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How are these Great Beings explained?

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Happy birthday Tony, I hope you are having an excellent day with not too much tme on RF. Nice to have you here though.:)

Thank you Adrian. Normanton is now in the build up to the wet season, it is just getting to hot to be outside. The storms missed us today, so heat and wind, but no rain.

Thus you may have noticed I did some reading. Posted a couple....ha ha.

Hope you are well and happy. Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree. That's why I'm a member of a faith that insists on questioning everything. It's compulsory. But this question you asked, in my view, isn't a tough question at all. It's answer is easy, and I gave it to you.

Thank you for sharing the video. I think Paramacharya Sadasivanathaswami is a very good speaker and ambassador for Hinduism. He has a very pleasant and gentle nature.

I really liked hearing about Hinduism from a Westerner. I haven't seen too many Hindus who are not of Indian descent. One of my colleagues when I was working in psychiatry converted to Hinduism (ISHKON) but the religion seemed to make him less at ease with himself.

The video also highlighted how interwoven Hinduism is with the fabric of Indian culture. I checked out a few other videos too. One identified Hinduism as the greatest religion which made sense.

Hinduism seems more esoteric and harder to connect with than say Buddhism. Then again, my wifes family have links to Buddhism and one of my best friends is Buddhist. I've started going to a local Indian/Nepalise restaurant during my weekly travels out of town. I find myself thinking Hinduism more and more these days.

Thanks again for hanging out on this thread.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you Adrian. Normanton is now in the build up to the wet season, it is just getting to hot to be outside. The storms missed us today, so heat and wind, but no rain.

Thus you may have noticed I did some reading. Posted a couple....ha ha.

Hope you are well and happy. Regards Tony

Very good.

We had the nineteen day feast here so it was a pleasure to catch up with some old friends. I came across a Persian man Vahid who first told me about Rumi over 20 years ago and then he returned to Iran. He just returned back to New Zealand a few weeks ago now married with two 2 teenage sons, so it was reminded of Rumi again.

I have been grappling with Hinduism and Vinayaka kindly sent me a video you assist. You're obviously doing reading too so all the best with that.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm curious. Why do Bahai consider themselves descendants of Abraham?

We recognise a lineage of prophets whose descendants can be traced from Abraham. Baha'u'llah and Bab's lineage can be traced all the way back to Abraham.

9e7b19ea95505433f9731d6e29643b24--judaism-quotations.jpg


Where in biblical history and the bible does it talk about anyone outside the prophets?

Some scholars estimate that about 30% of the bible is prophecy. Whether Daniel, Isaiah, Jesus on the Mount of Olives, or Revelation, there is a great deal about the future and an era of peace in the world and the chaos that comes beforehand.

If you were to fit Bahaullah's writings in the bible, from a christian and jewish view, where would it fit?

We have the OT, NT, Quran, and Baha'i writings in that order. As the NT is an addition to the OT which builds upon Hebrew traditions, the Baha'i writings are the latest chapter in the book of Divine revelation Abrahamic style.

Probably other religions believe in the god of abraham and abraham himself but are not religions of abraham because they don't follow the history that connects them to Jewish and Christian heritage.

Islam is definitely Abrahamic with Quran suras based on OT stories and recognition of Jesus as an important prophet. The Baha'i faith is too.

Abrahamic religions - Wikipedia
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
That's beautiful. It did something, though. Every time I went out, I'd crawl to the doorway trying not to blink my eyes. I get there and then I'm pulled back in a rush into my body. Another time I was looking at myself sleeping. I think some people have that so I don't know if that was a dream but that swoosh startled me awake. Another time was a dream but I woke up in the same position the dog attacked me. It was creepy. I stayed there for a good couple of minutes. One other time my whole body fell on the bed. It wasn't like you pick up part of your body and flop down.

Ever since then 'til probably mid twenties I tried "levitating" I think they call it. They have so many names to call it. Doctors figure the temporal lobe that controls memories and emotions may have something to do with that feeling or experience of being out of the body. Some people with seizures have de ja vus and others feel disassociated.

