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Did God Want Jesus to be crucified?

If you are Christian, do you believe God wanted Christ to be crucified?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 85.7%
  • No

    Votes: 2 14.3%

  • Total voters
    14

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
If you read gospels prior to the NT, you find Jesus making references to the "Kingdom of Heaven" as if he had complete understanding. Then, if you read the OT you find references to the Messiah, as a prediction of Jesus, the "Jewish savior." As for Satan, who else would he be but a rebellious angel? As for my stories about Satan's rebellion in heaven, I have posted them on this forum. I admit to no Bible references for them. I have had dream revelations about God and the universe which don't fit with traditional theology, but make a lot of sense as an explanation for why God created the universe, communicated with humans, and has remained absent from our world. There are other things most people don't know about God, etc. There are twelve angels in heaven, Satan is number thirteen, paradise happened during the dinosaur era, and God is not pleased with humans. He expected the earth to remain unmolested after the fall of paradise. It revolves around "free will." The main reason for God's displeasure with humans is because they don't obey His commandments. As for the universe, God didn't make it for humans, He made it as a prison for Satan. Humans are collateral damage.

As for confirmation of NT gospel errors, I suggest reading a formidable book, Jesus Before the Gospels by Bart C. Ehrman. There are other references which mention errors in the NT gospels. Apparently, it is a well kept secret about the Bible.

For happiness, you're better off accepting the Christian salvation story. Have a nice day.

Why would I accept the Christian story? I'm not Christian.

And if you are not finding the information in Tanakh, then you and others are making it up. Changing Jewish texts.

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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
...You've made Isaiah 53 about 'Hebrew people'; which was a later Jewish thought, which was strongly rejected to begin.

Bull, go to any Jewish site and read up on it.

You're using Isaiah 52:1-9 interlink with Isaiah 53, when it has a different timeline mentioned in the text, it is a time when 'no circumcised will come into the land' and 'where the people shall know the Lord is the one who speaks', which means it is in the Messianic age time, not before it.

We have had this discussion before - Poetic, and reference to past events.

Isa 52:2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

Isa 52:4 For thus saith the Lord GOD, My people went down aforetime (in the past) into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.

Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for YHVH hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Isa 52:12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for YHVH will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of YHVH revealed? (See Isa 52:9-13.)

Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of YHVH, and their righteousness is of me, saith YHVH.

Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.


It doesn't matter how you twist it - the suffering servant in these is ISRAEL.

Yeshua said that he was the Lord of David (Matthew 22:41-46), that Israel was his House (Matthew 10:25), that the temple was his house of prayer (Matthew 21:13), etc.

No he didn't! Someone writing that text long after his death, - misunderstood a text about King David and YHVH.

"In this passage the first word (LORD) in Hebrew is the four-letter (yud-hai-vav-hai) sacred name of G-d. However the second (Lord) is a completely different word spelled (aleph-dalet-nun-yud). ..."

This “Lord” (in blue) which is not entirely capitalized above is the Hebrew word “adoni,”(pronounced adonee), with a “chirik” vowel under the letter yud. It means “to my master” or “to my lord” with a lower case “L” like the “lord of the manor.”

"Psalm 110 was composed in the third person to be sung by the Levites, and thus reflects their point of view, for they would call their king “my master – adoni.” In other words, the Levites are saying that “God spoke to our master (King David). Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/psalm-110-a-jewish-perspective/

No one misunderstood Isaiah other than the Jews trying to say it was only a young woman, not a virgin; it can mean both, and fits with the prophetic nature to the statements provided.

Pure baloney - it say certain things will happen before the child knows the difference between good and evil. The two kings they are at war with die. OBVIOUSLY not some future Jesus. The child was born then to a young woman. No virgin birth.

The word Messiah/Anointed is found in two places, Isaiah 52:14 (Dead Sea Scrolls Version) and Daniel 9:26, both happened to Yeshua...

I've already provided the Jewish Hebrew information showing this means salvation. And I pointed out that the CHRISTIAN scholars agree with the Jewish scholars. It doesn't matter if you don't.

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wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
In my opinion:
Bull, go to any Jewish site and read up on it.
The Rabbis' Dilemma: A Look at Isaiah 53 - Jews for Jesus
We have had this discussion before
We had the discussion, showed how the logic was flawed, and then you go back to the same as before, ignoring any objections to your points. :rolleyes:
It doesn't matter how you twist it - the suffering servant in these is ISRAEL.
If you want to go back to Israel being the servant regardless of context; that is your choice, you can create what ever ideology you want to believe, and stick with it.
No he didn't! Someone writing that text long after his death
We have the same statement in all 3 Synoptic Gospels (Matthew 22:41-46, Mark 12:35-37, Luke 20:41-44), therefore there is reason to question if it was his speech.
was composed in the third person to be sung by the Levites
Not sure where the Psalms are written in third person, most seem to be David writing poetically to the Lord himself; he doesn't write for others to speak it, he writes from his heart....

