How are these Great Beings explained?

[InvestigateTruth]

You are (again) equating delusion with insanity. That is not only demeaning to people who hold mistaken beliefs, it is demeaning to people who suffer psychotic delusional episodes. They are not insane, they are deluded. By delusional I don't mean insane, I mean contrary to reality or reason. Any belief that is held despite superior contrary evidence is delusional - geocentrism was not a delusion before we had compelling evidence for heliocentrism - but it would be delusional to hold that view now.

Beliefs should be assayed by weighing the available evidence to determine whether the belief is likely to be true or not. Is it more likely to be true that an otherwise relatively insignificant 18th century Persian merchant really was "the essence of God and his Being" (as the Bab described himself) or is it more likely that he was having a grandiose delusion of the religious kind?

Being delusional is used in two different ways by people.
On one hand it means having a false belief, which is not as a result of mental illness. For instance if one believes that there are Unicorns, and if in reality there are no unicorns, this would be a false belief, but it is not due to mental illness. It is delusion coming from false belief.
Another example is, if indeed there is a God, but people are unable to recognize Him, it is due to their own false beliefs and delusions. In the same way that if there is no God, the people who believe in God would be delusional. I quote Baha'ullah:

"For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness.

Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great."


Now, mental illnesses cause delusions but not simply having false beliefs, but causing seeing things or hearing things which are not real. So, if someone believes he is actually seeing unicorns or hearing voices, which are not real, then this is a mental illness. It is the same as seeing people around or hearing voices which are not there. In such cases, it is related to brain dysfunction. It is a mental illness. Such people would also show dysfunctions with regards to their daily actions, and usually are incapable of doing simple tasks. They are often speaking irrationally, because their brain is dysfunctional.

Now think about Muhammad, Jesus or the Bab. Muhammad claimed He is communicating with an angel. In another words, if His belief is a delusion, then this falls into the second type of delusion, which is mental illness, as He would be actually seeing something that is not there. The Bab also, believed He was the Mahdi that Muhammad spoke of, and that God had created all things through the Bab. Such beliefs if wrong, they are not just a simple false belief. They would be due to a mental illness. In another words, if one attributes delusion to these Messengers of God, it can only be a delusion due to insanity, as these Messengers claimed that they actually hear the voice of Holy Spirit, or that they had seen a Maiden of Heaven as Baha'ullah claimed. It is identical with someone who sees people around, when there is no one around. It is a false image or voice that brain percepts, due to dysfunctionality.
So far, this is just to show that the possibility of Messengers of God, having delusions without mental illness is impossible.
Next I show, that the Messengers could not have mental illness with delusions. Based on science, people who have mental illness with delusions would also be dysfunctional in doing many other actions. For instance they would be unable to make right decisions to accomplish tasks. They would be unable to communicate with others properly, or provide rational arguments. However, it is evident from the Writings of Messengers and their history, they have been very capable. There is no indication of having mental illness.
So, then there remains only two other possibilities:
Either they were lying about their claims, or they were indeed who they claimed they are. But to say they had delusions, to me is not logical for the reasons i mentioned above.
It may also be said, that there are many healthy people who had mystical experiences. Then I would ask, how do you know they had delusions?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Making a mystic religion work for you, is easy when your soul sees it. But I feel the same amazement about Baha'i'. It has so many contradictions and fallacies. The ability to see through them is truly astonishing to me. But it demonstrates how rigid the natural mental processes can be.

Or how worldly our mind becomes, even if we think we have found the ways of the spirit. If our Soul so easily sees it, would not one have found their goal!

We are all Gods People.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

The Baha'is are in agreement with most Christians who would see Paul as being completely worthy as an apostle of Christ, although the two never met (unless you count the road to Damascus).

Do you believe that, that the risen Jesus Christ appeared before Saul in body?

Once we accept Paul and the books that make up the NT as in keeping with the spirit of Christ's Teachings, then the issue of the New Covenant and its implications become clear. I don't need to remove books from the NT to support my worldview. You do. We have a very different POV and I accept that.

Do you accept the Christian belief that Jesus was crucified dead and buried, and that on the third day he arose again from the dead, the Son of God?

Well, that is what Paul wrote, and what many Christians believe.

