The Contradiction of an All-powerful, All-knowing God

[djhwoodwerks]

I find starting at Luke 16:14 Jesus is addressing those hate-filled Pharisees.
Those Pharisees (before Jesus) held a high standing with men, but Jesus was teaching 'change was coming'.
Now, the tables, so to speak, would turn on them. A dramatic change in a reversal of positions to take place.
Those religious leaders adhered to the Law of Moses, so they said.
Jesus enrages those Pharisees at Luke 16:18. The old Mosaic Law allowed for divorce on various grounds, but now Jesus says everyone who divorces a wife and marries another commits adultery .......
Jesus was underscoring to them the magnitude of the change he is bringing about.
Those money-loving, self-righteous Pharisees are like that un-named rich man at Luke 16:19-21.
The Pharisees viewed the poor, or common people, with contempt.
The beggar named Lazarus even wants spiritual droppings or crumbs from the Pharisees' table.
But those Pharisees think of the common folk as spiritually diseased ( covered with ulcers, etc. )
Those listening to Jesus know Abraham was still asleep in the grave -Psalms 115:17; 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
No one who died before Jesus' died 'ascended' according to John 3:13. That includes King David of Acts 2:34.
So, father Abraham did Not yet see the fulfillment of God's resurrection promise as per Hebrews 11:13,39.
Since the Law, John (the baptizer) came in connection to Jesus - Matthew 11:13 - so, the preaching of John and Jesus brought about a change of position. The spiritually deprived common people would now have plenty.
Whereas those of that 'rich man class of religious leaders' (aka Pharisees) refuse to accept Jesus.
They are angry and tormented by what John and Jesus had to say. What a relief it would be if John and Jesus would let up preaching. That preaching was a fiery judgement message to them.
Jesus would Not compromise or 'water down' his message to satisfy to bring relief to the Pharisees.
Those Pharisees were having their ' fill ' of good things at that moment in their lifetime, and since that would change it was a great gap or chasm permanently fixed between them and the common Lazarus people- Luke 16:25-26.

That's a whole lot of words to really say nothing. I might could agree with you about some of what you say, but the fact that Jesus said,

Luke 16:22-23 (ESV Strong's) The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Please explain why Jesus was "illustrating" what would happen while they were alive by saying they died. The rich man died AND was buried...

Jesus' illustration was of what happens when we die, not what happens while still alive.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Thank you for your reply. An illustration or a parable story does Not have to a fairy tale, but creating a word picture in the mind to serve as a memory aid. Jesus gave us many illustrative stories for us to remember.
Besides Luke 16, I find Jesus gave the illustration or parable of the two debtors at Luke 7:41, the sower at Luke 8, weed/tares among wheat at Matthew 13, the mustard grain at Luke 13:18-19, The leaven at Matthew 13, the hidden treasure at Matthew 13, the businessman seeking pearls at Matthew 13, the dragnet at Matthew 13, the unmerciful person at Matthew 18:23-35, the neighborly good Samaritan was also a story and Not a real happening at Luke 10:25-37, the pesty friend at Luke 11, the unreasonable rich man at Luke 12, the unproductive fig tree at Luke 13:6-9, the grand meal at Luke 14:16-24; the lost sheep of Luke 15:3-7; the lost coin at Luke 15:8-10; the prodigal son at Luke 15:11-32; the unrighteous person at Luke 16:1-8 plus many more teaching illustrations.

All the references you give are "parable stories" of real things. The mustard seed= faith, weeds and tares= sinners and righteous, the leaven= false teachings.
And you're right, a parable was for creating word pictures in the mind, so, if hades is just the common grave, where everyone goes, why was Jesus painting that picture as awful and tormenting? Why was He painting the picture of the rich man suffering in HADES, with no way to escape?

 

[Scott C.]

Since I find death ( Not death plus+anything ) is the price tag that sin pays according to Romans 6:23; Romans 6:7 then to me there is No un-happiness forever state. No post-mortem state of un-happiness.
As Romans 6:7 mentions the dead are freed or acquitted from sin. So, as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges do Not stick, Jesus can pardon or acquit a person so the sin charges No longer stick. In other words, a fresh start on Resurrection Day (meaning Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth when there will be a resurrection, or as Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be' a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. This includes those who never heard of Jesus - John 3:13.
On the other hand, the 'wicked' are simply 'destroyed forever' as per Psalms 92:7 (annihilated).
The words from Jesus' mouth will execute the wicked as per Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.

