The Contradiction of an All-powerful, All-knowing God

[scott777]

No one is going to destroy mankind ( nuclear or otherwise ).

Can I assume you know this because of the bible, which is the word of God? So therefore God must know this. But you said God has chosen Not to know our choices in advance.

It is a contradiction to say God knows that no-one will destroy mankind, yet he doesn’t know our choices in advance. It's also a contradiction to say he is all-knowing and yet chooses not to know some things.

But let’s put that aside. Let’s say someone is going to be as bad as Hitler or Pol Pot and kill millions. And God has chosen not to know. That would grossly negligent and he would be responsible for more evil in the world, and still would eventually punish the bad person. Why would he choose not to know in advance and then just send him straight to hell?

 

[ChristineM]

You atheists always try to make logic arguments about whether God can be this and that. You can't figure it out because you haven't been given enough information and the information you do have went through ignorant humans who were terrified of comets.

God does not judge. Jesus is the judge.

There is no hell. Hell is the idea of separation from God but nothing can truly separate from God so hell is like having your program turned off. Your file still exists with God but it will never be opened again. And when Jesus spoke of the idea of hell He was issuing a warning to Lucifer, not humans. You always think everything is or has to be about you.

The reason for life is so God can experience things He could not otherwise experience.

God is all knowing but He does not know that which He does not know. What all knowing means is that God now knows everything past, present, and future in the universe. All time is the exact same moment in heaven. But, it is possible that God could have a future plan for another universe where there is a random element added to free will personalities, meaning, God would not know what would happen until it happened.

Are you writing your own Bible? You seem to know very much that is impossible to know

 

[Nakosis]

Yes.

Fair enough.
What's your reasoning to find the Urantia Book to be trustworthy?

 

[DavidFirth]

I said that God “can therefore judge them even before giving them life.”

The ‘can’ bit means he is able to. That’s not an assumption. That’s the only rational conclusion to draw from God being all-knowing.

Are you suggesting God might be able to judge them but choose not to?

Well, the Bible tells us that God doesn't judge us before we're born but only after we die. Otherwise, there would be no judgement like the ones mentioned in Revelation.

God does predetermine but He can sometimes change His mind after the fact like He did with the city of Nineveh. They repented so God did not destroy them.

 

[scott777]

God's gift of free-will choices means God chooses to Not to know our choices in advance.

If God chooses not to know, then by definition he is not all-knowing.

 

[Super Universe]

Are you writing your own Bible? You seem to know very much that is impossible to know

No, I'm not writing my own bible. I don't have to.

It is impossible to know things that are impossible to know.

Ask yourself, how did Einstein come up with E=MC2? You think the idea just popped into his head? That's not what happened. Think again...

 

[ChristineM]

No, I'm not writing my own bible. I don't have to.

It is impossible to know things that are impossible to know.

Ask yourself, how did Einstein come up with E=MC2? You think the idea just popped into his head? That's not what happened. Think again...

Einstein worked it out based on sound scientific principals plus a bit of plagiarism, or at least by standing on others peoples shoulders.

Yes it is impossible but you seem to know the impossible, the mind and actions of your god, almost as though you god were in your own mind

 

[Super Universe]

Fair enough.
What's your reasoning to find the Urantia Book to be trustworthy?

Why do I believe in the UB? It explains things in a way that I find more believable.

God does not interfere in natural events nor does He interfere with free will.

Lucifer was not created by God to tempt humans. Angels are given free will and Lucifer rebelled against Jesus, not God.

The devil attempted to secede the earth from Jesus control during the Lucifer Rebellion. He is not the same being as Lucifer and he was not created to tempt you.

Evolution is true but angels started it and God causes the evolutionary events to happen.

Every stable life form is built in to DNA. Humanity did not come from a series of random mutations.

Adam and Eve were not the first humans. They were angels who were supposed to have children on the earth that would eventually mate with humans enabling humans to evolve much more quickly.

I could go on but by far the main thing is that God is not an angry and jealous God. How could the Creator of the universe be jealous of anything He created?