ROMANS {1:3} Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; {1:4} And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

 

[siti]

Oh btw, careful what you say, I might psychoanalyse you...just joking.

Not at all - go for it...

I'll give you a case history from my past...with some background (which I note you have already revisited from posts I made quite some time ago)...

I was, for the first four decades of my life a happy theist - first as an Anglican and later for about a decade as a JW. I should note that although I was (mostly) happy with my religion(s), as a science laboratory technician there were uncomfortable areas (such as evolution, miracles etc.) but my faith was reasonably strong and I comforted myself with the idea that all would be revealed in God's time. Despite taking up the beliefs of JWs I was never really fanatical and although I was trusted with responsibilities in the Congregation, I did occasionally flirt with the boundaries of official beliefs by making veiled hints - from the platform mind you - of doubt like "even if Armageddon is not coming soon"...but then hiding it from all but the most discerning in the Congregation by adding something along the lines of "we should still be determined to serve Jehovah". Anyway, to cut a long story short, my JW years were cut short when life intervened and I formed an intimate relationship with a non-Witness who was already married to someone else but long since separated. We eventually married and made our (difficult for me because of the policy of 'shunning' disfellowshipped members) way back to the Congregation but the doubts were now far too overpowering and faith had melted away entirely. In its place, I substituted reasoned investigation - first of the Bible and then widening the search parameters by looking at other religious and philosophical ideas.

Anyway, to get to the point I wanted to highlight, during this time I had a dream. I dreamed that I was reading the Bible and there were two books in it that I was convinced - in my dream - contained the keys to understanding everything else. Both of these Books had names that were very short and began with the letter Z. There are no such Books in the Bible as we know it - the Books with names beginning with Z have long names - Zechariah and Zephaniah - but these were not the ones - in my dream I was certain of that. As I examined these books (still in my dream) it became strikingly clear to me that I was being told to compile these books and that they would be used widely to unlock the secrets of the Bible's real message. I awoke with a profound sense of mission and went off immediately to find out what these books were all about.

I almost immediately (somehow - probably from a background of having read the Bible an awful lot) knew that one of these books was to be called "Zadok" - or more accurately "the Book of the Sons of Zadok" - Zadok having been the progenitor of a dynasty of faithful priests in ancient Israel and the book was to be (essentially) a compilation of the "acts" of the dynasty that came after him. There is, of course, already plenty of information about them on the internet - but I had no idea about that when I had my dream. However, I did set about the task and discovered quite a lot of fascinating details in a light I had not been aware of previously. But essentially, their ministrations boiled down to two things - our responsibility for our own well-being and our responsibility towards the greater reality (call it God or Nature or the environment or whatever you want - I reckoned these were symbolized in scripture by the temple - our body - and the courtyard - our environment). Seen in that light most of the Bible makes sense as long as you view it through the eyes of the ancient people by and for whom it was written.

I could not recall the actual name of the second book as seen in my dream except that it began with Z and I thought it was very short - maybe just 3 letters. I guessed it might be a name and could only think of the name "Zak" to fit the bill. But by then I was deliberately and consciously filling in the details - in the end I decided that this really had to be an update of the simple message of the Bible but for a 21st century audience - a science fiction story that would stand as a parable explaining what we know about human reality (which is really what the Bible was when it was written as far as I can make out). It would of course be far more complex than the "Zadok" one but the essential plot would involve a young chap named Zak (short for Izak) who was the only son of the most senior scientist in an advanced civilization that had recognized that conquering the tyranny of distance to colonize distant star systems was out of the question and that only a cosmological reboot - a deliberate detonation of a Big Bang - could be reasonably guaranteed to give life another chance to evolve. In the process - Zak's teenage life would necessarily be sacrificed along with everyone else's (the storyline should be familiar).

The point is, at that point, whilst I was entrusted with the oversight of a multi-million dollar teaching and research support function and occasionally as an international chemical safety consultant and advisor to several government departments, I was convinced that I also had a religious mission quite different (in content and intent) from any other widely-held religious views.

