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A Moral question on the nature of "Forgiveness"

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Satan does not desire forgiveness. For if he did he would have humbly asked for it. But Satan is far from humble. No one who does not desire forgiveness in humility with repentance in his heart will receive it.

Isaiah 14
12How you have fallen from heaven,

morning star, son of the dawn!

You have been cast down to the earth,

you who once laid low the nations!

13You said in your heart,

“I will ascend to the heavens;

I will raise my throne

above the stars of God;

I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,

on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.b

14I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;

I will make myself like the Most High.”

15But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,

to the depths of the pit.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Matthew 6
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.


All manner of sin will be forgiven except for the sin against the Holy Spirit, which is unbelief in Christ.

You honestly don't think King David was forgiven? He committed murder and adultery, you know. God even said through Gad that He had put David's sin away.
I believe David was forgiven. But, he didn't actually commit murder. However, his sin was very severe and he got punished severely for it.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
I believe David was forgiven. But, he didn't actually commit murder. However, his sin was very severe and he got punished severely for it.

True. The blood of Bathsheba's husband was on his hands, no doubt about that. He ordered it specifically. The soldier carrying out the order was just obeying his king's order, he didn't know why and it didn't matter that he didn't know why. A soldier does what he is told.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
True. The blood of Bathsheba's husband was on his hands, no doubt about that. He ordered it specifically. The soldier carrying out the order was just obeying his king's order, he didn't know why and it didn't matter that he didn't know why. A soldier does what he is told.
David is counted among the righteous, because while he sinned, he also repented and did not repeat the same sin again. However, I would say that it was touch and go a few times. At the same time, it is a very good case for those of us who sin seriously at times since few of us cause the death of another while also taking that one's wife. This should give some of us hope. Though we shouldn't take it as an invitation to sin.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
David is counted among the righteous, because while he sinned, he also repented and did not repeat the same sin again. However, I would say that it was touch and go a few times. At the same time, it is a very good case for those of us who sin seriously at times since few of us cause the death of another while also taking that one's wife. This should give some of us hope. Though we shouldn't take it as an invitation to sin.

Very true, good post. My point in pointing this out to you is that a man can murder, rape or commit heinous sins and be forgiven for having committed those sins. The only sin which cannot be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which I believe is unbelief that Jesus is the Christ.

By saying you don't believe you are saying that you think the Holy Spirit was either not in Christ or you think the Spirit is a liar or a hoax. This is, of course, heinous sin, according to the Bible.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
only sin which cannot be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which I believe is unbelief that Jesus is the Christ.
So many say this. However, the question that then needs to be answered is what exactly constitutes this kind of sin.
I don't know if you saw the scriptures I just provided for the other discussion I had with a former Christian. If you like I will let you have this information, but not today, and not until Friday evening or afternoon.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Soldiers also have intent, and Moses was fighting to deliver his people from oppressors who were committing genocide. David is another story.

I also wanted to give you 3 more scriptures. With those you can see that verbal blaspheme is not just what it is about:
Matthew 7:21-23 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
I Corinthians 6:
9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.
Gal 5:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these : fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, 21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law. 24 And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof. 25 If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk. 26 Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another.​
With the scriptures you have received, you can as well as I see what is being said.

If you need me to spell something out, fine. I don't mind. However, it is always a matter of what is said; that should guide us in our daily lives. If your conscience doesn't condemn you, serve God and Christ, and if your sins are not of the kind that you cannot turn to God - do turn. It has nothing to do with me, but with God and his son, Christ, who forgives sins, but not everything, as you can see from scripture. And, I already conceded the point about murder; still, scripture paints a clear picture about the practice of serious sins. I am sure a lot of 'Christians' are going to get a surprise or two. But, let's hope God forgives as many as possible.



These are consequences to serious sins. They have nothing to do with repentance.

Scripture says 99% of sins are forgiven if committed against the son of god. (Even jesus forgave his betrayer). The sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven.

If one has not repent, jesus would turn that sinner away (for any sin unless you believe in purgatory) and say I have not known you. When a person commits a sin, they did an unrighteous deed. This scripture speaks of sinners not specific to murders only.

If a murderer repents and displays joy and fruits of the spirit, why would jesus say he had not known him and that he is unrighteous for having a change of heart?

All killing in the bible is considered murder. They all had intent regardless the reason, the person who did it on their own accord or a command from god, the consequence (eternal death) or benefit (getting one's chosen land). It is considered murder.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. Are you enduring in the Christian faith until either your death or the end of this world?

This says, but he who endures to the end, shall be saved. Are you enduring in the Christian faith until your death or the end of this world?

