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Is Islam peaceful?

Sakeenah

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your comments but I would not compare Robert Spencer to the likes of Keith Vaz the washing machine salesman - Keith Vaz rent boy scandal continues as cops assess if offences were committed

I don’t believe in shooting the messenger just because I don’t like the message.

I said that I found those videos to be both interesting and informative.

For instance, is he not correct about Mogadishu?

Following the outbreak of the civil war in the early 1990s, Islamism appeared to be largely confined to the radical Al-Itihaad al-Islamiya group. In 1992, Colonel Abdullahi Yusuf Ahmed marshalled forces to successfully expel an Islamist extremist group linked to the outfit, which had laid siege to Bosaso, a prominent port city and the commercial capital of the northeastern part of the country.[24] The turn of the 21st century saw an increasing prevalence of puritanical Sunnism, including in the form of Muwahhidism and Salafism.

Islam in Somalia - Wikipedia

He is definitely correct about Saudi Arabia and its influence.

Islam is divisive.

I'm not comparing them, I simply said I agree with his statement regarding this issue. The Anti-fascism campaigners Hope Not Hate are the ones that campaigned for Robert Spencer to not be allowed into the UK. I actually do not think he is right about Mogadishu, but to be fair I'll read the links you posted and respond tomorrow when I have more time.
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
The Jihadists do, how else are they going to get their 72 virgins?

There's a faulty premise in the current strategy on the war on terrorism. That faulty premise is that suicide terrorism and al- Qaida suicide terrorism in particular is mainly driven by an evil ideology Islamic fundamentalism independent of other circumstances.

However, the facts are that since 1980, suicide terrorist attacks from around the world over half have been secular. What over 95% of suicide attacks around the world [are about] is not religion, but a specific strategic purpose - to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland or prize greatly and this is, in fact, a centrepiece of al-Qaida's strategic logic, which is to compel the United States and western countries to abandon military commitments on the Arabian peninsula.


What really motivates suicide bombers?


This would seem to imply that terrorism is a political tool, not a religious tool. IOW Muslims are not carrying out terrorist attacks because of a promise of 72 virgins.

Not to mention their family gets honored and paid for their death. In a difficult life, if your death can provide a benefit to your family, IDK maybe they feel this is a noble act.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
There's a faulty premise in the current strategy on the war on terrorism. That faulty premise is that suicide terrorism and al- Qaida suicide terrorism in particular is mainly driven by an evil ideology Islamic fundamentalism independent of other circumstances.

However, the facts are that since 1980, suicide terrorist attacks from around the world over half have been secular. What over 95% of suicide attacks around the world [are about] is not religion, but a specific strategic purpose - to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland or prize greatly and this is, in fact, a centrepiece of al-Qaida's strategic logic, which is to compel the United States and western countries to abandon military commitments on the Arabian peninsula.

What really motivates suicide bombers?


This would seem to imply that terrorism is a political tool, not a religious tool. IOW Muslims are not carrying out terrorist attacks because of a promise of 72 virgins.

Not to mention their family gets honored and paid for their death. In a difficult life, if your death can provide a benefit to your family, IDK maybe they feel this is a noble act.

You seem to be overlooking the fact that Islam is a political ideology dressed up as a religion.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I wasn't following this thread, and I see I've missed quite a few pages(14 pages) . Would you mind explaining which point you wanted him to address?

Thanks for reminding me of this; I had forgotten. Training for my job leaves me tired when I get home late in the evening these days. I'll leave this post as a promissory note for a response to your query and I'll try to get back to you at the weekend.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
I'm not comparing them, I simply said I agree with his statement regarding this issue. The Anti-fascism campaigners Hope Not Hate are the ones that campaigned for Robert Spencer to not be allowed into the UK. I actually do not think he is right about Mogadishu, but to be fair I'll read the links you posted and respond tomorrow when I have more time.

If he is not an expert, he certainly knows how to talk a lot of sense.