Adam became animated, or came to life, have life's spirit, when God breathed the breath of life into life-less Adam.
So, at Adam's death ALL of Adam returned to the dust. Adam went from non-life, to life, and back to non-life.
That spirit of life is passed down to us from father Adam. As a foreclosed house does Not move or go anywhere, but it simply goes back, or is returned to the owner, so our spirit goes back to God in the sense that all future life prospects are in God's safe hands until Resurrection Day. There will be No un-happiness because there will be No more tears shed as Revelation 7:17 and Revelation 21:4-5 says about God.

That is interesting, but it's not the way I understand the Bible and God's plan.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That's a whole lot of words to really say nothing. I might could agree with you about some of what you say, but the fact that Jesus said,
Luke 16:22-23 (ESV Strong's) The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Please explain why Jesus was "illustrating" what would happen while they were alive by saying they died. The rich man died AND was buried...
Jesus' illustration was of what happens when we die, not what happens while still alive.

In Luke, Jesus gave the illustration story about when the poor and rich man died. ( Died to former positions )
The REAL person ( Not illustration story ) of John 11:11-14 is about a REAL dead person.
Jesus taught that REAL dead person was in a sleep-like state according to John 11:11-14.
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures and Jesus' teachings are in harmony with them.
The ' dead know nothing ' according to Ecclesiastes 9:5. The dead sleep as per Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4.
Even the REAL prophet person Daniel knew of death's sleep according to Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13.
None of those REAL faithful people of Hebrews chapter 11 ever saw the promise - Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39.
Jesus was alive on Earth when he gave the parable story or illustration of Luke 16, and according to John 3:13 No one has ascended. At Acts of the Apostles 2:34 that includes even the REAL person of King David.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That is interesting, but it's not the way I understand the Bible and God's plan.

I find we people often make plans but plans can change. Plan to go on a picnic but it rains so we change the plan.
Whereas, Nothing can change God's purpose such as found at Genesis 1:28 and Psalms 104:5.
I am wondering how you understand Revelation 22:2 that there will be healing for earth's nations.
( Even at Isaiah 33:24 Isaiah wrote that the time is coming when No one will say," I am sick......" ).
God's purpose according to Jesus is that humble meek people will inherit the Earth - Psalms 37:9-11,29.
Since God promised father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed at Genesis 12:3, and since God promised at Genesis 22:18 that ALL nations of the Earth will be blessed that future blessing has Not yet taken place.
So, God purposes to bless ALL families and purposes to bless ALL nations with curing or healing for earth's nations.
That blessing benefit has Not yet taken place but will happen during Jesus' 1,000-year millennium-long governing day when there will be No more tears (of sadness) shed on Earth as per Revelation 7:17; Revelation 21:4-5.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

In Luke, Jesus gave the illustration story about when the poor and rich man died. ( Died to former positions )

You can disqualify the meaning all you want, it doesn't change the truth!

Luke 16:22-23 (ESV Strong's) The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment,

Jesus said the rich man, "died and was buried", AND "in hades". that is in no way a teaching of "former position".

Luke 16:22 (ESV Strong's) The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.

The poor man died, AND was carried away by angels. Again, no way referring about position.

 

[Scott C.]

I find we people often make plans but plans can change. Plan to go on a picnic but it rains so we change the plan.
Whereas, Nothing can change God's purpose such as found at Genesis 1:28 and Psalms 104:5.
I am wondering how you understand Revelation 22:2 that there will be healing for earth's nations.
( Even at Isaiah 33:24 Isaiah wrote that the time is coming when No one will say," I am sick......" ).
God's purpose according to Jesus is that humble meek people will inherit the Earth - Psalms 37:9-11,29.
Since God promised father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed at Genesis 12:3, and since God promised at Genesis 22:18 that ALL nations of the Earth will be blessed that future blessing has Not yet taken place.
So, God purposes to bless ALL families and purposes to bless ALL nations with curing or healing for earth's nations.
That blessing benefit has Not yet taken place but will happen during Jesus' 1,000-year millennium-long governing day when there will be No more tears (of sadness) shed on Earth as per Revelation 7:17; Revelation 21:4-5.

