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How in the world did Christians get Jesus from the Old Testament?

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
I suppose wearing tzitzit would be considered a "least commandment"
I'm not sure it's wise to divide the commandments into lesser and greater, although this is just my opinion. I think tzittzit are very important because they are there to remind the wearer of all the other mitzvot.
 
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DennisTate

Active Member
Because people can and will believe all manner of silly things. There were many Karaite Jews too. Rav Akiva once believed that a certain man could be the messiah who ended up most definitely not being. Even the wisest tzadikim can be wrong. It's still true that Christianity ultimately became a gentile movement.

You just compared Jesus to the Rebbe?? I'm sorry but I must disagree. The Rebbe would never utter such blasphemies I believe Jesus uttered, such as calling Jews 'of your father the devil'.

......

My dad died on January 1, 1990.

By Yom Kippur of that year I was going through a pretty serious philosophical and theological crisis. I summarized all of this to Sanhedrin Rabbi Yeshayahu Julius Hollander back in 2010:


tapatalk.com/groups/tate4centralnova/my-correspondence-with-rabbi-t383.html#.VsDYdsf8iOw
27 Nov 2010 20:39 #1

Rabbi ........, linking Jerusalem Third Temple with Grand Unified Theory of Modern World Problems.Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:00 PM
Shalom Rabbi .........:


I've been participating on The Sanhedrin message board and I was urged to contact you

directly. So far as I know I am probably the first minor Canadian politician who has

advocated that my nation assist The Temple Mount Faithful Community, People For A

Bill to Build The Bet HaMikdash and The Sanhedriin in your efforts to control the

Temple Mount and rebuild your Jerusalem Third Temple.



It is my firm belief that semi-reality and reality film series could play an important role

in working out the fulfillment of every word spoken in the law and in the prophets. My

dad, Robert Stewart Tate, passed away on January 1, 1990. His death came at the

same time that I was being confronted with the implications of the near death

experience accounts. I went through a theological crisis that I believe has relevance for

your SanHedrin.



"but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORD

to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness

to Aza'zel." (Leviticus 16:10)



I had no problem with the positive near death experiences but those negative ones

put me into a philosophical crisis unlike I had ever experienced before. I saw this

verse in Leviticus as a possible loophole and I asked that the guilt of Azazel would

be put on my head. I prayed and asked The G-d of Abraham if he had any use for

a volunteer "goat for Azazel?" If so, then I wanted to submit my application for the

job.



Several unusual things did occur since that time that I feel indicates that my offer

may well have been accepted. I would like to elaborate further on how I feel

a volunteer goat for Azazel could perhaps be of use in the working out of latter

day events in such a way that the death toll is kept to an absolute minimum.



Although I am not certain exactly what a volunteer goat for Azazel should do I

have seen a videotape in my head of myself signing currency units while my hand

is bleeding. The blood that drips onto a particular part of those currency units,

along with many examples of my signature serves to authenticate the

validity of these specific currency units for a future in which they could turn

out to be quite useful. I hereby offer to The Sanhedrin 22 billion Dennis Tate

shekels or dollars, similar to CalgaryDollars.ca or the Ithaca Hour.



Bill and Melinda Gates are planning on spending 24 billion US dollars in an effort

to make this world a better place. I wish to compete with them. This 22 billion

in a sense can be used as props in many reality films that tend to promote

peace in the Middle East and the reestablishment of the law of Moshe even in

foreign lands.



It is my belief that the films that you are guided to produce and direct will greatly

increase in value over the coming decades and centuries.



Shalom and greetings from Nova Scotia.



Dennis Tate
 

DennisTate

Active Member
I'm not sure it's wise to divide the commandments into least and greater, although this is just my opinion. I think tzittzit are very important because they are there to remind the wearer of all the other mitzvot.

Either I had forgotten that......
or perhaps I never really knew that about tzitzit at all...... interesting!
 

DennisTate

Active Member
Because people can and will believe all manner of silly things. There were many Karaite Jews too. Rav Akiva once believed that a certain man could be the messiah who ended up most definitely not being. Even the wisest tzadikim can be wrong. It's still true that Christianity ultimately became a gentile movement.

You just compared Jesus to the Rebbe?? I'm sorry but I must disagree. The Rebbe would never utter such blasphemies I believe Jesus uttered, such as calling Jews 'of your father the devil'.

That's nice. The messiah is supposed to do this though.

But which Moshiach.... there is supposed to be one who will fit with Isaiah 45:1 and.... verses 4,5.

Isa 45:1


Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

....
Isa 45:4

For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isa 45:5

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:"

If I remember correctly, Rabbi Pinchas Winston, in an article on 36. org.... entitled "Moshiach ben Yossef"..... stated that the tribe of Ephrayim has been lost...... and for halachic purposes have became Gentiles.

So... a Noahide political Cyrus type of person..... (or better yet seven or eight of them)..... is not out of the question at all........

Thus......
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
The short answer is that Jesus is a derived concept.
Well that's a fascinating statement! (I'm not Quaker, but spent all of high school at a Quaker boarding school, so have familiarity with the Society of Friends).

If, as you say, "Jesus is a derived concept," then the direct reading of that is that he was neither human nor God, and in fact did not exist at all except in the minds of those who conceived him.

I think even atheist historians (with a little honesty) might give him more reality than that.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
But which Moshiach.... there is supposed to be one who will fit with Isaiah 45:1 and.... verses 4,5.