 

[scott777]

Well, the Bible tells us that God doesn't judge us before we're born but only after we die. Otherwise, there would be no judgement like the ones mentioned in Revelation.

God does predetermine but He can sometimes change His mind after the fact like He did with the city of Nineveh. They repented so God did not destroy them.

So if he’s all-knowing but does not judge us until death, then he MUST choose not to judge us before we are born. So no matter how terrible a person might be destined to become, no matter how ruinous they might be to his plan, no matter how evil, he chooses not to judge them, which would have allowed him to send them to hell before they do their evil deeds. Why would he choose that?

 

[DavidFirth]

So if he’s all-knowing but does not judge us until death, then he MUST choose not to judge us before we are born. So no matter how terrible a person might be destined to become, no matter how ruinous they might be to his plan, no matter how evil, he chooses not to judge them, which would have allowed him to send them to hell before they do their evil deeds. Why would he choose that?

I don't follow you. I'm not sure what it is that you don't understand.

 

[Super Universe]

Einstein worked it out based on sound scientific principals plus a bit of plagiarism, or at least by standing on others peoples shoulders.

Yes it is impossible but you seem to know the impossible, the mind and actions of your god, almost as though you god were in your own mind

Space is time? There was no scientific principle for space being time. Even today that is an advanced concept that scientists have trouble with.

E=MC2 was not something he just came up with. No being in the universe, except God, can come up with an original idea. It's impossible. Now, that does not mean that beings cannot have new ideas "pop" into their minds but when it happens it's coming from God. In this way God controls your advancement. He does not want His children to grow up too quickly.

You can actually test it. The next time you lose your car keys, look for them everywhere, if you don't find them go and sit on the couch and read a magazine. The location of your keys might just "pop" into your head in a few minutes.

I seem to know the impossible? I don't, you just don't know how the universe really works.

It's almost as if my God was in my mind? He's in every mind. You're just too occupied with the relationship, the bills, the kids, work, the home, and the car.

 

[scott777]

I don't follow you. I'm not sure what it is that you don't understand.

I am starting with an assumption that God is all-knowing and all-powerful. (Let me know if you don't agree). You said God does not judge us until death. Therefore God must choose not to judge us right from the start (being all-knowing, he must know exactly what we are going to do).

Why would he make that choice and allow the possibility of people to do terrible things, which could ruin his plan and cause millions of people to die? All he has to do is send them straight to hell before birth.

 

[ChristineM]

Space is time? There was no scientific principle for space being time. Even today that is an advanced concept that scientists have trouble with.

E=MC2 was not something he just came up with. No being in the universe, except God, can come up with an original idea. It's impossible. Now, that does not mean that beings cannot have new ideas "pop" into their minds but when it happens it's coming from God. In this way God controls your advancement. He does not want His children to grow up too quickly.

You can actually test it. The next time you lose your car keys, look for them everywhere, if you don't find them go and sit on the couch and read a magazine. The location of your keys might just "pop" into your head in a few minutes.

I seem to know the impossible? I don't, you just don't know how the universe really works.

It's almost as if my God was in my mind? He's in every mind. You're just too occupied with the relationship, the bills, the kids, work, the home, and the car.

You are confusing general relativity with mass energy equivalence.

And still you spout impossible to know scenarios for your gods actions and mind

And red herrings are not going to change that, remembering where your car keys are is a function of the brain, unless of course you can get your god into the witness stand.

Actually i know pretty well, for a lay person, how the universe works, again based on scientific principals and knowledge. No "doh i do t know so god"

And you are too occupied with fantasy

 

[DavidFirth]

I am starting with an assumption that God is all-knowing and all-powerful. (Let me know if you don't agree). You said God does not judge us until death. Therefore God must choose not to judge us right from the start (being all-knowing, he must know exactly what we are going to do).

Why would he make that choice and allow the possibility of people to do terrible things, which could ruin his plan and cause millions of people to die? All he has to do is send them straight to hell before birth.

I suppose He decided to do things His way instead of what you suggest. I know that He created for His glory.