It would take a lot of writing and scripture quoting to give you a very well thought out and doctrinal response to your questions. But, I want to be more brief, but informative too. I believe that the righteous will inherit the earth, literally. I believe Christ will reign on earth for 1,000 years in which time there will be no sorrow, no wars, the lamb will lie down with the lion, and God will wipe away all tears. We call it the Millenium. The last resurrection from the dead will be after the Millenium. Hell will finally "give up it's dead", meaning those wicked spirits that were in hell during the Millenium, will be resurrected. Their spirits and bodies will be reunited. They will then be heirs of a degree of heavenly glory, but not a fullness. Their "forever" will not be tortured and miserable, but it will also not be as good as it could have been, had they chosen to follow God whenever they could and should have.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You can disqualify the meaning all you want, it doesn't change the truth!
Luke 16:22-23 (ESV Strong's) The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment,
Jesus said the rich man, "died and was buried", AND "in hades". that is in no way a teaching of "former position".
Luke 16:22 (ESV Strong's) The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.
The poor man died, AND was carried away by angels. Again, no way referring about position.

Please explain the way Jesus described his friend's death at John 11:11-14 for us.

I find like King David who did Not yet have a resurrection according to Acts of the Apostles 2:34 that also Abraham did Not yet have a resurrection because all who died before Jesus died did Not ascend according to John 3:13.
That also includes John the Baptizer according to Matthew 11:11B.
Since John is Not in heaven then where is John.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

...................... Hell will finally "give up it's dead", meaning those wicked spirits that were in hell during the Millenium, will be resurrected. Their spirits and bodies will be reunited. They will then be heirs of a degree of heavenly glory, but not a fullness. Their "forever" will not be tortured and miserable, but it will also not be as good as it could have been, had they chosen to follow God whenever they could and should have.

I never read in Scripture that wicked spirits are in biblical hell.
I read at Acts of the Apostles 2:27 that dead Jesus was in biblical hell until his God resurrected Jesus out of hell.
There is No mention of even Satan being in hell but in the abyss of Revelation 20.
When the thousand years have ended Satan then will be released from that prison(Not hell)as per Revelation 20:7.
The wicked spirits (who are the fallen angels) never had a physical body in which to be reunited. - Jude1:6
And as Psalms 92:7 says the wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' as in being annihilated .

 

[james dixon]

Since John is Not in heaven then where is John.

Clearly in your thoughts

-

 

[james dixon]

KJ21
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return unto the ground, for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Clearly in your thoughts
-

No, Not in my thoughts but as found in the written pages of Scripture as found at Matthew 11:11 and about King David at Acts of the Apostles 2:34 that he did Not ascend. So, John and David are still asleep in the grave until Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth when 'there will be' (future tense) a resurrection according to Acts of the Apostles 24:15.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

KJ21
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return unto the ground, for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

Good point I find ^ above^ because Adam simply ' returned ' to where he started according to Genesis 3:19.
A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before. So, Adam returned back to non-life from where he started.

 

[james dixon]

.,.,.,.,.,.,Are John & David buried in the cave in the field of Machpelah, near Mamre, which Abraham had bought as a burial place from Ephron the Hittite, along with the field.the same place

Genesis 47:30 [ Israel speaks ] but when I rest with my fathers, carry me out of Egypt and bury me where they are buried." I will do as you say," he said.

Genesis 50:5 My father made me swear an oath and said, "I am about to die; bury me in the tomb I dug for myself in the land of Canaan. "Now let me go up and bury my father; then I will return.'"

Genesis 50:7 So Joseph went up to bury his father. All Pharaoh's officials accompanied him--the dignitaries of his court and all the dignitaries of Egypt--

Genesis 50:10 When they reached the threshing floor of Atad, near the Jordan, they lamented loudly and bitterly; and there Joseph observed a seven-day period of mourning for his father.

