Let’s talk about the Bible

[savagewind]

Just more religious propaganda short on facts, trying to sell us something. No, thanks.

Hi! Welcome back. I agree with you.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Neither do I, but we know with certainty that it was the belief of the early church, and it shows up in Paul's writings but as an interpretation.
The trinitarian concept is not of pagan origin, nor was it ever explained or justified by using pagan sources. It's an interpretation.

The Pagan Origins Of The Trinity Doctrine

 

[Oeste]

You can't claim the Bible was "well preserved". Your religion claims that from the time of the last Apostle until the 1950's it was full of errors and had to be rewritten by your leaders to make it right.

It wasn't well preserved, all people had until your leaders came on scene was a Trinity error filled Bible that kept them in darkness.

That is not true.
You are entitled not to like my religion but that doesn't give you the right to make things up.

From what I've seen it is true.

Don't Jehovah Witnesses read the same thing, ask the same questions, and give the same answers (always included at the bottom of the page), worldwide?

Kjw47, a noted, well known poster, Witness and apologist for the Watchtower has been teaching that the bible was full of errors until your Governing Board came along to correct it. He is male, which, according to your Organization's teachings means his opinion takes lead position on any discussion. Am I correct on this?

Here's the exchange:

...If the church is the religion of the Antichrist, why do you trust that the church chose the correct books to put in the New Testament Canon anyway?

It wasn't fixed until here in these last days( Daniel 12:4)--The new world translation fixed the errors.

Here is a comment that there were errors in the bible until God revealed "new light", or knowledge to the Governing Board in these "last days" (there are others):

Same reason every other religion claiming to be Christian teaches errors on those matters--They are already in the bible. Not one understood the reality until here in these last days( Dan 12:4) so every religion taught on those matters. It took correction in front of all creation to change errors to truths. Gods own angels didn't even know those truths( 1Pet 1:12)

They couldn't possibly know of error until God reveals it to them. Certain truths were hidden( from all) 1Pet 1:12- including Gods own angels.

And lastly we have this comment:

100% undeniable fact of the Israelite religion--taught, served and worshipped a single being God named-YHVH(Jehovah)
My teachers took 80 years of studying, bible(s) old writings, history, languages. before they translated to truth. The NWT corrected the many errors in trinity translation--facts prove it.

So the bible, according to your teachers, was NOT well preserved at all. It was full of errors until your teachers came along, received new light, and with this new light started correcting the errors found in the Christian canon until they gave us a "truthful" translation, and this is backed up by Daniel 12:4.

You can't have it both ways Vee. One Witness opening a thread claiming the bible contains errors not divulged until the "last days" and another saying it's all well preserved.

Your Organization claims they had to make THOUSANDS of corrections to the Name alone, all of which were spuriously made by the copiers without leaving any physical evidence or trace whatsoever.

And if you can argue thousands of undetectable changes were made to the Name alone, any fair minded person is going to wonder what other, heretofore totally undetectable "changes" were made to other parts of the Christian canon as well.

Far from arguing biblical accuracy, consistency, and/or continuity, your Organization makes the explicit argument no one should trust the Christian canon as truthful until and unless your Organization announces all "corrections" finalized, and all "revisions" closed.​

In short, Djhwoodwerks is not "making things up".

 

[Ingledsva]

“HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY, BUT MY WORDS WILL BY NO

MEANS PASS AWAY.” Matthew 24:35 NKJV ...​

But the most amazing fact about the bible is the way it survived. Most of our ancient literature has been lost due to the corrosion or destruction of the materials on which they were preserved. The Bible however, exists not only in its entirety, but in a well-preserved form, despite many efforts to destroy it....

And most of the other ancient literature that is gone, was purposely destroyed by the religions of Abraham.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

But when Jesus supposedly said that he and God were one, ...

I could say the King and I are ONE.

Meaning only that I agree with him.

It would not mean I am part of a duality, or trinity.

*

 

[Repox]

What makes you think that? I never found anything in the Bible that would make me think Paul had anything to do with the doctrine of Trinity.
From my researches, what I learned was that the introduction of the trinity into the catholic church dates back to the 4th century.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia says the following “The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.”

