Capitalism and Christianity

[Fool]

You're equivocating over a point that doesnt change the validity of my conclusion. Replace "money" with "mammon" in my sentence and my point stands unchanged and unchallenged, because I used the terms interchangeably in that sentence (and I agree they are technically different, but that distinction is not relevant to my point).

My point was that you took those scriptures out of context by implying they were revelant to the original question. But they arent, as your own defintion of capitalism proves.



As I already said, you may be stating what you believe about capitalism's relationship to Christianity, but what you are not doing with your statement, as you have yet to do in any of your statements, is disprove my challenge to you by demonstrating why your first two uses of scripture are actually relevant to the question you posed.

You will not be able to do that, by your own defintion of capitalism, because those two verses have absolutely nothing to do with capitalism unless you change your defintion of capitalism to inherently involve theft and serving mammon rather than God.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt by assuming your scriptures were intended to be revelant to your question. So either your definiton of capitalism was wrong, or you sloppily misused the scriptures and didnt realize that they had no logical connection to your question.

actually i could use the whole bible to show that capitalism isn't advocated. it wasn't expedient to post all the examples on wealth and selfishness in the original post.

Matthew 23:25
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.

unfortunately language isn't precise.
https://www.cut-the-knot.org/language/parrot.shtml
it's called a dumb parrot puzzle. unless you wish to claim friends are a type of capital, you can't be a capitalist and a friend at the some moment. capitalism isn't mutually beneficial to ALL.

capitalism generally is a selfish act in order to gain something for self in interest and at a disadvantage to another.

 

[Kenny]

actually i could use the whole bible to show that capitalism isn't advocated. it wasn't expedient to post all the examples on wealth and selfishness in the original post.

Actually, you would have to cherry pick to arrive that capitalism isnt advocated.

Matthew 23:25
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.

unfortunately language isn't precise.

Has nothing to do with capitalism... has everything to do with the heart.

it's called a dumb parrot puzzle. unless you wish to claim friends are a type of capital, you can't be a capitalist and a friend at the some moment. capitalism isn't mutually beneficial to ALL.

It was never meant for the lazy to stay lazy, thus "If a man will not work, let him not eat.

capitalism generally is a selfish act in order to gain something for self in interest and at a disadvantage to another.

Negatory. Covetousness is a selfish act in order to gain something for self in interest and at a disadvantage to another

 

[Scott C.]

Which one is "if you don't donate all of your money, God will strike you down"?

Which one is "if you are rich, you'll suffer some unspecified 'woe'"?

God commands us to care for the poor and needy. But he does not command us to require it of others through legislation. As far as I can tell the Bible is silent on the subject of the role of government in caring for the poor. A true Christian (or any good person for that matter) will give to the poor out of love and not out of fear that God will punish them if they do not.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God commands us to care for the poor and needy.

Does he?

But he does not command us to require it of others through legislation. As far as I can tell the Bible is silent on the subject of the role of government in caring for the poor.

I've touched on this before: IMO, the Jesus of the Gospels assumes that his followers will always be poor and marginalized, never achieving enough political power to make the government require anything of anyone.

A true Christian (or any good person for that matter) will give to the poor out of love and not out of fear that God will punish them if they do not.

Since the Gospels frequently describes Jesus appealing to people's self-interest as a reason to do what he wants them to do, it seems other motives besides love are acceptable.

 

[Kenny]

Does he?


I've touched on this before: IMO, the Jesus of the Gospels assumes that his followers will always be poor and marginalized, never achieving enough political power to make the government require anything of anyone.


Since the Gospels frequently describes Jesus appealing to people's self-interest as a reason to do what he wants them to do, it seems other motives besides love are acceptable.

??????

 

[Scott C.]

Since the Gospels frequently describes Jesus appealing to people's self-interest as a reason to do what he wants them to do, it seems other motives besides love are acceptable.

There are acceptable and unacceptable motives for doing good. Among the acceptable motives, some are better than others.

The desire to receive the blessings that God gives to the faithful is acceptable. Duty is also an acceptable motive. I would put "fear of hell" at the bottom of the "acceptable" list. But, I believe Charity (Love) is the highest motive and is the attribute God wants us to develop most.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. (1 Corinthians 13:3)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

??????

Use your words.

 

[Kenny]

Use your words.

How in the world did you come to that conclussion?