 

Sakeenah

Well-Known Member
Thanks for reminding me of this; I had forgotten. Training for my job leaves me tired when I get home late in the evening these days. I'll leave this post as a promissory note for a response to your query and I'll try to get back to you at the weekend.

You're welcome. That's fine, I understand : ) life is hectic sometimes.
 

Sakeenah

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your comments but I would not compare Robert Spencer to the likes of Keith Vaz the washing machine salesman - Keith Vaz rent boy scandal continues as cops assess if offences were committed

I don’t believe in shooting the messenger just because I don’t like the message.

I said that I found those videos to be both interesting and informative.

For instance, is he not correct about Mogadishu?

Following the outbreak of the civil war in the early 1990s, Islamism appeared to be largely confined to the radical Al-Itihaad al-Islamiya group. In 1992, Colonel Abdullahi Yusuf Ahmed marshalled forces to successfully expel an Islamist extremist group linked to the outfit, which had laid siege to Bosaso, a prominent port city and the commercial capital of the northeastern part of the country.[24] The turn of the 21st century saw an increasing prevalence of puritanical Sunnism, including in the form of Muwahhidism and Salafism.

Islam in Somalia - Wikipedia

He is definitely correct about Saudi Arabia and its influence.

Islam is divisive.

He's not correct about Somalia.
The conflict, civil unrest and fragility that had a catastrophic effect on Somalia from 1992-2000s was mostly because of rivalry between warlords from different clans/ sub-clans. They were battling for territory, power or honour. The other reason was outside interference. The group al itihad al islamiya had very little followers in the 90s and even in early 2000s. Abdullahi Yusuf became the dominant force in Puntland(1992), while there was conflict and power struggles in other regions. And this is what was referred to in your quote.
Abdulahi Yusuf gained a reputation as a ruthless operator, a warlord who jailed and sometimes killed opponents. An associate of him said "You're either with the colonel or you are an enemy."

He lost power there for a year before making a comeback,and in 2004 Yusuf emerged as president, with UN backing, of what was called the Transitional Federal Government. He was not chose by the Somali population because he was known as a corrupt warlord in the past.
He appealed from help from other African countries and the international community.
He failed to gain authority and failed to act as a unifying figure. There was a rise in violence and much infighting within his own administration.

The Islamist movement claimed and promised to get rid of corruption,tribalism. They promised to unify Somalia.They took control of much of south and central Somalia. Abdulahi Yusuf reacted by calling in Ethiopian military intervention, which was effective in the beginning . But the memories of previous Somali-Ethiopian wars increased his unpopularity.
In Somalia, he was viewed as someone who brought Somalia's enemy into Somali territory to fight his own people. Instead of sorting out the political problems in a peaceful manner.

The Ethiopian troops did not achieve peace, since the Islamists went on to stage an insurgency with the help of Eritrea. Some of the insurgents(al shabab) later aligned themselves with Alqaeda.

The international community became disillusioned with Yusuf and his habit of going for military solutions instead of negotiation. They finally came to see(a bit late) that he was too much of a warlord and not enough of a politician.

So the rise of extremists groups like al-shabab or even piracy isn't because Islam isn't peaceful. It's due to the absence of an effective central government,lack of unity and corruption.
 

Silverscale derg

Active Member
Sure...If killing others is peaceful than there is. It's like saying Christianity is peaceful as the camera pans to the witch hunts, and the convert or die thing they did with "heathens" which Islam is doing
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I wasn't following this thread, and I see I've missed quite a few pages(14 pages) . Would you mind explaining which point you wanted him to address?

You're welcome. That's fine, I understand : ) life is hectic sometimes.

Okay, basically, in this thread Muslim-UK has been continually accusing non-Muslims of dishonesty by quoting Quranic verses out of the context of the verses which surround them. The standard of what he considers context is one he set in post #132 when he said

Pretty much self explanatory if you read 3-4 verses before and after the quoted verses.

"Pretty much self explanatory if you read 3-4 verses before and after the quoted verses."