To psychoanalyse myself - was I mentally ill - no. Was I insane or incapable of functioning and decision-making at a high level. Certainly not. Had I really received a a message from a divine source. No - I just had a vivid dream. Was I deluded - certainly by this dictionary definition I was.

delusion
dɪˈluːʒ(ə)n/
noun
noun: delusion; plural noun: delusions
an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument
​

I think both @adrian009 and @InvestigateTruth are wrong about their definition of delusion. Delusions do not have to be associated with mental illness but they sometimes are. People who claim to have received direct messages from a specific deity are IMO almost certainly deluded (as I was for a while). Most people who have had a delusional episode (be it messages from beyond or the unfounded belief that their mate is being unfaithful) get over it and do not outwardly display a persistent psychotic delusional disorder. But in some cases the symptoms persist - often accompanied by delusions of persecution that become self-fulfilling prophecies as they balk religiously against the very "authorities" they perceive as having done great mischief to them and the cause of truth. And yes @adrian009 , I would include Jesus - and Muhammad - as possible case studies for psychotically-induced grandiose religious delusions accompanied by persecution delusions - I know its not politic for a professional psychoanalyst to say it - but they do both display clear symptoms (as even the crowds noted in Jesus' case - John 7:19-20; John 10:19-20) as far as we can tell from the accounts we have - and neither of them were following widely held religious beliefs when they 'got' their revelations - just as @InvestigateTruth noted about the Bab - the standout feature of his (and Jesus' and Muhammad's) message was that he was not recommending the established widely held religious beliefs.

That isn't going to happen in my case because in my case - even if I do write the books (which I might yet - if I ever find the time) - I will not be under the illusion that they were inspired by anything more than a human dream followed by years of reasoned investigation.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Not at all - go for it...

I'll give you a case history from my past...with some background (which I note you have already revisited from posts I made quite some time ago)...

I was, for the first four decades of my life a happy theist - first as an Anglican and later for about a decade as a JW. I should note that although I was (mostly) happy with my religion(s), as a science laboratory technician there were uncomfortable areas (such as evolution, miracles etc.) but my faith was reasonably strong and I comforted myself with the idea that all would be revealed in God's time. Despite taking up the beliefs of JWs I was never really fanatical and although I was trusted with responsibilities in the Congregation, I did occasionally flirt with the boundaries of official beliefs by making veiled hints - from the platform mind you - of doubt like "even if Armageddon is not coming soon"...but then hiding it from all but the most discerning in the Congregation by adding something along the lines of "we should still be determined to serve Jehovah". Anyway, to cut a long story short, my JW years were cut short when life intervened and I formed an intimate relationship with a non-Witness who was already married to someone else but long since separated. We eventually married and made our (difficult for me because of the policy of 'shunning' disfellowshipped members) way back to the Congregation but the doubts were now far too overpowering and faith had melted away entirely. In its place, I substituted reasoned investigation - first of the Bible and then widening the search parameters by looking at other religious and philosophical ideas.

Anyway, to get to the point I wanted to highlight, during this time I had a dream. I dreamed that I was reading the Bible and there were two books in it that I was convinced - in my dream - contained the keys to understanding everything else. Both of these Books had names that were very short and began with the letter Z. There are no such Books in the Bible as we know it - the Books with names beginning with Z have long names - Zechariah and Zephaniah - but these were not the ones - in my dream I was certain of that. As I examined these books (still in my dream) it became strikingly clear to me that I was being told to compile these books and that they would be used widely to unlock the secrets of the Bible's real message. I awoke with a profound sense of mission and went off immediately to find out what these books were all about.

I almost immediately (somehow - probably from a background of having read the Bible an awful lot) knew that one of these books was to be called "Zadok" - or more accurately "the Book of the Sons of Zadok" - Zadok having been the progenitor of a dynasty of faithful priests in ancient Israel and the book was to be (essentially) a compilation of the "acts" of the dynasty that came after him. There is, of course, already plenty of information about them on the internet - but I had no idea about that when I had my dream. However, I did set about the task and discovered quite a lot of fascinating details in a light I had not been aware of previously. But essentially, their ministrations boiled down to two things - our responsibility for our own well-being and our responsibility towards the greater reality (call it God or Nature or the environment or whatever you want - I reckoned these were symbolized in scripture by the temple - our body - and the courtyard - our environment). Seen in that light most of the Bible makes sense as long as you view it through the eyes of the ancient people by and for whom it was written.