Trying to understand how He thinks is quite impossible. First, He's holy and we are not holy. Second, His level of thinking is so far above our own that it would be like a dog trying to figure out what you do and why you do it. Just not possible; the dog doesn't have the thinking power or the intelligence to understand the human mind.

 

[Mister Silver]

I suppose He decided to do things His way instead of what suggest. I know that He created for His glory.

Trying to understand how He thinks is quite impossible. First, He's holy and we are not holy. Second, His level of thinking is so far above our own that it would be like a dog trying to figure out what you do and why you do it. Just not possible; the dog doesn't have the thinking power or the intelligence to understand the human mind.

What I always find interesting is that first theists make the claim that we cannot understand god because he is so above us, and then second theists claim to know god by informing everyone who doesn't believe in him all they know about him.

It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Super Universe]

You are confusing general relativity with mass energy equivalence.

And still you spout impossible to know scenarios for your gods actions and mind

And red herrings are not going to change that, remembering where your car keys are is a function of the brain, unless of course you can get your god into the witness stand.

Actually i know pretty well, for a lay person, how the universe works, again based on scientific principals and knowledge. No "doh i do t know so god"

And you are too occupied with fantasy

I am confusing GR with E=MC2? No, I'm not. I did not say both of those things came out of the same theory.

I still spout impossible to know scenario's? No one spouts impossible to know things.

Primitives are easily confused by red herrings? It's a tactic that helps us identify those who really want to learn and those who are just angry.

Remembering where your car keys are is a function of the brain? But if you are reading a magazine and a different idea, one you could not think of when you were trying to, suddenly "pops" into your mind, how is that your brain?

Can I get my God to the witness stand? What would you ask Him?

You know pretty well that the universe works on scientific principles? Okay, please explain what the Dual Slit Experiment means for how the universe works then.

I am too occupied with fantasy? An assembly of chemicals thinking is the fantasy.

 

[ChristineM]

I am confusing GR with E=MC2? No, I'm not. I did not say both of those things came out of the same theory.

I still spout impossible to know scenario's? No one spouts impossible to know things.

Primitives are easily confused by red herrings? It's a tactic that helps us identify those who really want to learn and those who are just angry.

Remembering where your car keys are is a function of the brain? But if you are reading a magazine and a different idea, one you could not think of when you were trying to, suddenly "pops" into your mind, how is that your brain?

Can I get my God to the witness stand? What would you ask Him?

You know pretty well that the universe works on scientific principles? Okay, please explain how the Dual Slit Experiment means for how the universe works then.

I am too occupied with fantasy? An assembly of chemicals thinking is the fantasy.

Then you deliberately tried to cloud the conversation and failed


You do, you seem sure of your gods mind and intentions. Yet you say no one knows impossible things to know, perhaps you don't see the conflict there?

Nope, its a tactic used by the hard of thinking to try and convince themselves they are really quite clever. Never works but they keep on throwing red herrings in the hope thast one day, just one day...

Are you not aware that the brain is capable of multitasking? How do you breath while reading a magazine?

I'd ask if the claims you were making had any relevance outside of your mind.

Another red herring. How childish. The dual slit experiment is designed to show photons have both wave and particle properties. It is only a quantum fraction of how the universe works.

Calling yourself an assembly of chemicals is a pretty accurate description.

 

[Super Universe]

Then you deliberately tried to cloud the conversation and failed


You do, you seem sure of your gods mind and intentions. Yet you say no one knows impossible things to know, perhaps you don't see the conflict there?

Nope, its a tactic used by the hard of thinking to try and convince themselves they are really quite clever. Never works but they keep on throwing red herrings in the hope thast one day, just one day...

Are you not aware that the brain is capable of multitasking? How do you breath while reading a magazine?

I'd ask if the claims you were making had any relevance outside of your mind.

Another red herring. How childish. The dual slit experiment is designed to show photons have both wave and particle properties. It is only a quantum fraction of how the universe works.

Calling yourself an assembly of chemicals is a pretty accurate description.

I deliberately tried to cloud the conversation and failed? Says the confused one.

