How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes you are right they are titles yet not in all passages, but my point was that in Arabic Bibles at that time they were never the less translated as Baha’u’llah. Strictly speaking, the name of Baha’u’llah did appear in the Arabic Bible’s of that time and even more interestingly a lot of the times they were prophecies.

In Ezekiel the Glory of God is clearly described as a Person not a light or just 8n a descriptive manner.

Ezekiel 43:1-12

Then he led me to the gate, the gate facing east. And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the east. And the sound of his coming was like the sound of many waters, and the earth shone with his glory. And the vision I saw was just like the vision that I had seen when he came to destroy the city, and just like the vision that I had seen by the Chebar canal. And I fell on my face. As the glory of the Lord entered the temple by the gate facing east, the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple. ...

If you look at thousands of churches throughout the world you will see they are dedicated to ‘the Glory of God’. In a way so near yet so far. They have all sensed a great significance in the term Glory of God’ even greater than dedicating their churches to Christ!

In Revelation Christians have been told to expect ‘a new name’ and ‘a new song’ and that ‘all things would be made new’. What other than that of a new Revelation from God could this be referring to specifically as it speaks of Christ’s Return?

I honestly don't see how Glory to God translate as the Lamb and Ruler of nations that sets God's nation back again with his chosen people. If anything, when Christ was born he was given one name, when he became The Christ, that was another descriptive-name, then before he died, he became The Lamb, and when he died, he became The Savior, and he said he would return as his god told him... and unless there are more than one Glory to God's and Lambs, unless explicitly written, I can't find the connection.

Translating Greek to Arabic causes more problems since one language can't be one hundred percent translate to another by language and culture. That and Greek and Arabic are totally different in culture and vicinity. I mean, I don't know how verifiable The English King James is and that was in 1811, I think I looked up.

Christ received a new body when he went to heaven. When he comes back, he is said to have a glories body riding on chariots etc in Revelations. It's like all arrows are pointing to a specific Glory to God-Christ not just any, but the lamb of god.

Unless Bahaullah is named The Lamb of god, I'm still trying to find the connection from a christian perspective.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In the Gospels Jesus is referred to as the ‘lamb that was crucified’ and the ‘paschall’ Lamb. However in Revelation ‘the lamb that was slain’ (not crucified) is described as an ‘arnion’ lamb. Only in Revelation is made mention of a different lamb to the Gospels which we believe is the Bab Who was slain not crucified.

There are many sects in Christianity but Christ encouraged us to see with our own eyes and use our own minds. Truth is not necessarily contained or found in what is popularly held to be the truth.

Hmmm. I understand where you're coming from. You got to understand, the bible is strictly a Jewish and Christian text. Muslims and Bahai (etc) can adopt the text as sacred but they are not part of sacred part because they are not part of the text. If they were, there'd be no need for the Quran and Bahaullah's writings.

If I made a guess, the second lamb is probably christ in his glorified body. I mean, The Bab isn't judging who goes to heaven and who doesn't'; it's Christ who says "I haven't known you" on judgement day.

Christ sits at the right hand of the father not The Bab. I don't think Muslims think Muhammad sits at the right hand of the father just him being the last prophet not equal to the creator.

Revelations is very hard to read. I don't agree that the lord's supper is symbolism but if talking about golden streets, pearls, and jewels, it sounds symbolic for how the author described the nature of heaven in his own words.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I honestly don't see how Glory to God translate as the Lamb and Ruler of nations that sets God's nation back again with his chosen people. If anything, when Christ was born he was given one name, when he became The Christ, that was another descriptive-name, then before he died, he became The Lamb, and when he died, he became The Savior, and he said he would return as his god told him... and unless there are more than one Glory to God's and Lambs, unless explicitly written, I can't find the connection.

Translating Greek to Arabic causes more problems since one language can't be one hundred percent translate to another by language and culture. That and Greek and Arabic are totally different in culture and vicinity. I mean, I don't know how verifiable The English King James is and that was in 1811, I think I looked up.

Christ received a new body when he went to heaven. When he comes back, he is said to have a glories body riding on chariots etc in Revelations. It's like all arrows are pointing to a specific Glory to God-Christ not just any, but the lamb of god.

Unless Bahaullah is named The Lamb of god, I'm still trying to find the connection from a christian perspective.

Dear Carlita,

It took me years to join the dots but one day the penny just dropped and it all made sense after a lot of questions. It’s like getting together different prices of a jigsaw puzzle in ones mind and gradually putting a mosaic together.

The early disciples didn’t have too many intellectual trappings so saw the reality of Christ almost instantly whereas the highly intellectual high priests we’re ensanated by their own theories and ended up failing to see the Beauty of God when He appeared to them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But that is so strange.
The Divine Words of God as passed to His Ordained Prophet, being oblique and needing further clarification?

Strange....

How strange, why so? Have not arguments broken apart all Faiths of the Past. Thus I offer what will unfold, as time is short so are my explanations....sorry if they seem blunt.