I am impressed, you not only know the Bible, you know church history.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

You can't have it both ways Vee. One Witness opening a thread claiming the bible contains errors not divulged until the "last days" and another saying it's all well preserved.

And witnesses proudly claim they are the only organization that is of one mind. Where everyone believes the same things!

 

[Twilight Hue]

“HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY, BUT MY WORDS WILL BY NO

MEANS PASS AWAY.” Matthew 24:35 NKJV ​

Independently of people’s individual beliefs, it is undeniable that the Bible has an incredible story.

It was written over a period of at least 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen; some were politicians. Others were generals or kings, shepherds or historians. They were from three different continents, and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects yet they wrote with agreement and harmony.

But the most amazing fact about the bible is the way it survived. Most of our ancient literature has been lost due to the corrosion or destruction of the materials on which they were preserved. The Bible however, exists not only in its entirety, but in a well-preserved form, despite many efforts to destroy it.


- About 600 B.C. Jehoiakim, attempted to destroy the Word of God, but miserably failed. (Jeremiah. 36:21-32).

- In 175 BC the king of Syria, Antiochus Epiphanes, ordered the Jews, on pain of death, to destroy their Scriptures and worship the Greek gods. But Judas Maccabaeus saved the books and led a revolt that won independence for the Jewish nation. (Today, Jews celebrate this event at Hanukkah.)

- In 64 A.D. Emperor Nero not only tried to wipe out the Bible, but anyone who professed Christ. He blamed them for the burning of Rome (which, he did himself) and ordered their mass execution.

- In 303 A.D. the Roman Emperor, Diocletian waged a horrible onslaught against the Bible. Every manuscript that could be found was destroyed. Thousands, including entire families who owned any of these were martyred.

- Jerome, in 405 A.D. completed a Latin translation of the Bible. In spite of being persecuted, Jerome’s translation lived through the Dark Ages. Anglo-Saxon translations of parts of Scripture, particularly the Gospel accounts appeared in England in the 7th & 8th centuries. In 1379 John Wycliffe along with chosen scholars translated the Latin Bible into English. By 1383, thousands of copies of the Wycliffe Bible were in the hands of the English. People who owned these Bibles were hunted down and killed.

- In 1524 William Tyndale resolved to put the Bible into the English of his time and distribute it throughout the nation. But, this being contrary to English law, Tyndale had to leave England for Europe. Printing began in Cologne. Tyndale was apprehended and imprisoned. In 1536 he was strangled and burned at the stake.

- In 1546 the Roman Catholic Council of Trent placed any printing of religious literature, including translations of the Bible, under the control of the church. Any who wanted to read the Bible were told to obtain written permission from bishops or inquisitors—not an appealing prospect for those who wanted to remain above suspicion of heresy. People who dared to possess or distribute Bibles in the common languages of their region had to contend with the ire of the Catholic Church. Many were arrested, burned at the stake, roasted on spits, sentenced to life in prison, or sent to the galleys. Confiscated Bibles were burned

- French humanist, Voltaire, (1700) boastfully proclaimed, "one hundred years from now the world will hear no more of the Bible." Yet, in the year of his boast, the British museum purchased a manuscript of the Greek New Testament for $500,000 while the first edition of Voltaire's new book sold for eight cents a copy! Furthermore, fifty years after the death of Voltaire, Bibles were being printed by the Geneva Bible Society in the very house where Voltaire lived and on his own printing press!

- Even after the Reformation commenced and Bible societies were formed the Catholic Church classified them with Socialism and Communism. On December 8, 1866, Pope Pius IX made this amazing statement: "Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies....pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means."

Despite so much opposition, the Bible not only survived, it thrived.

The Bible has been translated into over 2000 languages. No other book even comes close.

With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time. It sells approximately 100 million copies annually, and has been a major influence on literature and history.


Some references:
25 Fascinating Facts About the Dead Sea Scrolls @ Century One Bookstore
The Write Journey: How Has the Bible Survived?
The Evidence Bible
The Preservation of the Bible
Miracle Of Survival Of The Bible
Manuscripts of the Bible — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Bible - Wikipedia

All that and no one doesn't even know who wrote any of the books contained therein.

The only reason why the Bible is well-known is because of Constantine. That's quite a head start so it's not surprising to see why it's well-known given its background.