I seem sure of God's mind and intentions? I'm sure of some things, not so sure about others.

I don't see the conflict in knowing impossible to know things? There is no conflict. Look up the Akashic Record and we will go from there. I will walk you through it. Maybe you should start a new thread on it?

Red herrings are a tactic used by the hard of thinking to convince themselves that they are quite clever? That must be it. Yep. That has to be it.

We keep throwing red herrings in the hope that one day? One day what? You humans always think you are important to the universe. That it cannot go on without you. It can and it does.

Am I aware that the brain is capable of multi-tasking? It cannot multi-task but it can make decisions very quickly if it has to. You can only make one decision at a time but well known tasks can be done very quickly. This is why people don't always hear what others say, because their mind is elsewhere. And it is why people get into accidents when they are talking on the phone while driving.

How do I breathe while reading a magazine? The same way I breathe while sleeping.

You would ask God if the claims that I made have any relevance outside SU's mind? He answers "Some do." Now what?

The dual slit experiment is designed to show that photons have both wave and particle properties? Correct, but that's not all. It shows that the universe only forms when there is a viewer. How does the universe know you are viewing a certain part of it?

The dual slit experiment is only a quanutm fraction of how the universe works? The universe is particles so if the dual slit experiment explains that a non-three dimensional wave forms three dimensional particles only when viewed that means what then?

Calling myself an assembly of chemicals is a pretty accurate description? I was not referring to myself.

 

[Nakosis]

Why do I believe in the UB? It explains things in a way that I find more believable.

God does not interfere in natural events nor does He interfere with free will.

Lucifer was not created by God to tempt humans. Angels are given free will and Lucifer rebelled against Jesus, not God.

The devil attempted to secede the earth from Jesus control during the Lucifer Rebellion. He is not the same being as Lucifer and he was not created to tempt you.

Evolution is true but angels started it and God causes the evolutionary events to happen.

Every stable life form is built in to DNA. Humanity did not come from a series of random mutations.

Adam and Eve were not the first humans. They were angels who were supposed to have children on the earth that would eventually mate with humans enabling humans to evolve much more quickly.

I could go on but by far the main thing is that God is not an angry and jealous God. How could the Creator of the universe be jealous of anything He created?

I understand. When I first heard of Gnostic theology, this also made much more sense to me than Christian doctrine. The Quran makes more sense to some who then decide to convert to Islam. Then there's the Book of Mormon which other folks find sensible.

Some parts of it may support your own experiences. Parts of it may even be validated, like historical parts of the Bible. Doesn't mean you have to accept any parts of it which you can't verify.

A good narrative will use facts, validated historical evidence to make it more believable.

If I was going to create a book on metaphysical truth, that's exactly what I would do. I'd take my visions, dreams, inspirations provide reasonable interpretations and conclusions and intersperse it with verifiable facts historical evidence/documents. First hand accounts all in support of this narrative of truth. 100% intention on my part to provide beneficial information to my fellow man.

Would I have anything other than my visions, inspirations to base this on? Not really.

You have to judge for yourself what belief/set of beliefs is best for you to rely on. Personally, I was never satisfied with a good, convincing narrative. They are not really that difficult to create. It's a type of sophistry that sometimes even the narrator has convinced himself of its truth. In fact, conviction in one's own narrative folks find very convincing.

Believe what you feel is correct to believe but reserve any real conviction until you are able to verify every part of it is my position.

In any of my beliefs, I am ready to be shown I am 100% wrong but that requires proof and validation.

If you are just relating the truth according to the UB, fine. Anyone choose to accept the claims of the UB for what it's worth. You seem to be posting from a position of certainty about what it claims to be true however and you're not really.

You're speaking from the position of accepting a convincing narrative like any of the folks from any other of these various religions.

 

[Nakosis]

Nope, its a tactic used by the hard of thinking to try and convince themselves they are really quite clever. Never works but they keep on throwing red herrings in the hope thast one day, just one day...

Yes... That's what I'm on about, trying to convince myself I am really quite clever.