How are these Great Beings explained?

[InvestigateTruth]

Who said Baha'u'llah is insane? Where did you get that idea from?
....

Seems like This is a possibility you consider:

Yes that is the Baha'i' belief. So how about discussing the opposite, LH? What if the entire thing is one big hoax? What if Baha'u'llah was just a crazy old man with a few creative ideas, and the entire Baha'i' faith is based on other people being duped? That is also a possible scenario.
.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Can't help noticing that this is page 666

Maybe something really bad is gonna happen...

That cat in your avatar looks scary.

Oh, we're onto page 667 now.

Everything's gonna be ok after all.

 

[CG Didymus]

The purpose of the Bab's Revelation was to prepare His followers for Him whom God shall make manifest. The Bab intended Baha'u'llah and that was recognised by most of the Babi's who eventually converted. Mirza Yahya, Baha'u'llah's half brother became jealous and felt threatened.

Bahá’u’lláh’s emergence as the leader of the community of the Báb’s followers increasingly aroused the intense jealousy of Mirza Yahya, His ambitious, younger half-brother. Mirza Yahya made several shameless efforts to slander Bahá’u’lláh’s character and sow seeds of suspicion and doubt among His companions. To remove Himself from being the cause of tension, Bahá’u’lláh retired to the mountains of Kurdistan, where He remained for two years, reflecting on His divine purpose. This period of His life was reminiscent of Moses' withdrawal to Mount Sinai, Christ’s days in the wilderness, and Muhammad's retreat in the Arabian hills.


Yet even in this remote region, Bahá’u’lláh’s fame spread. People heard that a man of extraordinary wisdom and eloquence was to be found there. When such stories reached Baghdad, the Bábís, guessing Bahá’u’lláh’s identity, dispatched a mission to implore Him to return.


Residing once more in Baghdad, Bahá’u’lláh reinvigorated the Báb’s followers; the stature of the community grew and His reputation spread ever further. He composed three of His most renowned works at this time—the Hidden Words, the Seven Valleys and the Book of Certitude (Kitáb-i-Íqán). While Bahá’u’lláh’s writings alluded to His station, it was not yet the time for a public announcement.


As Bahá’u’lláh’s fame spread, the envy and malice of some of the clergy was rekindled. Representations were made to the Shah of Iran to ask the Ottoman Sultan to remove Bahá’u’lláh further from the Iranian border. A second banishment was decreed.

At the end of April 1863, shortly before leaving the environs of Baghdad for Istanbul (known as Constantinople in the English language of the time), Bahá’u’lláh and His companions resided for twelve days in a garden which He named Ridván, meaning “Paradise”. There, on the banks of the River Tigris, Bahá’u’lláh declared Himself to be the One heralded by the Báb—God’s Messenger to the age of humanity’s collective maturity, foretold in all the world's scriptures.

The Life of Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

As for Mirza Yahya:

Subh-i-Azal - Wikipedia

If... "The purpose of the Bab's Revelation was to prepare His followers for Him whom God shall make manifest." Why is so much focus, including major prophecy, centered on 1844? What are some prophecies that point to 1863 when Baha'u'llah declared he was the manifestation? Thanks.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sure, its free speech. Anyone can say anything. That misunderstanding was corrected months ago.

I like what Jesus said. Take the log out of your own eye, before removing the speck from your brothers. We all have our faults. Best that we work on our own rather than exaggerating the faults of others.

If it is corrected, than who was the manifestation that started Hinduism? Presuming, whoever that was, that he didn't teach reincarnation, then when did the "wrong" tradition of reincarnation get started and why does it persist?.

When Krishna appeared, did he set everybody straight about reincarnation? Or, did he say things that supported that belief? Or, did Krishna teach the "truth" about it, that it's not true, but everything get distorted again and reincarnation made a come back?

 

[CG Didymus]

I can assure you that is not a Little at a time...ha ha It is a very comprehensive History of the Babi Faith and when I read it, I was riveted. Its over 669 pages.

Shoghi Effendi spent 8 months day and night translating this into English, it was His Priority, thus it holds a pivotal place in the Faith. It is very moving in many places and some of the Battles are monumental. It was a time of Transition from old laws to new laws.

It is some story and the great thing is much was recorded not long after the events, so the future will have much to read about and will be able to see more clearly the radical change our age is seeing.

Regards Tony

Is there Cliff Notes to it?

 

[Vinayaka]

Seems like This is a possibility you consider:

Nope, just throwing out ideas. I have very few actual thoughts other than what I expressed on the first couple of pages of this thread. Lots of people have lots of ideas. Besides, 'crazy' is much different than 'insane'. People use the term 'crazy' as bordering on 'fun' sometimes, or like 'unorthodox'. 'Insane' on the other hand, conjures up mental illness.