Plus the Bible does not corner the market on exclusivity. Quite frankly it's history isn't something I would brag about. Much of it's pretty dark giving its penchant for causing people to resort to violence and subjugation.

 

[savagewind]

Kjw47, a noted, well known poster, Witness and apologist for the Watchtower has been teaching that the bible was full of errors until your Governing Board came along to correct it. He is male, which, according to your Organization's teachings means his opinion takes lead position on any discussion. Am I correct on this?

This is precious! I believe you are correct, but she won't be able to admit it in public, imo.

 

[savagewind]

@Vee If a person has to believe that God made all the men who wrote, copied. translated and copied the Bible do it all right does he not also have to believe that God can but won't make everyone else live right?

I understand that some people do not want to live life right but what about all the people who do? Why won't Jehovah cause them to think, do, and say right like God has made the Bible keepers right?

 

[savagewind]

Is there no one who will admit that it is a big problem?
There are even people on the forum who have said that they searched for God.
If God had really caused the writing through all those people and with no changes in meaning (holy and confirmed words), why does God not confirm God's existence with many people?
Are you going to say that they were not honest and faithful, but that every single soul who caused the Bible was? Is that possible? You will say that with God all things are possible. OK.
Back to the question then. Why does God NOT help the people who do not write the Bible?

God makes the people who write Bible scriptures do it right.
God does not make other people do anything right.

There are two kinds of people.

I am asking YOU why. I need someone to explain to me the two kinds of people.
Also, why does God help one kind but not the other kind?

Please.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Incidentally

600+175 B.C...

There were no books.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

“HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY, BUT MY WORDS WILL BY NO

MEANS PASS AWAY.” Matthew 24:35 NKJV ​

Independently of people’s individual beliefs, it is undeniable that the Bible has an incredible story.

It was written over a period of at least 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen; some were politicians. Others were generals or kings, shepherds or historians. They were from three different continents, and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects yet they wrote with agreement and harmony.

But the most amazing fact about the bible is the way it survived. Most of our ancient literature has been lost due to the corrosion or destruction of the materials on which they were preserved. The Bible however, exists not only in its entirety, but in a well-preserved form, despite many efforts to destroy it.[/quote


- About 600 B.C. Jehoiakim, attempted to destroy the Word of God, but miserably failed. (Jeremiah. 36:21-32).

- In 175 BC the king of Syria, Antiochus Epiphanes, ordered the Jews, on pain of death, to destroy their Scriptures and worship the Greek gods. But Judas Maccabaeus saved the books and led a revolt that won independence for the Jewish nation. (Today, Jews celebrate this event at Hanukkah.)

- In 64 A.D. Emperor Nero not only tried to wipe out the Bible, but anyone who professed Christ. He blamed them for the burning of Rome (which, he did himself) and ordered their mass execution.

- In 303 A.D. the Roman Emperor, Diocletian waged a horrible onslaught against the Bible. Every manuscript that could be found was destroyed. Thousands, including entire families who owned any of these were martyred.

- Jerome, in 405 A.D. completed a Latin translation of the Bible. In spite of being persecuted, Jerome’s translation lived through the Dark Ages. Anglo-Saxon translations of parts of Scripture, particularly the Gospel accounts appeared in England in the 7th & 8th centuries. In 1379 John Wycliffe along with chosen scholars translated the Latin Bible into English. By 1383, thousands of copies of the Wycliffe Bible were in the hands of the English. People who owned these Bibles were hunted down and killed.

- In 1524 William Tyndale resolved to put the Bible into the English of his time and distribute it throughout the nation. But, this being contrary to English law, Tyndale had to leave England for Europe. Printing began in Cologne. Tyndale was apprehended and imprisoned. In 1536 he was strangled and burned at the stake.

- In 1546 the Roman Catholic Council of Trent placed any printing of religious literature, including translations of the Bible, under the control of the church. Any who wanted to read the Bible were told to obtain written permission from bishops or inquisitors—not an appealing prospect for those who wanted to remain above suspicion of heresy. People who dared to possess or distribute Bibles in the common languages of their region had to contend with the ire of the Catholic Church. Many were arrested, burned at the stake, roasted on spits, sentenced to life in prison, or sent to the galleys. Confiscated Bibles were burned

- French humanist, Voltaire, (1700) boastfully proclaimed, "one hundred years from now the world will hear no more of the Bible." Yet, in the year of his boast, the British museum purchased a manuscript of the Greek New Testament for $500,000 while the first edition of Voltaire's new book sold for eight cents a copy! Furthermore, fifty years after the death of Voltaire, Bibles were being printed by the Geneva Bible Society in the very house where Voltaire lived and on his own printing press!