This is the Faith that many attempts will not lead to a lasting break. All are doomed to fade into oblivion and the future will see the Baha'i Faith unbroken into mans many paths.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

There is no greater Truth than that Faith is our own Choice.

I have no idea what you mean. There have been a multitude of statements that there is no greater truth than _________. So who knows? I also fail to understand why it is that you capitalise certain words. Is it for emphasis, is it Baha'i'speak, or is if just some random methodology I am unaware of?

Here it is Truth, Faith and Choice. But maybe another day it'll look like this .... There Is no Greater truth that That faith is our Own choice. I Have no Idea,

 

[loverofhumanity]

But that is so strange.
The Divine Words of God as passed to His Ordained Prophet, being oblique and needing further clarification?

Strange....

Just out of interest I wonder why you place the blame on God’s Word instead of man having become so unspiritual that he cannot understand spiritual terms anymore only material things like binge drinking and partying?

Had man maintained his spiritual nature these things might be very clear to him as they are to the Baha’is.

The readiness to jump the gun and blame God for man’s spiritual waywardness indicates bias to me. Man who has been the cause of world wars and genocides and a holocaust can he in such a condition be expected to have any understanding of God’s Words at all?

It is man who has chosen to turn away from God to the extent he can’t even understand spiritual terms anymore but he knows where the nearest pub and nightclub or casino is doesn’t he?

 

[Vinayaka]

I personally have Faith in God that all the choices I face are a bounty in growth.

That we have been given the ability to know what is of God is thought provoking. As to me it means God knows our choices and puts in front of us what feeds our heart desires.

If the heart desires anything that is not of God, then the heart will have it.

This is my fear of God, that God will continue to allow my own free will. It is hard to say with any outward logic, but I no longer want any of me.

I have no fear of God, but then 'God' is one of those words that truly means something very different, depending on religion, and paradigm. My version of Hinduism is very monistic, whereas all Abrahamic faiths are very dualistic. My God is knowable, yours is unknowable, etc. Same old same old.

Wow, no random capitals this time. That's impressive.

 

[Vinayaka]

No where. @Vinayaka explained it better. In my words, it's energy that never dies but is reborn in each life until the mind/thoughts/awareness knows that everything is impermanent (changing and unchanging). Thereby, you're not attached (dependent) on anything, then your mind is enlightened.

No where. It's a state of being not a place it resides.

Awareness is separate from mind. Awareness just travels through areas of the one universal mind. For some, many doors to the vast castle of the mind are open, for others, there are very few doors. Awareness is stuck in one room.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Dear Carlita,

It took me years to join the dots but one day the penny just dropped and it all made sense after a lot of questions. It’s like getting together different prices of a jigsaw puzzle in ones mind and gradually putting a mosaic together.

The early disciples didn’t have too many intellectual trappings so saw the reality of Christ almost instantly whereas the highly intellectual high priests we’re ensanated by their own theories and ended up failing to see the Beauty of God when He appeared to them.

Yeah. It makes your smile that eureka moment comes through. Had that earlier with a couple of events and now I have a jump spring to know what I need to focus on in my Dhamma practice. Patience is a huge factor too.

 

[Vinayaka]

There were problems in the family....... I am sure that Abdul Baha missed a generation, passing authority to his grandson. There were also problems with siblings I believe.

And lifelong supporters were excommunicated after Shogi Effendi's death in various kinds of power struggles.

One of the most clear writers about Bahai that I read and who has posted here is also estranged in some way, for some reason.

It does seem that some alternative viewpoints will be estranged and thus lose voting rights etc.

Just the nature of any power struggle. Stuff happens. people shout, people run away mad, people gloat. It's all instinctive animalistic behaviour unbecoming of our species. Still, on some level (ego level) it's perfectly normal.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Awareness is separate from mind. Awareness just travels through areas of the one universal mind. For some, many doors to the vast castle of the mind are open, for others, there are very few doors. Awareness is stuck in one room.

I kinda explained it as river, banks, and the ocean. River being the mind, the banks the body, and the ocean the full awareness or enlightenment. We think what we are now is not changing (that the banks define the river) and try to hold the river by dams. The mind keeps changing and doesn't stop. Then when full awareness happens (in this case birth/death) then all is settled but still changing and unchanging but not inappropriately defined as river rather than oceans through banks and lands.

I don't understand the concept of universal mind, though. I understand why the question had been asked. I mean, when you die if there is no body, literally, where is the mind. If there was no energy or transition of thoughts and awareness from one body to the next until enlightenment, I honestly don't know how to answer the question.

In other words, how do you describe the nature of the river deeper than the connection to the ocean, when one is stuck at defining it by the land and banks with only a glimpse of what is the sea?

Edit Oh. If awareness is separate from the mind, why call it awareness in the English language? I know Buddhism has some mysticism in it but I'm not a Tibetan Buddhist so a lot of it I don't know first hand.

What is awareness (the nature of the river) if separate from the mind (the ocean)?

 

[Vinayaka]

So if you’re born again into this world you might be born even into a Muslim family if that will be what will enable you to grow spiritually?