There is so much about the human psyche we do not understand. I found learning neurobiology when doing psychiatry of limited value. Its up to each of us to make sense of our experiences, but clearly when they interfere with day to day life medication to suppress at least some of it is appropriate. For whatever reason your thought processes are inclined to a different realm of experience than many others. The medical model labels it an illness, and prescribes treatment. Thats fine, but its only part of the story.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have been grappling with Hinduism and Vinayaka kindly sent me a video you assist. You're obviously doing reading too so all the best with that.

We had our Feast today. My wife and I are the only active Baha'is in town at the moment.

I see Hinduism as smorgasbord of wonder and within Hinduism, I also see in what I have read to date, the beauty of our journey enshrined. But now, I do find it lmpossible to not look for the Oneness of God within the writings, thus it is best I say little

It is the valley of wonderment no less;

"...At every moment he beholdeth a wondrous world, a new creation, and goeth from astonishment to astonishment, and is lost in awe at the works of the Lord of Oneness...."....."All these states are to be witnessed in the Valley of Wonderment, and the traveler at every moment seeketh for more, and is not wearied. Thus the Lord of the First and the Last in setting forth the grades of contemplation, and expressing wonderment hath said: “O Lord, increase my astonishment at Thee!”

I am sure you will find many a wonderful gem in the grappling you undertake. The world is full of Gems.

I will be around as I enjoy the conversations you have here.

Regards Tony
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Interesting.

We recognise a lineage of prophets whose descendants can be traced from Abraham. Baha'u'llah and Bab's lineage can be traced all the way back to Abraham.

I noticed the timeline isn't on Isaac, Ishmael, and Midian. I read that Midianites were in Arabia. Did Midian had a prophecy that Bahaullah is a prophet rather than just a descendent just as many christians and jews say you and I are are well?

Does being a descendant of the human race mean being part of a prophecy; if so, how?

We have the OT, NT, Quran, and Baha'i writings in that order. As the NT is an addition to the OT which builds upon Hebrew traditions, the Baha'i writings are the latest chapter in the book of Divine revelation Abrahamic style.

This is what I read Bible and Islam. All the other prophets are mentioned directly in the Bible. If Muhammad and Bahaullah were important (not by their names but by their actions) then why are they not in their bible? Jews and Christians say they are gentiles. If Bahallah and Muhammad are not gentiles, they aren't prophets since they aren't mentioned in the bible, then is there connection valid because of the title they believe god gave them-as Joseph Smith and other people who heard from god?

Islam is definitely Abrahamic with Quran suras based on OT stories and recognition of Jesus as an important prophet. The Baha'i faith is too.

From a Christian point of view, how are you different from them and the rest of the gentiles that aren't chosen people of god like the Israelites? I read something about Abraham's decedents were in Arabia. How does their location of travel make it different than other parts of the world they traveled?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
We had our Feast today. My wife and I are the only active Baha'is in town at the moment.

I see Hinduism as smorgasbord of wonder and within Hinduism, I also see in what I have read to date, the beauty of our journey enshrined. But now, I do find it lmpossible to not look for the Oneness of God within the writings, thus it is best I say little

It is the valley of wonderment no less;

"...At every moment he beholdeth a wondrous world, a new creation, and goeth from astonishment to astonishment, and is lost in awe at the works of the Lord of Oneness...."....."All these states are to be witnessed in the Valley of Wonderment, and the traveler at every moment seeketh for more, and is not wearied. Thus the Lord of the First and the Last in setting forth the grades of contemplation, and expressing wonderment hath said: “O Lord, increase my astonishment at Thee!”

I am sure you will find many a wonderful gem in the grappling you undertake. The world is full of Gems.

I will be around as I enjoy the conversations you have here.

Regards Tony

Outside of Maitreya coming back said by The Buddha not god, where in the suttas does it say that The Buddha was blessed by god, his name was changed or given meaning by god (as Muhammad, Bahaullah, and Abraham), and that he is a prophet or manifestation of god in order for his oral teachings to be a reflection of the Oneness of the creator of Abraham not say Hinduism?