Genesis 50:11 When the Canaanites who lived there saw the mourning at the threshing floor of Atad, they said, "The Egyptians are holding a solemn ceremony of mourning." That is why that place near the Jordan is called Abel Mizraim.

Genesis 50:13 They carried him to the land of Canaan and buried him in the cave in the field of Machpelah, near Mamre, which Abraham had bought as a burial place from Ephron the Hittite, along with the field.

Genesis 23:17 So Ephron's field in Machpelah near Mamre--both the field and the cave in it, and all the trees within the borders of the field--was deeded

Genesis 25:9 His sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah near Mamre, in the field of Ephron son of Zohar the Hittite[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Oeste]

So, Adam returned back to non-life from where he started.

Read Genesis 2:7:

7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Your statement would be true only if God never breathed life into man.

After death the our fleshly body returns to dust, however we are more than just a body of flesh. The breath of life remains so there is no way we can return to "non-life" because there is nothing we have that can kill the human spirit:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Please explain the way Jesus described his friend's death at John 11:11-14 for us.

Absolutely!

I'll start by asking you a question, why did Jesus, when He heard that Lazarus was sick say, "this illness does not LEAD to death"?

IMO, John 11:1-16 Jesus is teaching his followers that death does not mean we cease to exist. When we "sleep" at night, we don't cease to exist, we simply enter a different state of consciousness, we don't think, we don't know anything, we don't praise God. Everything witness use to reason that we cease to exist at death, is the same when we "sleep" at night, and we are still alive. The body sleeps, but the spirit is still alive.

If Jesus believed death meant we cease to exist, He wouldn't have compared it to something we do every day, He would have told His followers, 'Lazarus has died', not, "Lazarus has fallen asleep".

In Mark 5:21-43 Jairus came to Jesus to heal his daughter, someone came and told him his daughter had died, so they all knew the girl was dead, but Jesus told them, “Why are you making a commotion and weeping? The child is not dead but sleeping.” Jesus said, "the child IS NOT dead, but sleeping." There, Jesus made a clear distinction between the two.

Getting back to John 11:4, Jesus said, "this illness does not LEAD to death", didn't Lazarus die? Did Jesus lie? If Jesus would have said, 'this illness does not END in death', it would have put a whole different meaning to it. Then we would know that Lazarus DIED and Jesus brought Him back. Jesus said his illness didn't LEAD to death. Then He said Lazarus had fallen asleep, if He would have said that Lazarus was dead, everyone would have thought the way most do now, he was dead and gone. Jesus was teaching that is not what happens when we die.

1Corinthians 5:1-10 talks about us being "clothed in this earthly tent", and "the tent that is our earthly home". We're not just a "life force", our bodies are our earthly homes we live in. When a child of God's dies, he is "away from the body and present with the Lord".

 

[Guy Threepwood]

No god can be all-knowing and all-powerful.

This not a new argument, but I’d like to hear any fresh takes on it.

If a god is all knowing, he must know in advance everything every person is going to do and can therefore judge them even before giving them life.

If he judges they should go to hell, there is no reason to give them life. In fact, that would simply allow them to do whatever bad things they are going to do, so the decision to give them life would itself be a sin and a contribution to evil.

If he judges they should go to heaven, there is again no possible reason for them to have a life, which would be a comparative punishment.

Therefore, if any god is all-knowing and all-powerful, none of us would be alive.

The question has not changed and neither has the answer: free will


One of the best ways to understand the answer though is to put ourselves (as close as we can) in God's shoes. Which for us is considering our own children

Why let your child make any mistakes, face any challenges, conquer any problems, when you can easily do it for them? In fact if you could plant a chip in their head that forced them to always do the right thing, would you do it?

Tempting perhaps! But you would probably eventually think this through as God did:

There is no such thing as being truly 'good' if there is literally no alternative, it has to be a choice or it has no meaning. So it is love that stops us, and God, from interfering, but giving the gift of free will instead

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I find Jesus is very clear at John 11:13-14 B that Lazarus is dead. (dead Not just sleeping, but likening death to sleep)

John 11:3 from the Greek Interlinear reads .....the sickness is Not toward death but over the glory of the God in order that might be glorified....
So, in other words, as John 9:3 also states the works of God may be manifest.....