At that time you would denounce reincarnation so where would be Vinayaka the Hindu?

It's not random like that. There is much more to it. If it was Islam, it would be Sufi or some other non-violent mystical sect. Although there are no religions directly involved, there is consciousness. There are high minded Christians, Muslims, etc, and stupid anava laced Hindus. So it's not the religion, built the level of maturity of the soul.

Last time I was a Hindu. I got the wrong address this time, but eventually returned home. Of course Vinayaka the person won't exist. Just a soul.

I watched one soul in transition from a non-religious family once upon a time. She was running all over the place, quite lost, I'm not sure what eventually happened. When there is no preparation for stuff, that's what happens. Similar to a panic attack right after transition. But I'm sure that soul eventually found another body too.

 

[Vinayaka]

I kinda explained it as river, banks, and the ocean. River being the mind, the banks the body, and the ocean the full awareness or enlightenment. We think what we are now is not changing (that the banks define the river) and try to hold the river by dams. The mind keeps changing and doesn't stop. Then when full awareness happens (in this case birth/death) then all is settled but still changing and unchanging but not inappropriately defined as river rather than oceans through banks and lands.

I don't understand the concept of universal mind, though. I understand why the question had been asked. I mean, when you die if there is no body, literally, where is the mind. If there was no energy or transition of thoughts and awareness from one body to the next until enlightenment, I honestly don't know how to answer the question.

In other words, how do you describe the nature of the river deeper than the connection to the ocean, when one is stuck at defining it by the land and banks with only a glimpse of what is the sea?

You use the same analogy as my first Guru. One of the lessons was entitled 'The River of Life'.

Editted for download... eBookStore free download: The River of Life by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami PDF | Download free eReader books

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You use the same analogy as my first Guru. One of the lessons was entitled 'The River of Life'.

Cool. So, let me ask. Is the ocean Moksha in Hinduism as to a Buddhist, we see it enlightenment as no rebirth?

 

[Vinayaka]

Cool. So, let me ask. Is the ocean Moksha in Hinduism as to a Buddhist, we see it enlightenment as no rebirth?

Moksha, for Hindus, is freedom from the cycle of samsara. It is an outcome of nirvikalpa samadhi (called enlightenment in Buddhism, I think) Some modern people use these words interchangeably. But technically, moksha is just freedom from samsara. Some universalists, or Abrahamics have incorrectly translated it as 'heaven'.

 

[Vinayaka]

It is only the Great Beings that are born of the Holy Spirit.

All of us, Humanity are born of the Human Spirit, which must connect with the Spirit of Faith to allow the Holy Spirit to shine from.

And the Baha'i' get to decide or determine who is of the holy spirit, and who is merely of the human spirit. So there are only 2 choices. Two doors from which to arrive. Either you is holy, or you is human.

In Dharmic faiths we see an entire spectrum from wise (old souls) to not so wise (younger souls), but all with a spark of the divine. So everyone has a place. There are a multitude of doors from which we arrived here.

Very Different Paradigms.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Moksha, for Hindus, is freedom from the cycle of samsara. It is an outcome of nirvikalpa samadhi (called enlightenment in Buddhism, I think) Some modern people use these words interchangeably. But technically, moksha is just freedom from samsara. Some universalists, or Abrahamics have incorrectly translated it as 'heaven'.

Hmm. I'm trying to differentiate what you're saying from Buddhism (edit) rather because outside of god, it sounds very very similar in concept.

We do call it enlightenment which is the end of rebirth, I call it, or samsara. There is no god (or Brahma, I should say rather) component to enlightenment; so, I know it's different.

Maybe the goal samsara is the same but different oceans one of wisdom of suffering (Buddhism) and one of union with god (Hinduism)?

 

[Vinayaka]

I offer with this you Live.

What? What? "I offer with this you Live." I can see no meaning in that whatsoever. Anybody want to translate this for me?

 

[Vinayaka]

Hmm. I'm trying to differentiate what you're saying from Buddhism (edit) rather because outside of god, it sounds very very similar in concept.

We do call it enlightenment which is the end of rebirth, I call it, or samsera. There is no god (or Brahma, I should say rather) component to enlightenment; so, I know it's different.

Maybe the goal samsara is the same but different oceans one of wisdom of suffering (Buddhism) and one of god (Hinduism)?

Brahman, and whether or not it's God, is an ongoing debate within Hindu circles. My friend Aupmanyav insists it's not God. I say it is, but a very differing concept than the Abrahamic God. In that sense I'm an atheist ... atheist to the Abrahamic God. I simple don't believe that that God exists. 'God' was a very poor translation of Brahman, but now maybe we're stuck with it.

 

[Vinayaka]

Just out of interest I wonder why you place the blame on God’s Word instead of man having become so unspiritual that he cannot understand spiritual terms anymore only material things like binge drinking and partying?

What's with your focus on binge drinking and partying? You must live in some very unusual place. Are there no decent people where you live? You make it sound like there are only two kinds of people, Baha'i' and partying, drunken sots. I have news for you.