Oh. @adrian009 I want to ask you this too.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
There is so much about the human psyche we do not understand. I found learning neurobiology when doing psychiatry of limited value. Its up to each of us to make sense of our experiences, but clearly when they interfere with day to day life medication to suppress at least some of it is appropriate. For whatever reason your thought processes are inclined to a different realm of experience than many others. The medical model labels it an illness, and prescribes treatment. Thats fine, but its only part of the story.

Which also gets me thinking that god-experiences are part of the psych to (at least said by The Buddha). If not by the psych, what is the experience a god believer experiences that are outside of one's senses, feeling of wholeness, holistic oneness, and clarity of mind (all psychological experiences among others)?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
One of the factors that is largely ignored in this discussion is language and in particular, the translations of various languages into English. Words like God, soul, great being, manifestation, etc. certainly look the same when they are translated into English. But are they really? If the translator didn't know the concept or understand the concept really well, from living another paradigm, he really doesn't have a lot of choice, but to use his mother tongue. It's not like I can translate stuff from here into Tagalog. So everyone here is stuck with English. Whether it is suitable or not doesn't seem to matter, but we're stuck with it, and for the most part, we just assume that it's accurate. If you only have one source, it seems likely that you'll believe that source. I question this, and beleive that often it is illusion, folly, and even if the word is the same, quite likely it actually isn't.

Rajiv Malhotra, a Hindu scholar of Hinduism, proficient in Sanskrit, and in English, makes this point often. Last I heard, he's working on a list of untranslatable words. (Sanskrit to English). In other words, he maintains that the same concepts don't exist in English, period.

My Sri Lankan friend brought me a wood apple one day. Naturally, I figured it was some sort of tropical apple. It wasn't. I couldn't have been more wrong. Yes, it had that English name. That's where the similarity ended. It tasted bitter, and had the consistency of about cork ... a tough chew. Perhaps when we speak of 'soul', or 'God', it's as far off as 'apple' is.

Persian, Arabic, Mandarin, Tamil ... any of the ancient tongues that had religious scripture ... just how much distort is there in the translations?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@adrian009
Persian, Arabic, Mandarin, Tamil ... any of the ancient tongues that had religious scripture ... just how much distort is there in the translations?

To continue that point Vinayaka made, when I studied interpreting and language, I realized you can't translate words from one language to another 100% so to depend on sacredness of a text rather than experience, in my opinion, would be off by replacing the experience to depend on what one reads.

For example, in American Sign Language you (not English on the hands) have this word:

eCF8J-eMRQxb--ZaBYhY4EeeYVs4-BgXNSlg0WeVWJcwfl26-RQtoPpbJaBNqG_jMMKqkg=s127


In British Sign Language, you have this word: BSL Dull

If not translated properly, it the English translation could be "I mowed the Dull today" or The history lecture was Grass."

They both look the same depending who is signing it and the fluentness and clarity of the sinner; but, the former means grass and the latter means dull/boring.

So, if you translated it back to ASL, you have to translate it in the cultural and linguistic context of the word because grass in the states have different meanings in themselves, if you think about it more. That other definition is cultural slang not an actual formal word.

Likewise in English and many other languages. Native Indian Languages so told is like ASL which is based on picture language. Vietnamese is based on sound and consonants not words and placement of words that change the meaning.

That would mean Lord Buddha, Jesus as Lord, Lord Krishna, and Lord King Henry may have the somewhat same definition of authority but the context based on who is the Lord makes the first one an honorary title, the second one god and the last one a title of position. (I can't speak for Krishna).

In the New Testament, Jesus is called the High Priest. I call the elders of the Church priests. The list goes on.

So, I would talk more of concept and meaning when discussing the bible rather than saying the bible prophesied Bahaullah based on his word and not on the context of biblical scripture, history, and the people.

hqdefault.jpg

The facial expression is accurate not exaggerated depending on how bored one is.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm curious, Which Hindu and Buddhist scriptures have you read?