But go ahead, project whatever thoughts you want to onto me. You most likely figure I'm gay because I defend gay rights, too. Go ahead.

 

[CG Didymus]

Ah ha! Good point. I don't think that Bahais believe in Evil as a real 'condition', and I cannot remember whether they believe in the Devil, real Demons and such. Or real angels?

....'spiritually dead'....... all of this nonsense about spirits, spiritual, numerology, prophecy and so forth while denying exactly those words in other hearts and minds.

It's simple, I wouldn't want any of this, imagine a majority-Bahai World...... what exactly would happen to nasty ol' badgers who grumble away in their sets, eh? Have you seen that scene in the Bourne Legacy where the hero hears the sound of an aircraft and leaves the timber building? And then....... Whoooooshhhh, Booom! Blam!
No more ol'Badger. What a loss to the World!

There's so many of Paul's teachings that don't work into the Baha'i Faith. In one letter he talks about the dead in Christ rising first and then those that are still alive rising to meet them in the air. The Protestants I hung out with believe that's what will happen, their "Rapture".

Things would have been so simple if Paul had just said, "Hey, I'm going to tell you in a symbolic way." But no, he writes it as if that's what's going to happen. So Christians think they will be airlifted out of here before the great tribulation destroys most of the people left behind.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Nope, just throwing out ideas. I have very few actual thoughts other than what I expressed on the first couple of pages of this thread. Lots of people have lots of ideas. Besides, 'crazy' is much different than 'insane'. People use the term 'crazy' as bordering on 'fun' sometimes, or like 'unorthodox'. 'Insane' on the other hand, conjures up mental illness.

But go ahead, project whatever thoughts you want to onto me. You most likely figure I'm gay because I defend gay rights, too. Go ahead.

So you really think Baha'ullah had 'fun', for forty years of imprisonment and exile?

 

[CG Didymus]

Saul had a mystical experience of the Christ long after the alleged 40 days of sightings. He likens this experience to having seen the resurrected Jesus but this resulted from his adapted style of teaching, especially to the Greeks.



Literally, no. However this narrative has deeper spiritual significance.



Yes, plenty of metaphor to convey more profound spiritual teachings rather than literal historic truths.

I'm aware of what Christians believe and don't believe, thank you.

Hmmm, deluded maybe? They were told Jesus rose from the dead. It became the central belief of the Christians. But... it never happened. So everything that Christians believed about Jesus begins with a false belief that he rose from the dead? And again I'll ask, when did Christians ever have or teach the truth about Jesus? A major manifestation in the Baha'i progression of religious truth and the thing that gets people to believe in him... isn't true?

 

[Vinayaka]

So you really think Baha'ullah had 'fun', for forty years of imprisonment and exile?

Did I say that? Talk about strawmans.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So now Hindu beliefs aren't irrelevant? Can you make up your mind?

I have not changed my mind and offer it again.

Way back when we first discussed this, I offered to have a look at what reincarnation might have been saying, not what millions now think it does say.

It was a teaching that was obviously based in some truth, from a saying of a Great Being that man has put much more into.

I would be willing to explore the source, which would strip it back to the original teaching. Then when we find the source we then explore it with what Baha'u'llah has also offered.

I suggested we would find we are all working towards the same goal, but it will not be our Soul comming back for another life in any form on this earth.

Many teachings of many Faiths have the same challenge.

All Faiths that claim finality of Message have their teaching misunderstood.

Doctrine such as a Trinity, that we have found also reflects Krishna belief, need to be considered in another Frame of Reference.

Does that make it clearer?

Yes it is the Baha'i View.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is a really minor religion still, and not anywhere close to what you suggest. I met an Iranian the other day who had never even heard of the Baha'i'. Most people, at least in these parts, have never ever heard of it. The 3 largest religions outnumber you each by a factor of 200 to 1. I actually have a theory as to why such a disproportionate number of Baha'i's come to forums. On this forum, the number of Baha'i' is about the same as Hindus. About 10 each, so it's really disproportionate.

Want to hear my theory?

Not my Quote you replied to.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It could be considered there is a fundamental trend that is not being considered.

As a Baha'i we have accepted the explanations of Baha'u'llah that all the Great Beings are from God and that their purpose has always been to guide man to all that is good. We are followers of them one and all and will explore all thay have said. Not what man has decided thay have said.

In doing that, one has to tackle man formulated fundamental doctrines, all made to show a particular faith is the only path, the final Word.

It is not about judging each person, it is about fundamental midsets that have become the clouds that reject. All new Faiths in all recorded history have had to face the same rejections now given.