He then said this in post #130 (not #131 which I incorrectly noted on an earlier page of this thread):

We have not sent down to you the Qur'an that you be distressed, but only as a reminder for those who fear [ Allah ] Qur'an 20:2-3

And is it not sufficient for them that We revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Indeed in that is a mercy and reminder for a people who believe. Qur'an 29:51

Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian. Qur'an 15:9

Have a look at what Muslim-UK has done here. He's lifted ayahs with a common theme straight out of their surahs without even giving those surrounding verses so much as a second mention. This is something he and other Muslim posters have condemned when they see non-Muslims doing it. Say if the common theme among quoted ayahs is 'the intolerance of Islam' and we quote a verse here and there - that's bad when we do it. But here Muslim-UK has done the exact same thing; he's lifted a verse or two out of random surahs - the only thing linking them is a common theme - thus breaching his own standards of context. He stubbornly refuses to admit doing so even though I've pointed it out to him several times now.


Seems very fair and reasonable to me. This just shows how non Muslims deliberately use selective verses without attempting to give any context.

Excuse you? I went to the effort of providing the verses on either side of the ones I was explicitly using in order to fulfil your criteria for 'quoting in context' in post #269 -see below. You have no right to criticise.


Okay. Here's the usual one: Surah 2:190-193 but I'll include the 3-4 verses on either side of that as spoilers.

185: The month of Ramadhan [is that] in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever sights [the new moon of] the month, let him fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.
186: And when My servants ask you, [O Muhammad], concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided.
187: It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your wives [for sexual relations]. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread [of night]. Then complete the fast until the sunset. And do not have relations with them as long as you are staying for worship in the mosques. These are the limits [set by] Allah, so do not approach them. Thus does Allah make clear His ordinances to the people that they may become righteous.
188: And do not consume one another's wealth unjustly or send it [in bribery] to the rulers in order that [they might aid] you [to] consume a portion of the wealth of the people in sin, while you know [it is unlawful].
189: They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the new moons. Say, "They are measurements of time for the people and for Hajj." And it is not righteousness to enter houses from the back, but righteousness is [in] one who fears Allah. And enter houses from their doors. And fear Allah that you may succeed.

190: Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.
191: And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
192: And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
193: Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.


194: [Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
195: And spend in the way of Allah and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining]. And do good; indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.
196: And complete the Hajj and 'umrah for Allah . But if you are prevented, then [offer] what can be obtained with ease of sacrificial animals. And do not shave your heads until the sacrificial animal has reached its place of slaughter. And whoever among you is ill or has an ailment of the head [making shaving necessary must offer] a ransom of fasting [three days] or charity or sacrifice. And when you are secure, then whoever performs 'umrah [during the Hajj months] followed by Hajj [offers] what can be obtained with ease of sacrificial animals. And whoever cannot find [or afford such an animal] - then a fast of three days during Hajj and of seven when you have returned [home]. Those are ten complete [days]. This is for those whose family is not in the area of al-Masjid al-Haram. And fear Allah and know that Allah is severe in penalty.
197: Hajj is [during] well-known months, so whoever has made Hajj obligatory upon himself therein [by entering the state of ihram], there is [to be for him] no sexual relations and no disobedience and no disputing during Hajj. And whatever good you do - Allah knows it. And take provisions, but indeed, the best provision is fear of Allah . And fear Me, O you of understanding.

So basically the wider context seems to be explanations of religious duties. Hajj; Ramadan; fighting non-Muslims. There's your context.

He also refuses to accept that Muslim apologists like the ones at Answering Christianity are doing the same thing he accuses non-Muslims of. In fact they're even more blatant because they quote verses out of context and highlight only part of the verse.

There, Sakeenah, I hope that's cleared things up for you.
 
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Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's a FACT, people who dislike Islam VERY often quote verses without giving ANY context. Like I said before, if I see such instances, I'll be amongst the first to pull them up on it. On the other hand, if anyone feels I myself have quoted something without context, then please do feel free to point it out and bring the 'missing' context. I'm happy to stand corrected and learn something new, insha'Allah
 
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