I could not recall the actual name of the second book as seen in my dream except that it began with Z and I thought it was very short - maybe just 3 letters. I guessed it might be a name and could only think of the name "Zak" to fit the bill. But by then I was deliberately and consciously filling in the details - in the end I decided that this really had to be an update of the simple message of the Bible but for a 21st century audience - a science fiction story that would stand as a parable explaining what we know about human reality (which is really what the Bible was when it was written as far as I can make out). It would of course be far more complex than the "Zadok" one but the essential plot would involve a young chap named Zak (short for Izak) who was the only son of the most senior scientist in an advanced civilization that had recognized that conquering the tyranny of distance to colonize distant star systems was out of the question and that only a cosmological reboot - a deliberate detonation of a Big Bang - could be reasonably guaranteed to give life another chance to evolve. In the process - Zak's teenage life would necessarily be sacrificed along with everyone else's (the storyline should be familiar).

The point is, at that point, whilst I was entrusted with the oversight of a multi-million dollar teaching and research support function and occasionally as an international chemical safety consultant and advisor to several government departments, I was convinced that I also had a religious mission quite different (in content and intent) from any other widely-held religious views.

To psychoanalyse myself - was I mentally ill - no. Was I insane or incapable of functioning and decision-making at a high level. Certainly not. Had I really received a a message from a divine source. No - I just had a vivid dream. Was I deluded - certainly by this dictionary definition I was.

delusion
dɪˈluːʒ(ə)n/
noun
noun: delusion; plural noun: delusions
an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument
​

I think both @adrian009 and @InvestigateTruth are wrong about their definition of delusion. Delusions do not have to be associated with mental illness but they sometimes are. People who claim to have received direct messages from a specific deity are IMO almost certainly deluded (as I was for a while). Most people who have had a delusional episode (be it messages from beyond or the unfounded belief that their mate is being unfaithful) get over it and do not outwardly display a persistent psychotic delusional disorder. But in some cases the symptoms persist - often accompanied by delusions of persecution that become self-fulfilling prophecies as they balk religiously against the very "authorities" they perceive as having done great mischief to them and the cause of truth. And yes @adrian009 , I would include Jesus - and Muhammad - as possible case studies for psychotically-induced grandiose religious delusions accompanied by persecution delusions - I know its not politic for a professional psychoanalyst to say it - but they do both display clear symptoms (as even the crowds noted in Jesus' case - John 7:19-20; John 10:19-20) as far as we can tell from the accounts we have - and neither of them were following widely held religious beliefs when they 'got' their revelations - just as @InvestigateTruth noted about the Bab - the standout feature of his (and Jesus' and Muhammad's) message was that he was not recommending the established widely held religious beliefs.

That isn't going to happen in my case because in my case - even if I do write the books (which I might yet - if I ever find the time) - I will not be under the illusion that they were inspired by anything more than a human dream followed by years of reasoned investigation.

You don't seem to have read my last post or paid much attention to its details, because that is not exactly what I said.

 

[Vinayaka]

Or how worldly our mind becomes, even if we think we have found the ways of the spirit. If our Soul so easily sees it, would not one have found their goal!

Depends what religion you are for the goal thing. Goals vary greatly from religion to religion.

 

[Ingledsva]

Don't go away.........
... crafting............ sorcerer ...... Kharash and tekton ... nagar ... nacash ... nagash ... magic.

Could I just push this a little further.... ?
QUESTION: Magi? Could a person who, on the balance of possibilities, did accomplish extraordinary healing and other actions be called a magi? Would thgis not fit in with the above descriptions?

QUESTION: Balancing and weighing all, do you believe that this person, this name, was actually built up from a real character? I do.

Sorry will go back and look for it and answer tomorrow, hopefully.

Magi was used for magician - so yes. And we do know that extraordinary healers with their herbs and potions were often associated with magic.

Check out this interesting Wiki page on Magi. Magi - Wikipedia

Look at the Chinese portion. The symbol for a Shaman matches the Cross potent.

Shaman Cross potent

Kind of adds a whole new meaning to Jesus and his CROSS. Plus it is a symbol of the sun. And we know YHVH was originally a Sun God. And Jesus the Sorcerer, - son of a Sun God, - has the sun and rays around his head.

Here he is surrounded by the Zodiac.

Yes Jesus could be a real person (with additions.)

Some Jewish writings call him a Sorcerer.