The resurrection Jesus' performed was Not with death in view of No resurrection for Lazarus, but to show the glory of God having resurrection power over Lazarus who was dead for four (4) days.

Jesus did Not call Lazarus back from heaven, but from the grave.
Before Jesus' died ALL the Bible resurrections were back to healthy physical life on Earth.
The only ones called to heavenly life: are like the ones of Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 20:6

 

[Oeste]

I find Jesus is very clear at John 11:13-14 B that Lazarus is dead. (dead Not just sleeping, but likening death to sleep)

Agreed, which puzzles me how you can then claim Lazarus or anyone else “ceases to exist” when they die. As @djhwoodwerks has pointed out, we don't "cease to exist" when we die.

John 11:3 from the Greek Interlinear reads .....the sickness is Not toward death but over the glory of the God in order that might be glorified....
So, in other words, as John 9:3 also states the works of God may be manifest.....

Again, how can you resurrect something that no longer exists? Wouldn’t that be a recreation of the dead, rather than a resurrection?

Also, note Jesus resurrects the actual, real Lazarus, and not a clone or copy of Lazarus.

Neither is there a newly created clone or copy of Lazarus' consciousness possessing the body of Lazarus and passing themselves off, intentionally or unintentionally, as the actual Lazarus who was "recently annihilated". The bible is pretty clear on this.

The resurrection Jesus' performed was Not with death in view of No resurrection for Lazarus, but to show the glory of God having resurrection power over Lazarus who was dead for four (4) days.

Jesus did Not call Lazarus back from heaven, but from the grave.

Agreed. Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven, so Lazarus came back from hell rather than heaven.

Rather than the “one-burning-size-fits-all” your Organization alleges Christians believe, the bible gives strong indication there are different levels of hell. In other words, since there are varying levels of punishment, so are their different levels of hell.
(Revelation 20:12, Matthew 10:15, Luke 12:47-48, Matthew 8:12, Luke 13:28, 1 Corinthians 3:14-15).

Before Jesus' died ALL the Bible resurrections were back to healthy physical life on Earth.

Again, that's because Jesus had not yet ascended.

When Jesus comes again the first (general) resurrection will take place, in which the dead in Christ will receive their new bodies…(For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality 1 Corinthians 15:53). These are not people who "ceased to exist", nor are they clones or duplicates "recreated" from God's memory. They are the original people whose bodies have died.

The bible is clear. It is always the original people who receive just punishment or reward, and NEVER a clone, duplicate, or replica. YOU will be rewarded or punished...you do not get to pass it off to someone else that acts, looks, feels, or thinks its you, and neither will I.

The only ones called to heavenly life: are like the ones of Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 20:6

Your Governing Board attempts to take certain biblical verses like Luke 12:32-34 and re-translate them into first class spiritual tickets to heaven for themselves, and a second class, stuck on earth, be happy you might (if you stick with us and do exactly as we say) spiritual ticket "reward" for their followers. The whole idea is in direct contradiction to Romans 2:11, Acts 10:34, Job 34:19, Proverbs 22:2, and Acts 15:9.

Also, to anyone who bothers to read the bible, our reward comes through our bond with Christ and not by "associating" or hobnobbing with the "right people". "Bad associations destroy useful habits" sure, but the author is talking about character, not reward, and there will be many of "fine character and reputation" who will find themselves standing before the judgement seat of Christ.

Besides, Revelation 20:12 puts the whole idea to rest, as the great and small are standing before the throne, which is not on earth but heaven.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Our thoughts cease to exist when we die according to the Bible at Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
We can exist in God's Book of Life. Because we are remembered by God, then Jesus will resurrect us - Revelation 1:18.
Yes, Jesus resurrected a real 4-day dead Lazarus. But Lazarus later died again because it was Not yet Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth. ( Never a clone )
I find at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 that the ' future tense ' is used that there ' is going to be ' a 'resurrection'.........
Since Earth is God's footstool (Isaiah 66:1; Acts 7:49) then on Earth we all stand before God while on Earth.
The living figurative humble ' sheep'-like people of Matthew 25:31-33,37 are alive on Earth.
They can continue to live alive on Earth starting with calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth begins when even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth as per Isaiah 25:8; 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.