Yet if you can show that clearly, would be interested in learning where that happens.
it say certain things will happen before the child knows the difference between good and evil. The two kings they are at war with die.
So we know at a minimum the child shall be a teen after the northern kingdom will be taken; Isaiah 7:8 says it is at least 65 years in the future before Ephraim is taken....

So we're dealing with a future prophetic statement, any time after Israel has been taken.
I've already provided the Jewish Hebrew information showing this means salvation.
The word anointed/messiah (H4899 מָשִׁיחַ mâshı̂yach) does not mean salvation...

When dealing with Messianic prophecy, we should look for the actual word Messiah, and see what is prophesied.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
In my opinion:

The Rabbis' Dilemma: A Look at Isaiah 53 - Jews for Jesus

We had the discussion, showed how the logic was flawed, and then you go back to the same as before, ignoring any objections to your points. :rolleyes:

If you want to go back to Israel being the servant regardless of context; that is your choice, you can create what ever ideology you want to believe, and stick with it.

We have the same statement in all 3 Synoptic Gospels (Matthew 22:41-46, Mark 12:35-37, Luke 20:41-44), therefore there is reason to question if it was his speech.

Not sure where the Psalms are written in third person, most seem to be David writing poetically to the Lord himself; he doesn't write for others to speak it, he writes from his heart....

Yet if you can show that clearly, would be interested in learning where that happens.

So we know at a minimum the child shall be a teen after the northern kingdom will be taken; Isaiah 7:8 says it is at least 65 years in the future before Ephraim is taken....

So we're dealing with a future prophetic statement, any time after Israel has been taken.

The word anointed/messiah (H4899 מָשִׁיחַ mâshı̂yach) does not mean salvation...

When dealing with Messianic prophecy, we should look for the actual word Messiah, and see what is prophesied.

In my opinion. :innocent:

Same -old! - same-old!

I stick to the actual Hebrew language and translations and you folks try to twist them.

It doesn't matter what "messianic" CONVERTED Jews think after listening to Christian twisting, - like virgin births, and "Lucifers" that aren't even in Isaiah, and autonomous evil Satan, etc. They drank the Kool-Aid.

The word we are discussing as SALVATION in that text, was translated as salvation, by BOTH Christian AND Jewish scholars. You are the one that is wrong.

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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
This question is for Christians. It was brought to my attention that some Christians don't believe God wanted Christ to be crucified.

I just don't know how a person could make the argument that God didn't want it.

Didn't Jesus make it clear that that was part of his Ministry to be a sacrificial lamb and suffer and die for sin to be atoned? When it was time for him to die, he said "now has the time come for the son of man to be glorified". He spoke about it like it was a good thing. In the end it glorified him.

If you don't believe God wanted Christ to be crucified, please give your reason and explanation. Thank you.
I figured God reasons that if he abuses his son from the "disease" he invented to make everyone's life miserable, through the serpent he put in the garden on a forbidden trees that he put there but nobody can have, then people will see how good he is and follow him.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
The word we are discussing as SALVATION in that text
In my opinion:

We're not discussing the word Salvation (H3444) to then discuss the concept of the word Messiah (H4899). :rolleyes:

To establish Messianic prophecy we should deal with the specific word 'Messiah' which we find in two places prophetically in the Dead Sea Scrolls on Isaiah 52:14, which then defines who the Servant is, which is why Isaiah 53 has always been seen as Messianic, and Daniel 9:26, which is also about the Messiah.

Both then contextually fit together, the Messiah is cut off from the land of the living, as happened.
They drank the Kool-Aid.
So basically you're saying everyone is insane other than you, and with your lack of capabilities at even listening properly or recognizing when you've been showed to be flawed in logical understanding, this repeatedly makes no sense sorry.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
In my opinion:

We're not discussing the word Salvation (H3444) to then discuss the concept of the word Messiah (H4899). :rolleyes:

To establish Messianic prophecy we should deal with the specific word 'Messiah' which we find in two places prophetically in the Dead Sea Scrolls on Isaiah 52:14, which then defines who the Servant is, which is why Isaiah 53 has always been seen as Messianic, and Daniel 9:26, which is also about the Messiah.

Both then contextually fit together, the Messiah is cut off from the land of the living, as happened.

So basically you're saying everyone is insane other than you, and with your lack of capabilities at even listening properly or recognizing when you've been showed to be flawed in logical understanding, this repeatedly makes no sense sorry.

In my opinion. :innocent:

You can go on-and-on-and on about this, - and it won't change a thing.

In the sentence we are discussing, - all of the experts, Jewish, Christian, and other, have all translated the word as salvation.

See # 63.

52(53) Verse by Verse with commentary - https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/isaiah-53-verse-verse/

Psa 98:1 A Psalm. O sing unto YHVH a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.

Psa 98:2 YHVH hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.