As I have no access to references this morning, I have read Snippets here, snippets there over the last 33 years in search of the One God of a wide range of writings. I have read the Bible and Koran in full. I found those 2 books a challenge. Of the passages I have read from Buddhist, Zoroastrian and writings attributed to Hindu belief over the years, I seè a common theme clothed in very different garments.

But that is me.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Outside of Maitreya coming back said by The Buddha not god, where in the suttas does it say that The Buddha was blessed by god, his name was changed or given meaning by god (as Muhammad, Bahaullah, and Abraham), and that he is a prophet or manifestation of god in order for his oral teachings to be a reflection of the Oneness of the creator of Abraham not say Hinduism?

Oh. @adrian009 I want to ask you this too.

I have not looked for this specific question to date, I would be more than happy to explore further the sayings of Buddha to see if this may be mentioned.

If Adrian does not, I will research tonight when I have my references available.

Hope you are well and happy. Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If Muhammad and Bahaullah were important (not by their names but by their actions) then why are they not in their bible?

They are indeed in the Bible, this has been posted often above in this thread. I think it wise not to do this again...unless you wish to?

Persian, Arabic, Mandarin, Tamil ... any of the ancient tongues that had religious scripture ... just how much distort is there in the translations?

The Baha'i's I have met from Iran say there is a lot of undestanding missing from some words when translating both Persian and Arabic into english. So I assume other languages will have the same Issues.

The story posted above hinted at this barrier of language.

This is what Shoghi Effendi was a master at. It is now a great challenge for future translators to render the writings into English.

Regards Tony
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
They are indeed in the Bible, this has been posted often above in this thread. I think it wise not to do this again...unless you wish to?

It was mentioned by names. A lot of religious prophets, gods, and teachers have similar actions. That's not my point. I think Bahaullah's name was "Glory to God" so the correlation to that and a prophecy in the bible not mentioning Bahaullah's name was translated to mean Bahaullah came from the bible. It was an indirect relationship between an prophecy probably can be cleared up by a jew or christian and Bahaullah.

No one discussed it with me because you don't go deeper in christian scripture and Adrian knows more of the details where I can't keep up with.

I read the full bible, though. Go deeper.

What teaching is unique to Bahaullah in the bible that I can differentiate him as the prophet told by Isiah (?) than any other prophet say Jesus Christ?

Edit I'm talking to Adrian more about it in #12050 if you want to discuss it from a biblical perspective.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What teaching is unique to Bahaullah in the bible that I can differentiate him as the prophet told by Isiah (?) than any other prophet say Jesus Christ?

I will again do this later today, there are a few, but one that stands out is Micah 4:3

King James Bible "And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Baha'u'llah did this in his letters to the leaders of the world.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

If you read these, you will see Micah fulfilled.

Regards Tony
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I will again do this later today, there are a few, but one that stands out is Micah 4:3

King James Bible "And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Baha'u'llah did this in his letters to the leaders of the world.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

If you read these, you will see Micah fulfilled.

Regards Tony

Actually, I wont get too far until you see it from christian shoes. Christians dont see bahaullah as prophet but they feel jesus is the messiah of the jews. The jews dont feel jesus is the messiah because he didnt fulfil the prophecies..

So you need to try a different approach because when I read scriptures, from christian view Not my own, jesus Did fuflill the messiah propheciez. Then I read and heard the Jews point of vieq Not my own and they had a better argument. Muhammad seems to be hanging off the side because being a decendent doesnt make you a prophet.

But Id have to believe in god first to understand any of this. So, like Vinayaka, I do not understand prophets and procephies. We make prophecies all the time. Sometimes its a hit and others a miss. One persons truth is another persons falsehood.

Going by that while I get on my computer to read what bahaullah wrote, I will stick to the christian view because that is what I asked not bahaullah. I read scriptures and cant find anythi g unoque in all the quotes bahauallah did that no other prophet can do.

But you guys didnt discuss this with me. Tony, you always over jump my questions. Will you take the time to listen to what i have to say before I continue?
 
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