Isa 45:1


Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

....
Isa 45:4

For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isa 45:5

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:"

If I remember correctly, Rabbi Pinchas Winston, in an article on 36. org.... entitled "Moshiach ben Yossef"..... stated that the tribe of Ephrayim has been lost...... and for halachic purposes have became Gentiles.

So... a Noahide political Cyrus type of person..... (or better yet seven or eight of them)..... is not out of the question at all........

Thus......
As moshiach just means 'anointed' I believe that Cyrus was merely HaShem's 'anointed' for that task. Also someone created a thread about this: Cyrus the Messiah
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Well that's a fascinating statement! (I'm not Quaker, but spent all of high school at a Quaker boarding school, so have familiarity with the Society of Friends).

If, as you say, "Jesus is a derived concept," then the direct reading of that is that he was neither human nor God, and in fact did not exist at all except in the minds of those who conceived him.

I think even atheist historians (with a little honesty) might give him more reality than that.
I visited a quaker meeting for about a year (though I am not currently visiting). I cannot tell you much about Quaker hermaneutic and have not read Fox's writings. This means I cannot represent the Quaker stance on things. I do know Paul's letters though. Jesus is resurrected in the gospels, however in Paul's letters the church is Christ's body per Paul's letter to the Colossians. How do you square that the Church is his body with his physical resurrection? In addition Paul plainly states that physically living people are 'Dead' in sin but 'Alive' in Christ. I'm not able in the paragraph to explain everything I said about annihilationist Christianity and Zen, but I do not need 'Atheist historians' to point out the derived nature of Jesus.
 

DennisTate

Active Member
I don't believe the new Sanhedrin hold any authority.

Any of the descendants of Adam can rise up and grab
hold of higher and higher and higher levels of consciousness.........

It can be a lot easier than we might tend to imagine......
 

DennisTate

Active Member
As moshiach just means 'anointed' I believe that Cyrus was merely HaShem's 'anointed' for that task. Also someone created a thread about this: Cyrus the Messiah

Yes.. I already replied in post #4.....
I suspect that the continual usage of Jacob / Yacob in one verse of Isaiah chapters 42 - 46.....
and Cyrus in the next verses is a hint that Cyrus.... could perhaps have been the reincarnation of
the Patriarch Jacob / Yacob.... at that time.........
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
It's a Jewish text that has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus.

So how did Christians extrapolate that somehow, the Old Testament had anything to do with Jesus?

Because the first Christians were Jews. And those Jews did inform their own new intention of the Old law just as their were others.

Just as the Essenes, the Pharisees and so many others had their own views never mind the fact that we can properly assume that these groups barely represented the majority of the populace which went with whatever new revelation directed them. Which has happened consistently throughout history among other religions even to this day.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
yes, but did Jesus exist. 2017 years ago, he was crucified
I was under the impression we date per his assumed birth year, not the year he died.

Jesus willingly sacrificed his life for us.
How willing depends on the author, though.

Jesus simply gave up his perfectly healthy life for us which No animal nor sinning human could do for us.
Wasn't that the point of having animals with no "blemishes"? They were perfectly healthy and given "for us".

In other words, we can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can do that for us.
But 100% of Christians die and the few who come back were either misdiagnosed as dead or got really good CPR.

He did not die FOR us.....
He died BECAUSE of us
Yeah.

In addition, perfume and money could also be sacrificed.
Yes. It seems like God required nothing really, but the priests sure didn't mind the near constant direct deposits.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
In my opinion:
such as calling Jews 'of your father the devil'.
If John is made up to discredit him, then he didn't say that.
It doesn't matter to us what someone wants to make up. We have better things to do with our time than chase nonsense.
What a discombobulated statement; the Tanakh is quite clear, and you follow it already as a religion, yet then when someone questions the interpretation is faulty, they're the ones who must be wrong, and there is no point investigating. :confused:
When our future messiah shows up, everyone on Earth will realize their mistake and become Noahide on their own.
Isaiah 24 for example says that the Lord will remove everyone other than the saints, not that everyone is going to convert.
We don't know HOW it will happen, but G-d told us that it would.
The Tanakh is very specific, and the Lord is looking for those who have a determined heart to understand...Everyone else isn't invited to the Messianic age.

There is no point being in a race, and then sitting at the starting line, saying well i know there is a finish line, and i've been told someone will win.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
But you do know HOW it didn't happen and that is wasn't through Jesus. Therefore from the Tanakh you must have something to say about the HOW surely?

knowing how something didn't happen is an odd sentence. We know what is supposed to happen. Since the prophecies haven't happened as of yet, it wasn't through jesus, Stalin, Colin Powell, or anyone else you care to mention.

We know the WHAT. Why must the Tanakh talk about the How?
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Are there bibles that use Jewish texts for the "OT", and then the NT? Just curious.

I don't see how it would be possible. From a Jewish perspective, there would be no reason to append another religion's bible to our own. From a non-Jewish perspective, they wouldn't know how to adhere to our strict quality control processes and their 'OT' would quickly degrade, as happened historically.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
What a discombobulated statement; the Tanakh is quite clear, and you follow it already as a religion, yet then when someone questions the interpretation is faulty, they're the ones who must be wrong, and there is no point investigating.

Wow, you finally said something right. I guess its true what they say about a broken clock being right twice a day.
 
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