- Even after the Reformation commenced and Bible societies were formed the Catholic Church classified them with Socialism and Communism. On December 8, 1866, Pope Pius IX made this amazing statement: "Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies....pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means."

Despite so much opposition, the Bible not only survived, it thrived.

The Bible has been translated into over 2000 languages. No other book even comes close.

With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time. It sells approximately 100 million copies annually, and has been a major influence on literature and history.


Some references:
25 Fascinating Facts About the Dead Sea Scrolls @ Century One Bookstore
The Write Journey: How Has the Bible Survived?
The Evidence Bible
The Preservation of the Bible
Miracle Of Survival Of The Bible
Manuscripts of the Bible — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Bible - Wikipedia

You didn't mention the three biggest factors I see in the Bible's "success":

- Christianity achieved a huge number of adherents, often by forced conversion with threats of violence or actual violence.

- Monasteries had support from states and kings, which allowed for the scribes needed to transcribe worn-out Bibles for preservation and to prepare new Bibles for distribution.

- Other religions that competed with Christianity were horrifically oppressed in many places.

Do you think that any other factors are needed to explain the "success" of the Bible?

 

[pearl]

There were no books.

We seem to forget that faith was through oral tradition, word of mouth, long before anything written. The 'word' in the 'Word of the Lord', is human! And this human word bares the mark of culture and time.

 

[metis]

The Pagan Origins Of The Trinity Doctrine

Thanks, but let me recommend in return the book "How Jesus Became God" by Bart Ehrman, who's a theologian at the University of North Carolina who walks the reader through point by point why and how the Trinity was formulated in the 1st century church, with Paul"a writings very much reflecting this.

Ehrman, like myself, is a former Christian who now is more agnostic but feels there's "Something" (see my faith statement below because his approach is much the same as mine). Neither of us have any irons in this fire as we're not tied to any denomination, and both of us heavily emphasize the need to use objective history and theology as best we can and not reflect what a particular denomination might teach.

The irony is that the trinitarian concept was less controversial in the early church than it became in the following centuries. It was assumed and believed in the early church, and you can especially see it in Paul's writings, that God and Jesus are so closely linked together that goes well beyond even the relationship between God and any of the prophets, including Moses. The latter is never talked about in the scriptures like Jesus is in regards to their association with God. Nowhere does Moses make any kind of claim that he and God are basically one.

But what is also true is that the view of most in the early church was not at all well-defined, which is what largely led to the 2nd through 4th century controversies on this matter, also fueled by some "heretical" churches that claimed that Jesus was just a prophet. And just a reminder that there is nothing found in the Tanakh that states or implies that a belief in the person alone of the prophet "saves" any one. IOW, nowhere do we see anything like John 3:16 applied to any prophet, even Moses.

But thanks for the link anyway.

 

[metis]

I could say the King and I are ONE.

Meaning only that I agree with him.

It would not mean I am part of a duality, or trinity.

So were the prophets "one" like what you say, but none of the prophets were ever elevated like we see Jesus being as such as found in John3:16, for just one example. With the prophets, it's what they taught that came from God that was paramount, but with John3:16 and many other verses it's the belief alone in this one prophet, Jesus, that can "save".

Since I'm not a Christian (see my faith statement at the bottom of this post), I don't believe this, but what I'm doing is reflecting what is really quite visible in the Christian scriptures, especially as compared to the Tanakh.

 

[Vee]

Not true? Then why did your leaders find it necessary to rewrite their own Bible?

Think of the New World Translation as a simplified upgrade: a translation based on the original text, embodying the latest scholarly findings from newly discovered Bible manuscripts, and using language easily understood by today’s readers.