Psa 98:3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

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wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
You can go on-and-on-and on about this, - and it won't change a thing.
In my opinion:

So you don't listen, even when shown that wasn't what we were talking about...
In the sentence we are discussing
OK we will swap to the bits you want to talk about instead:

Psalms 98:3 He has remembered his loving kindness and his faithfulness toward the house of Israel. All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God (Yeshuat Eloheinu).

Isaiah 52:10 Yahweh has made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God (Yeshuat Eloheinu).

These lines of text only define that the word Yeshuah (H3444) is a symbolic reference to Yeshua in some places.

In both these it expresses that we shall physically see the Salvation from our God (Yeshuat Eloheinu), this happened in the person of Yeshua....

It isn't a reference only to a name, and metaphoric concept, yet the roots are Yeshua Elohim, thus implies Yeshua was a of a divine nature sent down here, as he stated.

As we go over the Yeshua (H3444) references within Isaiah especially, it implies that 'YHVH shall become Yeshua' in Isaiah 12:2, that 'Yeshua shall be a light unto the Gentiles' (Isaiah 49:6), in Isaiah 25:9, 'we shall physically see the Salvation from YHVH'.

People would translate it to Salvation, as that is what Yeshua's name means; most Hebrew names are also spiritual references, reading them only one way is shortsightedness.

To be clear, these are not name references in the Tanakh, they're metaphoric descriptors, that expand across the book to define that YHVH shall be seen physically manifest in the Servant/Messiah he sends to fulfill the plan.
As for dealing with the website posted much of it is made up, not matching context, over exaggerating, and adding loads of statements to make it fit, so not going to waste time detailing each.

In my opinion
. :innocent:
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
In my opinion:

So you don't listen, even when shown that wasn't what we were talking about...

OK we will swap to the bits you want to talk about instead:

Psalms 98:3 He has remembered his loving kindness and his faithfulness toward the house of Israel. All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God (Yeshuat Eloheinu).

Isaiah 52:10 Yahweh has made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God (Yeshuat Eloheinu).

These lines of text only define that the word Yeshuah (H3444) is a symbolic reference to Yeshua in some places.

In both these it expresses that we shall physically see the Salvation from our God (Yeshuat Eloheinu), this happened in the person of Yeshua....

It isn't a reference only to a name, and metaphoric concept, yet the roots are Yeshua Elohim, thus implies Yeshua was a of a divine nature sent down here, as he stated.

As we go over the Yeshua (H3444) references within Isaiah especially, it implies that 'YHVH shall become Yeshua' in Isaiah 12:2, that 'Yeshua shall be a light unto the Gentiles' (Isaiah 49:6), in Isaiah 25:9, 'we shall physically see the Salvation from YHVH'.

People would translate it to Salvation, as that is what Yeshua's name means; most Hebrew names are also spiritual references, reading them only one way is shortsightedness.

To be clear, these are not name references in the Tanakh, they're metaphoric descriptors, that expand across the book to define that YHVH shall be seen physically manifest in the Servant/Messiah he sends to fulfill the plan.

As for dealing with the website posted much of it is made up, not matching context, over exaggerating, and adding loads of statements to make it fit, so not going to waste time detailing each.

In my opinion
. :innocent:

Like I said - You can go on-and-on adding your Christianized views to JEWISH texts, - and you will still be wrong.

They are right concerning their texts, - and you are wrong.

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wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Like I said - You can go on-and-on adding your Christianized views to JEWISH texts
In my opinion:

The idea you think it is either of those understandings, shows you're not aware of what you're talking about...

The Jews according to the text have been blinded to understanding its meanings (Isaiah 29:9-14) with them currently cut off.

Whereas Christianity is established by the Pharisees John, Paul and Simon the stone with them going directly against Yeshua's teachings.
and you will still be wrong.
If you could even show this, I'm always open to learning; so far you post a load of text with bits in colour, don't listen when corrected, and continue as if you know everything.
They are right concerning their texts
Show with evidence, as so far you have not... Anyways guess it isn't worth replying anymore, as you're not willing to look at any alternative view.

Peace B with U :innocent:
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
In my opinion:

The idea you think it is either of those understandings, shows you're not aware of what you're talking about...

The Jews according to the text have been blinded to understanding its meanings (Isaiah 29:9-14) with them currently cut off.

Whereas Christianity is established by the Pharisees John, Paul and Simon the stone with them going directly against Yeshua's teachings.

If you could even show this, I'm always open to learning; so far you post a load of text with bits in colour, don't listen when corrected, and continue as if you know everything.

Show with evidence, as so far you have not... Anyways guess it isn't worth replying anymore, as you're not willing to look at any alternative view.

Peace B with U :innocent:

I have shown the scholarly view of BOTH Jewish and Christian scholars on that word, in that text.

You on the other hand have shown no actual evidence for your views. You are pushing your view of Christianized teachings onto Jewish texts.

You are wrong.

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