Act 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer (Magos), a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus: (Son of Jesus)

Act 13:7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.

Act 13:8 But Elymas (Wizard) the sorcerer (Magos) (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

*

 

[siti]

You don't seem to have read my last post or paid much attention to its details, because that is not exactly what I said.

I did read your post quite carefully and this is what you said...

...the Messengers could not have mental illness with delusions. Based on science, people who have mental illness with delusions would also be dysfunctional in doing many other actions. For instance they would be unable to make right decisions to accomplish tasks. They would be unable to communicate with others properly, or provide rational arguments. However, it is evident from the Writings of Messengers and their history, they have been very capable. There is no indication of having mental illness.

That is complete rubbish - most of us will suffer some measure of mental illness at some point and most of us will have delusional episodes of varying seriousness - the vast majority will appear perfectly functional in other aspects of life - you seem to have a medieval understanding of mental illness - like its something that afflicts only a handful of people and they appear completely and very obviously mad. This is simply not the case - as I had hoped a practicing physician, and particularly one that had several years as a psychiatric registrar under his belt, would have confirmed - sadly (apparently) not.

Anyway, all that apart, the other significant part of your post was this...

"For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness.

Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great."

...which quote from Baha'u'llah simply confirms my suspicion at the beginning of this 'delusional' side-track - that the official Baha'i position is that everyone who doesn't agree with their belief system is deluded...here is how I put the idea to Adrian earlier

...according to Baha'i interpretations all the couple of billion Christians who subscribe to belief in the sin-atoning sacrifice of Jesus and his literal physical resurrection are not only deluded but insane?

Between the Baha'u'llah quote you gave and the interpretations of what "delusion" means that both you and @adrian009 have suggested, that is exactly what you are saying - isn't it?

 

[Vinayaka]

that the official Baha'i position is that everyone who doesn't agree with their belief system is deluded...here is how I put the idea to Adrian earlier

Ahhh, the list gets longer.

We've turned our back on God.
We're diseased, like lepers.
We're blind.
And now we're also deluded.

I wonder what will turn up next.

These kind of statements sure bring lots of unity to humanity.

 

[siti]

PS to my last few posts...

Please note that by addressing the thorny issue of psychotic illness and delusions I mean no offense to anyone of any religious persuasion. These thoughts that I have posted are part of my ongoing investigation of what this thing we call "religion" really is and how its various manifestations (if I can use that term in a general, non-Bahai-specific, sense) might come about. Mental illness and delusions are far more common than we often suppose as far as I can see - and I don't think we can genuinely analyse a religious belief system without taking such a common-place aspect of human life into account.

Psychosis, including deliberate drug-induced psychosis, has a very long historical (possibly even prehistorical) relationship with religious practice and it is unsurprising to me to discover that Baha'u'llah would have attributed religious beliefs that failed to coincide with his own to delusion. As I noted earlier the Jews of Jesus' day (according to the accounts) thought Jesus was "mad" or "demon-possessed" and the "false religious" entity "Babylon" in Revelation was accused of pharmakeia (aka sorcery - and probably drug-induced sorcery) (Revelation 18:23) which was, of course, also sandwiched between religious "idolatry" and "enmity" as one of the denounced "works of the flesh" in Galatians 5:20.

The point I am trying to get across here is that since it is obvious that religions (such as Christianity, Islam and Baha'i) purposefully invoke this idea of "delusion" to assay the contrary claims of other religions, they cannot object to their own religious ideas being assayed by the same standard. "Diverse weights...are...an abomination to the Lord" (Proverbs 20:10)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I did read your post quite carefully and this is what you said...

That is complete rubbish - most of us will suffer some measure of mental illness at some point and most of us will have delusional episodes of varying seriousness - the vast majority will appear perfectly functional in other aspects of life - you seem to have a medieval understanding of mental illness - like its something that afflicts only a handful of people and they appear completely and very obviously mad. This is simply not the case - as I had hoped a practicing physician, and particularly one that had several years as a psychiatric registrar under his belt, would have confirmed - sadly (apparently) not.

Anyway, all that apart, the other significant part of your post was this...

...which quote from Baha'u'llah simply confirms my suspicion at the beginning of this 'delusional' side-track - that the official Baha'i position is that everyone who doesn't agree with their belief system is deluded...here is how I put the idea to Adrian earlier
Between the Baha'u'llah quote you gave and the interpretations of what "delusion" means that both you and @adrian009 have suggested, that is exactly what you are saying - isn't it?