Thus I do not judge you, nor anyone one person, but I am obligated to state the point of differences is not of God, but of our own thoughts.

Regards Tony

"Not what man has decided thay have said..."? Who wrote the Bible? Maybe Mose wrote a little of it. The rest were men. Who wrote the NT? Men. Can we trust any of it? Were they biased in what they said about Jesus? Were they accurate in quoting him?

And this whole thing about a log in one person's eye is that he was judging someone that only had a splinter in his eye. He is told to first remove his log and then he'll be able to remove the splinter from the other person's eye. I get the feeling Baha'is believe they are in a position to know the real truth, and therefore, remove logs and splinters from everybody's eyes.

But every religion that thinks it has the truth does this. So it still remains, why should we believe the Baha'is over the beliefs of other religions? And, especially, why should we believe any of them over the religion that we have chosen to believe in?

 

[Vinayaka]

Does that make it clearer?

Yes it is the Baha'i View.

No it does not make it clearer.

We will never be able to trace the source of the doctrine (belief) of reincarnation. That would be the proverbial 'needle in a haystack' challenge multiplied by a million. As you might know, Sanatana Dharma (the actual name for Hinduism) was once an oral tradition, recited over and over by the pundits, sages, and scholars. The only indicators of age that we have is from the written history. So nobody knows where any of these beliefs originated from.

Today we stand, Baha'i's not believing in reincarnation, and Hindus believing in it. I'm good with that, and have no need to prove that I'm right and you're wrong, as the Baha'i's seem to feel they do. Perhaps you can find someone who will engage you in this 'debate' but it won't be me, lol. Has anyone's belief actually shifted in these 667 pages?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Mine doesn't. That's how I got into this thread. So nothing about that has actually been learned, lol. Seems a waste of time.

You have learnt that all the Great Beings talk of a Great day of Unity and Oneness.

It is for you to consider why you Faith does not and if that is a waste of time.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Not my Quote you replied to.

Yes, I realised that later. Sorry, but sometimes it's hard to know who's talking because you often all sound the same. Baha'i'speak.

 

[Vinayaka]

You have learnt that all the Great Beings talk of a Great day of Unity and Oneness.

One did, yes, I did learn that. His name was Baha'u'llah. But since I personally don't believe these great beings existed in the same way you do, how can I believe anything like that? You can't believe there is an atmosphere on Mars if you don't believe in Mars. I learned today also the George Bush voted for Hillary.

OTOH, I have doubts if you learned much about my faith either. You're still saying it was founded by one of your 'great beings' which is absolutely false.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is there Cliff Notes to it?

I have seen a condensed version.

This is a study guide - also think link may be there to condensed version.

Dawn-Breakers: A Study Guide and Outline

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"Not what man has decided thay have said..."? Who wrote the Bible? Maybe Mose wrote a little of it. The rest were men. Who wrote the NT? Men. Can we trust any of it? Were they biased in what they said about Jesus? Were they accurate in quoting him?

And this whole thing about a log in one person's eye is that he was judging someone that only had a splinter in his eye. He is told to first remove his log and then he'll be able to remove the splinter from the other person's eye. I get the feeling Baha'is believe they are in a position to know the real truth, and therefore, remove logs and splinters from everybody's eyes.

But every religion that thinks it has the truth does this. So it still remains, why should we believe the Baha'is over the beliefs of other religions? And, especially, why should we believe any of them over the religion that we have chosen to believe in?

Yes we can trust that the Bible contains the Word of God. To me it is clear, it is of no private interpretation. Any Authority of Interpretation has to be attributed to the Word and Instructions of Christ.

Thus the Catholic Church would have the strongest case.

I am happy if you do not listen to any one of us, we are not the source and we are just human.

We only offer that you choose for yourself to see what Baha'u'llah has said. We can only assist you to what has been recorded, if you ask, we can give our ideas on that intent by pointing to other writings and last resort is our own thoughts.

This is what we do with other Faiths Writings. Example;

Did Christ teach Trinity in the Bible? No there is no such teaching, so does it mean as per the meaning that people that formed the doctrine said it does, or does it mean as Muhammad suggested, or Baha'u'llah suggested?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Today we stand, Baha'i's not believing in reincarnation, and Hindus believing in it. I'm good with that, and have no need to prove that I'm right and you're wrong, as the Baha'i's seem to feel they do. Perhaps you can find someone who will engage you in this 'debate' but it won't be me, lol. Has anyone's belief actually shifted in these 667 pages?

I am also happy with that, that you beleive as you wish.

The thread is about the Great Beings, I beleive in them all and what they said.

So its sorted.

You to yours,
Me to mine,
As to what is divine,
It is found in time!

Regards Tony