The content is accurate and faithful to the oldest manuscripts ever found.
For example, consider Matthew 5:3: “Blessed are the poor in spirit.” (King James Version) It was rendered: “Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need.”
The apostle Paul’s admonition rendered “be careful for nothing” (King James Version) was translated: “Do not be anxious over anything.” (Philippians 4:6) And the apostle John’s reference to “the concupiscence of the flesh” (Douay Version) reads, “the desire of the flesh.” (1 John 2:16).
The message is the same but the way its written is much easier to understand when using expressions and words people are familiar with today.

Another feature of the New World Translation is the use of God’s personal name, Jehovah, in both the Hebrew and the Greek portions of the Scriptures. The Hebrew name for God appears nearly 7,000 times in the Old Testament alone but it was wrongly replaced by titles like Lord, which only generated confusion. Many people don't even know God has a personal name.

 

[savagewind]

The content is accurate and faithful to the oldest manuscripts ever found.

Absolutely not so!
It seems as though the NWT was produced to further the interests of the Watchtower Organization and not the truth.

For example, consider Matthew 5:3: “Blessed are the poor in spirit.” (King James Version) It was rendered: “Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need.”

The word which was written is "poor" which of course does not mean conscious. It means that if someone is poor they are needy. Needy people sometimes beg.

Strong's Greek: 4434. πτωχός (ptóchos) -- (of one who crouches and cowers, hence) beggarly, poor

beggar, poor.

From ptosso (to crouch); akin to ptoeo and the alternate of pipto); a beggar (as cringing), i.e. Pauper (strictly denoting absolute or public mendicancy, although also used in a qualified or relative sense; whereas penes properly means only straitened circumstances in private), literally (often as noun) or figuratively (distressed) -- beggar(-ly), poor.

If you might be able to think?

A poor person need not beg and a rich person can beg.

Matthew 5:3 is about begging for God's spirit. The Jehovah's Witnesses are taught not to beg. They are taught to wait on Jehovah, do God's will according to the governing body and only then will they receive what God has for them when the right time comes. They are working and not begging.

Rightly: Blessed the beggars the spirit

 

[kjw47]

From what I've seen it is true.

Don't Jehovah Witnesses read the same thing, ask the same questions, and give the same answers (always included at the bottom of the page), worldwide?

Kjw47, a noted, well known poster, Witness and apologist for the Watchtower has been teaching that the bible was full of errors until your Governing Board came along to correct it. He is male, which, according to your Organization's teachings means his opinion takes lead position on any discussion. Am I correct on this?

Here's the exchange:

​

Here is a comment that there were errors in the bible until God revealed "new light", or knowledge to the Governing Board in these "last days" (there are others):

​

And lastly we have this comment:

​

So the bible, according to your teachers, was NOT well preserved at all. It was full of errors until your teachers came along, received new light, and with this new light started correcting the errors found in the Christian canon until they gave us a "truthful" translation, and this is backed up by Daniel 12:4.

You can't have it both ways Vee. One Witness opening a thread claiming the bible contains errors not divulged until the "last days" and another saying it's all well preserved.

Your Organization claims they had to make THOUSANDS of corrections to the Name alone, all of which were spuriously made by the copiers without leaving any physical evidence or trace whatsoever.

And if you can argue thousands of undetectable changes were made to the Name alone, any fair minded person is going to wonder what other, heretofore totally undetectable "changes" were made to other parts of the Christian canon as well.

Far from arguing biblical accuracy, consistency, and/or continuity, your Organization makes the explicit argument no one should trust the Christian canon as truthful until and unless your Organization announces all "corrections" finalized, and all "revisions" closed.​

In short, Djhwoodwerks is not "making things up".

Every trinity translation was done from Catholicism translating--that means all who live by the errors in their teachings place their eternal lives on those teachings, because God requires one to know truth( John 4:22-24) he will accept no less. And there will be no excuse because God promised that only here in these last days that truth would become abundant.( Dan 12:4) It has by certain teachers that have Jesus, and by making corrections.

 

[savagewind]

Every trinity translation was done from Catholicism translating--that means all who live by the errors in their teachings place their eternal lives on those teachings, because God requires one to know truth( John 4:22-24) he will accept no less. And there will be no excuse because God promised that only here in these last days that truth would become abundant.( Dan 12:4) It has by certain teachers that have Jesus, and by making corrections.

I am waiting for them to change some things. I shall not hold my breath.