 

[SinSaber]

I would say that socialism cares about the well-being and quality of life for all the people in a society - at least as far as basic sustenance, housing, healthcare, education, and other such necessities of life. Socialism cares about all individuals in a society.

Individualism is overrated anyway. We have too much hyper-individualism in this society to the point where everyone is turning selfish, greedy, and narcissistic. All these "special snowflakes" who believe the whole world revolves around them. That's what happens in a society which overemphasizes individualism, as opposed to teamwork and cooperation. Now, it's all about "me, me, me." It wasn't always this way.



It depends on the circumstances and the type of government in place, but the law of eminent domain is used even in our own capitalist society which supports private property rights. If the "group" decides it wants to build a road across your property, then they'll still have to pay you for it, but that's how it is - even in "free" America.

If you want to call that "fascist," then go right ahead. I happen to think the drug laws are also fascist, so one can find many aspects of "fascism" even in our own "free," "democratic," and "capitalist" society.

That basically means you find being human overrated. I bet the grey world from "A Wrinkle in Time" is dream come true for you

 

[Sleeppy]

God commands us to care for the poor and needy. But he does not command us to require it of others through legislation. As far as I can tell the Bible is silent on the subject of the role of government in caring for the poor. A true Christian (or any good person for that matter) will give to the poor out of love and not out of fear that God will punish them if they do not.

Actually.. You need to do more research before you make anymore "as far as I can tell" statements.

Caring for the poor is mandated in both Mosaic and Christian law.

 

[Fool]

Actually, you would have to cherry pick to arrive that capitalism isnt advocated.

you'd have to cherry pick to arrive at anything; unless you handed them the whole tree and walked away. jesus cherry picked by using snippets from the OT.

are you implying that Jesus advocated plutolatry? can you show me a single verse?


i've yet to meet anyone who eats all his meals in one bite or someone who feeds adult meals to the immature or incapacitated, neither does anyone sow a single hill/hole with all the grains, nor takes a journey of a 1000 miles in one step.

Has nothing to do with capitalism... has everything to do with the heart.

i can agree with that. a stony heart has no empathy, compassion. it lacks god, or love, for other as self. it projects a difference between self and other as self.
Luke 6:45
A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

It was never meant for the lazy to stay lazy, thus "If a man will not work, let him not eat.

so the man was cast out and made to till the soil, or cultivate in his body the tree of life.

Negatory. Covetousness is a selfish act in order to gain something for self in interest and at a disadvantage to another

you can't have a capitalism that is of interest and advantage to some at the expense to others. there could be no gain. everyone would reap equally.

God, or love, makes the sunshine and rain to fall equally on the good and the evil.

that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

 

[Scott C.]

Actually.. You need to do more research before you make anymore "as far as I can tell" statements.

Caring for the poor is mandated in both Mosaic and Christian law.

As I said in my post, caring for the poor is a commandment (mandate) of God. The Bible is silent on what role the government should or should not play in caring for the poor (as far as I can tell). If you have Bible passages that say otherwise, I would like to see them so I can evaluate for myself.

 

[Stevicus]

That basically means you find being human overrated. I bet the grey world from "A Wrinkle in Time" is dream come true for you

Come again?

 

[Kenny]

you'd have to cherry pick to arrive at anything; unless you handed them the whole tree and walked away. jesus cherry picked by using snippets from the OT.

are you implying that Jesus advocated plutolatry? can you show me a single verse?

How you got from point a to point b (plutolatry) is beyond me or a strawman. At this point I don't think you meant it as a strawman.

He advocated capitalism with a heart.

i've yet to meet anyone who eats all his meals in one bite or someone who feeds adult meals to the immature or incapacitated, neither does anyone sow a single hill/hole with all the grains, nor takes a journey of a 1000 miles in one step.

I can agree with that.

i can agree with that. a stony heart has no empathy, compassion. it lacks god, or love, for other as self. it projects a difference between self and other as self.
Luke 6:45
A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

Agreed again!

so the man was cast out and made to till the soil, or cultivate in his body the tree of life.

Application please.

you can't have a capitalism that is of interest and advantage to some at the expense to others. there could be no gain. everyone would reap equally.

Why does capitalism have to be of "advantage" vs "profit"? Why is at the expense of others? I purchased a chair. The one who sold the chair made a profit and I received a beautiful chair. Both gained.

God, or love, makes the sunshine and rain to fall equally on the good and the evil.

that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Agreed... but still don't understand your train of thought.