This has nothing to do with losing one's salvation. It just ask the question whether their practice is serious. Do they endure to the end or will you die (in your sins mostly) in this world. It's questioning your faith as a christian.

If a murder repents and displays the fruits of the spirit, why would taking a life, in your view, give him eternal life when the life, death, and resurrection (the whole gospels) relieved him of that as soon as he asked forgiveness?

Also, where in scripture does it say a murderer cannot be repent because god does not hear his prayers?

Specific question for a specific scripture that says god cannot hear the prayers of murderer.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
These are consequences to serious sins. They have nothing to do with repentance.

Scripture says 99% of sins are forgiven if committed against the son of god. (Even jesus forgave his betrayer). The sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven.

If one has not repent, jesus would turn that sinner away (for any sin unless you believe in purgatory) and say I have not known you. When a person commits a sin, they did an unrighteous deed. This scripture speaks of sinners not specific to murders only.

If a murderer repents and displays joy and fruits of the spirit, why would jesus say he had not known him and that he is unrighteous for having a change of heart?

All killing in the bible is considered murder. They all had intent regardless the reason, the person who did it on their own accord or a command from god, the consequence (eternal death) or benefit (getting one's chosen land). It is considered murder.
I think enough material has been exchanged so that you can make your conclusions as you see it. I have my own, even modified a little as per the scriptures you spoke of. I don't think rehashing it any more serves any purpose.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I think enough material has been exchanged so that you can make your conclusions as you see it. I have my own, even modified a little as per the scriptures you spoke of. I don't think rehashing it any more serves any purpose.
What scriptures talk directly and explicitly god not forgiving those who have taken a life after they have repented. (I don't like bold but repent is a key point you're missing in the scriptures you are quoting)

You're talking about punishment without repentance. I'm asking you how do you get punished and god not hear your prayers when you have repented.​

You're answering questions to those who have not repent. I'm asking a totally different question.

Also, you can't rebut scripture with scripture. How is "forgive all sins but one" wrong to include murder, when the murderer has already repented?​

You didn't answer the question just told me about people who will be punished and judged for their willingful actions.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
It is giving into our own evil temptations that has harmed humanity, it is our own inhumanity to man,

That would mean you'd have to forgive yourself for your sinful actions and not just other people. That's probably why people go to christ because it is hard to forgive themselves (their sin/personification of satan/evil).

It is hard to forgive yourself, but it is a huge stepping stone to spiritual growth. That's why it's a big question of forgiving satan. If a Christian can forgive satan, then that's a huge jump if defined by evil of the self because if that is true, you are forgiving yourself.

That's harder to do sometimes than forgiving others.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
You're talking about punishment without repentance.
As I said, enough material has been exchanged that you can make your own conclusions.

About punishment, I will address this one also. Forgiveness and punishment are two different subjects. If your teenage child breaks or damages a neighbor's property because of being an idiot, he may be forgiven once he has had his dressing down. However, depending on his age, he might also be asked by his parents to work off the damages, or some other punishment.

Similarly, while God may forgive serious sin, punishment never ever is not coming; it is a certainty that punishment shall fit the crime with mercy if repentance has been demonstrated.
Jeremiah 30:11 . . .However, in your case I shall make no extermination. And I shall have to correct you to the proper degree, as I shall by no means leave you unpunished.”​
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
About punishment, I will address this one also. Forgiveness and punishment are two different subjects. If your teenage child breaks or damages a neighbor's property because of being an idiot, he may be forgiven once he has had his dressing down. However, depending on his age, he might also be asked by his parents to work off the damages, or some other punishment.

Since a child does not always reflect on his own misdeeds, I'll use a adult. If an adult stole a pocket book when visiting his neighbor, and the neighbor found out, he may forgive the adult. If he does, that is not the end because the adult did not ask for repentance but just keep the apology and walked off with it. When you have any type of relationship with someone there is a give and take. So, not only would it be mindful for the adult to ask for forgiveness, he also needs to forgive himself. Repentance means change one's actions to reflect the forgiveness made by oneself and from others. It's a change of heart; so, they do relate to each other.

31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Ephesians 4:31-32​

Once the adult asks forgiveness and god forgives them, then they repent by changing their ways and being kind and compassionate towards other people.

Repent, then, of this evil plan of yours, and pray to the Lord that he will forgive you for thinking such a thing as this. (Acts 8:22)

But if that person doesn't ask forgiveness, then, of course by default your scriptures would be correct. However, since that murderer is changing his life (repenting), the verses you quoted does not match the benefit the murderer receives for asking repentance and receiving forgiveness with change of heart and mind.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9​

So, once you repent, your sins (99% including murder) will be forgiven. By christ's blood that murderer heart is purified and free for him to be kind and compassionate.

