passive rather than active, the written forms are the same), ... I understand he is saying that although people know he hasn't read (recited, studied)the books of the people and is not informed of the theological sciences current among them, nevertheless he has been asked to comment on the sayings of the divines and philosophers [even though] there appears before his face a tablet containing what has NOT appeared in the world and is NOT found in books. In other words, they are asking for a discussion of the scholarly tradition, when he can give them his direct insights. "we see it and we write it."


و انّک تعلم انّا ما قرأنا کتبَ القوم و ما اطّلعنا بما عندهم

من العلوم کلّما اردنا[1] أن نذکر بيانات العلماء و الحکماء يظهر ما ظهر فی

العالم و ما فی الکتب و الزّبر فی لوح امام وجه ربّک نری و نکتب

[1] Is this • (ʾaradnā) (form IV) first-person plural past active of أَرَادَ‏ (ʾarāda) or أُرِدْنَا • (ʾuridnā) (form IV), first-person plural past passive of أَرَادَ‏ (ʾarāda)

And why did someone with your knowledge of the Faith get kicked out? If they don't reinstate your membership, there is a problem.

 

[oldbadger]

Actually he was writing about the Bab - who does seem to have had a rather rudimentary education...but then the problem is if Baha'u'llah comes along with the more complete version and is known to have been well-educated, learned and multi-lingual (as he was), the unfaithful could claim that he got his words from books not from God - and that wouldn't do at all so they make this quote apply to all the Manifestations - which is clearly absurd because we know very well that some of them (if they existed at all) were neither ordinary nor unschooled - Moses, for example, was, according to the Biblical tradition, educated in the courts of Pharoah and guided by a Midianite priest (his father-in-law) and served as both a prophet and a priest to Israel. The only option then left to Baha'is is to claim that the previous revelations have been corrupted in transmission so that Moses, for example, was not really the adopted son of Pharoah's daughter or the son-in-law of a rather clever priest, but a humble shepherd who could only have received everything he knew by direct divine revelation. But the problem they leave themselves with in that case, is where then is the scriptural precedent for a new Dispensation which, it is claimed, is foretold in all the previous revelations? Ah! say they...but that part of the revelations has survived intact, by God's grace! And of course the appearance of Baha'u'llah stands as proof! Whereupon the rest of us poor deluded rational folk slap our foreheads for the 14 thousand two hundred and seventh time.

That would explain some of the Bab's writings.
And 'yes', I think that Bahauallah would have received a good private education with a personal tutor.
Subjects? Persian, Arabic and the Koran?
Muslim parents were (and are) extremely devoted to teaching their children the Koran, and where a child achieves Hafiz then both parents gain automatic entry to Heaven because of that.
Bahauallah's parents were obviously Muslims, so I have no doubt that they spent heavily on Bahauallah's Islamic education...... they would have been buying themselves a safeguard ticket to Heaven!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That would explain some of the Bab's writings.
And 'yes', I think that Bahauallah would have received a good private education with a personal tutor.
Subjects? Persian, Arabic and the Koran?
Muslim parents were (and are) extremely devoted to teaching their children the Koran, and where a child achieves Hafiz then both parents gain automatic entry to Heaven because of that.
Bahauallah's parents were obviously Muslims, so I have no doubt that they spent heavily on Bahauallah's Islamic education...... they would have been buying themselves a safeguard ticket to Heaven!

"His simple education was no different from that given to other sons of the Persian nobility. Tutors came to His home to teach reading, writing, and Persian culture, just as they did for the other boys. Husayn-‘Ali learned to read the great Persian poets - 'Attar, Hafez, Rumi - as the other boys did, and to recite from the Koran, the holy book of Islam. He did not study science, for science was viewed with suspicion in nineteenth-century Persia, nor did He study philosophy or religion. Those were left to the mullas and mujtahids -- Muslim scholars who spent long years studying the teachings, laws, and traditions of Islam."

Baha'i Stories: Baha’u’llah’s Childhood and Youth

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

So what did the Jews that believed and became Christians get into?

Thats really the story of Acts and the Apostles letters, isn't it? They were doing what they were asked to do. Spread the gospels far and wide.