Seems like you conveniently did not reply to my whole post. Seems to me, you Just took part of my post, out of the context.
My post is considering two cases, and then through rational argument reject both possibility. You do not seem to have understood it.

 

[siti]

Seems like you conveniently did not reply to my whole post. Seems to me, you Just took part of my post, out of the context.
My post is considering two cases, and then through rational argument reject both possibility. You do not seem to have understood it.

OK - what did I not understand?

This is what I got from your post...

There are two possible uses of "delusion" - one is where someone believes something that turns out to be false (it could be argued that this is not a valid application of the word 'delusion' because the usual use of that word requires that there be compelling contrary evidence - but never mind that we'll leave it in for now).

The second is where the delusion is psychotically-induced (which could be because of mental illness which you mentioned, or because of drug use which you did not mention). Am I right so far?

You argued that the first application could work either way in religious applications - e.g. we could believe there is a God when in fact there isn't one OR we could fail to believe there is a God when in fact there is one. The problem here is where is the compelling evidence either way? But still, in this case even if there were compelling evidence one way or the other, could it not simply be that someone who was wrong about it was simply mistaken - not delusional - just misinterpreting the evidence. If that is what we mean by "delusion" then we are all delusional very frequently aren't we? And the messages of previous Manifestations become increasingly delusional as human knowledge advances - doesn't it? But again, lets just leave it there for now.

You then argued that the Bab (and Jesus, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah) could not have been psychotically delusional because they were able to function successfully in other aspects of life...such as what?...are you suggesting that because someone is able to tie their shoe laces, maintain a physically healthy diet and lifestyle, write letters and cross the road safely they cannot possibly be mistaken about the existence of God? And yet there a millions of atheists who are entirely capable of doing all this and more - and yet they believe the exact opposite of what you seem to think is proven beyond any reasonable doubt?

So again - what did I not understand?

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bab still has a small following of 'Babis' who only identify with him alone and his mission, or vocation.

There was fighting and death between Babis and Bahais when Bahauallah renamed himself and brought about the schism from the Babis religion.

For a more clear picture of all, I suspect that Babis could add to the truth of the Bab's life, mission and death.

I've never heard a Baha'i mention that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I've never heard a Baha'i mention that.

Because that is not the clear picture.

The Dawnbreakers tells the story. It is a long History, but it is the Birth of Two Faiths in very difficult times.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation​

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you believe that, that the risen Jesus Christ appeared before Saul in body?


Do you accept the Christian belief that Jesus was crucified dead and buried, and that on the third day he arose again from the dead, the Son of God?

Well, that is what Paul wrote, and what many Christians believe.

ROMANS {1:3} Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; {1:4} And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--​

I don't think the Baha'i believe sin and death entered the world through one man, Adam. But I'll bet you they have a way to explain it. Let me give it a try... One man really is alluding to all men. And as sin enters into a man's heart, he becomes spiritually dead. And that's what Paul was really trying to say. Unfortunately, the Christians misunderstood him... As they did believing there is a real devil and that Jesus somehow came back to life. Poor deluded souls... Opps, I mean poor mistaken and misinterpreting souls.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I've never heard a Baha'i mention that.

That's because half truths and distortions are being presented.

 

[CG Didymus]

Because that is not the clear picture.

The Dawnbreakers tells the story. It is a long History, but it is the Birth of Two Faiths in very difficult times.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation​

Regards Tony

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out...a little at a time.

 

[CG Didymus]

That's because half truths and distortions are being presented.

But that's what everyone says about how others talk about their religion. Like someone said one little thing about Hinduism and an epic thread sprung forth.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Ahhh, the list gets longer.

We've turned our back on God.
We're diseased, like lepers.
We're blind.
And now we're also deluded.

I wonder what will turn up next.

These kind of statements sure bring lots of unity to humanity.

That's an exaggeration and not true as far as I can see it. Are you trying to associate us with the Christian fundamentalists?

 

[CG Didymus]

That's because half truths and distortions are being presented.

I'm going off to read a little bit of Daniel now and then play some guitar. How's the next chapters in Revelation coming along?