 

[Sleeppy]

As I said in my post, caring for the poor is a commandment (mandate) of God. The Bible is silent on what role the government should or should not play in caring for the poor (as far as I can tell). If you have Bible passages that say otherwise, I would like to see them so I can evaluate for myself.

The government isn't somehow exempt from God's command. God's commands are to be the government of society.

That's fundamental. Just pick up the Bible and pick a page a random.

 

[Fool]

How you got from point a to point b (plutolatry) is beyond me or a strawman. At this point I don't think you meant it as a strawman.

He advocated capitalism with a heart.

please explain what capitalism is with a heart?

humans have hearts. either a selfish heart, stony heart, or empathetic and compassionate heart.

Revelation 2:17
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

Ezekiel 11:19
I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

we know a person by the Spirit of their Hearts. the whole bible is about selfishness vs selflessness.

if the seller sold it above the cost, then he/she profited. if a person loans another money, and charges interest, that is a profit.

if a person loans another money with no interest, there is no profit.
if a person sells an item at cost to them, there is no profit.

 

[Kenny]

please explain what capitalism is with a heart?

humans have hearts. either a selfish heart, stony heart, or empathetic and compassionate heart.

Revelation 2:17
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

Ezekiel 11:19
I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

we know a person by the Spirit of their Hearts. the whole bible is about selfishness vs selflessness.

if the seller sold it above the cost, then he/she profited. if a person loans another money, and charges interest, that is a profit.

if a person loans another money with no interest, there is no profit.
if a person sells an item at cost to them, there is no profit.

This has no continuity.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How in the world did you come to that conclussion?

By actually reading the Gospels.

 

[Scott C.]

The government isn't somehow exempt from God's command. God's commands are to be the government of society.

That's fundamental. Just pick up the Bible and pick a page a random.

I don't agree that God intends that all of his laws be governmental laws. For example, I believe we are commanded to pray, but God does not expect us to pass laws that require us to pray. For that matter, it's a commandment to be baptized. God does not expect us to pass laws that require baptism.

 

[Rise]

actually i could use the whole bible to show that capitalism isn't advocated.

Not if you can't even justify your use of two scriptures.

Your two scriptures still remain either irrevelant to your question or grossly taken out of context, and you're still dodging taking responsibility for that by not even attempting to justify them.

it wasn't expedient to post all the examples on wealth and selfishness in the original post.

Why would you? You didnt ask if wealth and selfishness was incompatible with christianity. You asked if capitalism was incompatible with christianity. But capitalism by your own definition has nothing to do with selfishness, but is by definition merely the ownership of property. You're in logical checkmate unless you change your definition of capitalism.

capitalism isn't mutually beneficial to ALL.
capitalism generally is a selfish act in order to gain something for self in interest and at a disadvantage to another.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. That's what I was looking for.
Your idea of capitalism is not even compatible with the link you posted to it's definiton.

You are basically calling capitalism theft. Which is why you posted a scripture that deals with theft in your first post. A scripture that would make no sense unless you thought of capitalism as theft.

You just proved that I was right to assume the things I did about your implied assertions, and was not jumping the gun.

This is also why I said you cannot expect to ask this question unless you are willing to define what you think capitalism is. Because we can tell by your original misuse of scripture that you either didn't understand scripture or your don't understand economic terminology - we just needed to establish which one to diagnose where the logical problem was.

i reject your starting premise as a baseless and unfounded assertion, the idea that capitalism by definition always requires someone to lose for someone else to gain. The onus is on you to prove your claim that capitalism must necessarily result in such a dynamic and therefore is inherently wrong, especially since your claim goes against commonly accepted defintions of free market capitalism as a mutually beneficial and willing exchange between free peoples.

Unless your can first validate your claims about capitalism as inherently win/lose rather than win/win, and demonstrate with reason why that is true, there is no point in trying to talk about how it compares to scripture. Because you have not established first that your premise is even true.

Furthermore, I can disprove your claim about there being no win/win private ownership of the means of production with a simple thought exercise. Take two people on 10km of land. For simplicity these are the only two people on earth and the earth is only 10km square. They each own 5km of land. They each grow a different crop to sustain themselves. One trades thier excess apples for the other's excess pears at an amount they both agree too. Neither is forced by necessity to make this trade, but they desire to for variety's sake.
Who loses here? Answer: no one. They both are better off and win by the exchange.
Disproving your claim that capitalism must necessarily by its nature result in win/loss scenarios.