Perhaps stories about a God that rose from the dead resonated more with the Greeks than the Jews. Paul found the missionary field was far more fertile amidst the gentiles than his own people.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

And why did someone with your knowledge of the Faith get kicked out? If they don't reinstate your membership, there is a problem.

Problem for whom?

I don't know the answer to either "why" or "wherefore," and I am not greatly worried, since there's nothing I can do about it. "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,.." If there's something the House of Justice wants me to do or stop doing I am sure they will let me know. Until that day I have to assume they are happy with things just the way they are.

So if it's not a problem for me, and not a problem for the UHJ, why is it anyone else's problem?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not a fair comparison at all, as Hinduism is an umbrella term, and a quite recent one at that, in history.

In a sense I agree. Hinduism isn't a religion like the Abrahamic faiths or even Buddhism for that matter. Buddhism has Buddha as a founder and we have writings that can be attributed to Buddha's teaching. Hinduism appears to be about traditions and customs and a way of life in India that has evolved over thousands of years. Obviously you do have spiritual teachers and the giant amongst them is Krishna and His Incarnations. You don't want to admit that of course because it supports the Baha'i world view. So you down play the importance of Krishna and start asking about all the oher teachers. Why aren't they manifestation too?

So I wonder if Hinduism is simply what you are in India unless you identify with something different such as Christianity and Islam. In that way it doesn't matter if you believe in one god, many gods, or no god, as long as its not the God of Abraham? So you don't need to call atheists, atheists. An atheist still wants to be part of Hinduism because you are somewhat of an outcast if you are not. So we call atheists Hindus and they are still part of the culture and traditions of the Indian people. You can have monotheism but as soon as that monotheist looks Abrahamic it isn't Hinduim anymore. I wonder if being Abrahamic has been like being a lower caste type of person.

So when you say Hinduism is more diverse than the Abrahamics that isn't a fair comparison either. What would be a better comparison is to simply look at all the beliefs of all the people in a country that has Christianity as its main religion. So New Zealand is very diverse like India is diverse. We have many different religions and beliefs in one country. So Hinduism is about national identity, not just religion.

It's wider than all 3 Abrahamic religions together. So are you suggesting that Islamic scholars, Biblical scholars and Judaic scholars all agree?

Of course they do not agree, but they actually have much more in common than not. For any of the Abrahamic Faiths there are clearly defined beliefs. If that's a problem and you don't want to be part of Christianity, then there are plenty of choices in your homeland these days. It would have been hard to change your religion even a generation ago but easier now. Same deal in India no doubt. Especially going from Hinduism to an Abrahamic Faith. That must be unthinkable still in parts of India.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Adrian. You were doing well without harsh conversational bias. What happened?

All religions have inconsistency and contradictions. The nature of religion is not for every puzzle peace to fit together. One Buddhist sect says other Buddhas are real others say they are reflections of the mind. Some Buddhist sects lean away from worship. Others are headstone worshipers if looking from an Abrahamic perspective. Some say Maitreya is the chosen. Others say he is not. It doesn't depreciate the message of Buddhism (using that as an example; can't speak for Hinduism) or Christianity or any other religion for that matter. The diversity of these differences conflicting worldviews (jesus/god jesus and god) and so forth are what makes religions beautiful to practice. With Hinduism, it's a plethora of ways to connect to one god. You don't just have prophets who have to be one way or another, but you have so many gods and goddesses that to live the experience of god rather than believe in god has more depth.

Also, why are contradictions and inconsistencies a bad thing?

Sometimes I wear red socks with my black slacks and a purple jacket with polka dot blouse and double lined tie. No one is going to send me to the fashion police (maybe another woman maybe). It's not the end of the world.

Don't compare Hinduism to Abrahamics then there wouldn't be an issue with one needing scripture to live and the other using it as a commentary. Value diversity not belittle them.

As you have said to me, when the Buddha taught his disciples questioned him. They discussed amongst themselves and analysed. So I too am analysing and discussing. You have said to me, why are Baha'is uncomfortable with disagreement? I have replied we want to see what works well and what doesn't. No one should have anything to fear from my questioning I would hope. I'm simply getting my head around Hinduism. I wish to neither offend or take offence. If my line of enquiry offends @Vinayaka I want to know so I can back off. That is the truth. For me, when two people argue about religion they are both wrong. If our discussions yield more heat than light, then best to step back.