By saying that god does not hear a murderer's prayers (unless, again I ask if you can clarify it) to me is saying that murder cannot ask for forgiveness thereby your verses would be correct and mine rebutted.

Now if we were using two separate sources, I can see it. We are not. So, I am addressing your scriptures. How am I interpreting the scriptures "wrong" and why are 98% percent of sins forgiven when scripture says all but one?

25 “I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. 26 Review the past for me, let us argue the matter together; state the case for your innocence. Isaiah 43:25-26
I'm giving you all positive verses because what you are saying is that our deeds seal a christian's fate not the grace of god and sacrifice of his son.

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that he will forgive your sins. (Acts 3:19)

What more can I say unless you address these specific verses and explain how I am wrong.
 
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DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
So many say this. However, the question that then needs to be answered is what exactly constitutes this kind of sin.
I don't know if you saw the scriptures I just provided for the other discussion I had with a former Christian. If you like I will let you have this information, but not today, and not until Friday evening or afternoon.

Okay, no rush, just whenever you can would be fine.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
That's probably why people go to christ because it is hard to forgive themselves (their sin/personification of satan/evil).

It is in knowing this that I may forgive myself only because of God' grace. The forgiveness that God offers us is contingent upon our forgiveness of others.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Since a child does not always reflect on his own misdeeds, I'll use a adult. If an adult stole a pocket book when visiting his neighbor, and the neighbor found out, he may forgive the adult. If he does, that is not the end because the adult did not ask for repentance but just keep the apology and walked off with it. When you have any type of relationship with someone there is a give and take. So, not only would it be mindful for the adult to ask for forgiveness, he also needs to forgive himself. Repentance means change one's actions to reflect the forgiveness made by oneself and from others. It's a change of heart; so, they do relate to each other.

31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Ephesians 4:31-32​

Once the adult asks forgiveness and god forgives them, then they repent by changing their ways and being kind and compassionate towards other people.

Repent, then, of this evil plan of yours, and pray to the Lord that he will forgive you for thinking such a thing as this. (Acts 8:22)

But if that person doesn't ask forgiveness, then, of course by default your scriptures would be correct. However, since that murderer is changing his life (repenting), the verses you quoted does not match the benefit the murderer receives for asking repentance and receiving forgiveness with change of heart and mind.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9​

So, once you repent, your sins (99% including murder) will be forgiven. By christ's blood that murderer heart is purified and free for him to be kind and compassionate.

By saying that god does not hear a murderer's prayers (unless, again I ask if you can clarify it) to me is saying that murder cannot ask for forgiveness thereby your verses would be correct and mine rebutted.

Now if we were using two separate sources, I can see it. We are not. So, I am addressing your scriptures. How am I interpreting the scriptures "wrong" and why are 98% percent of sins forgiven when scripture says all but one?

25 “I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. 26 Review the past for me, let us argue the matter together; state the case for your innocence. Isaiah 43:25-26
I'm giving you all positive verses because what you are saying is that our deeds seal a christian's fate not the grace of god and sacrifice of his son.

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that he will forgive your sins. (Acts 3:19)

What more can I say unless you address these specific verses and explain how I am wrong.
You answered my post about the difference between forgiveness and punishment with the theme for forgiveness. Forgiveness never does away with punishment. Punishment shall come notwithstanding forgiveness - without fail. As Jeremiah said and Paul also, "And I shall have to correct you to the proper degree, as I shall by no means leave you unpunished.”

Your post about forgiveness was nice, but it has already been walked through.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You answered my post about the difference between forgiveness and punishment with the theme for forgiveness. Forgiveness never does away with punishment. Punishment shall come notwithstanding forgiveness - without fail. As Jeremiah said and Paul also, "And I shall have to correct you to the proper degree, as I shall by no means leave you unpunished.”

Your post about forgiveness was nice, but it has already been walked through.

I don't see life in "benefit vs punishment" mindset. That's too barbaric and romanistic for me.

The murderer suffers the consequences of his actions on earth, in this life as all the verses I quoted.

If he does not repent, the consequences (or punishment if you like) will follow him until the next life where god says he will be judged by his deeds as a christian.

If the muderer is a christian and repents, he is no longer in debt to his salvation. You are addressing something entirely different than what I am saying. Maybe it's because you use punishment when not everyone needs to be punished for their actions to know and experience the consequences of them.

The key word in your point I see is repentence. You would be correct if the person did not repent. Since he does, how is he still at a fault with god excluding that he will still experience the consequences of his actions?
 
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