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False Prophets

MohammadPali

Active Member
History doesn't lie. For whatever reason, you rejected jesus peace be upon him. But you took simon bar kokhbah as a messiah, a man clearly not reasonable with god, but you took him as a messiah, and he failed. Instead of listening to jesus pbuh who had clear miracles.

Jesus did phenomenal things pbuh, but you made a mistake, you rejected him, and instead your ancestors believes in a man who was a tyrant against his own and thoroughly ridiculed and lost the essence of your religion.

Let me ask you a question. Did god ever destroy israel ?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Did moses pbuh marry an arab ? YES OR NO
Yes. First he married an African, later he married what would later be come to be called an Arab.

Did Abraham pbuh marry 2 arabs or 1 ? YES or NO
Judging from the fact that you seem to be conflating Arabs and Middle Easterners, yes, he married 2 Arabs. In fact, by that measure, Abraham himself and all of his children and childrens' children are all Arabs.

Maybe not 40 rabbis, maybe 70 elders are rabbis
Ok. Can I get a source for that?

and throughout history the oral testament is gone or lost .

Source?

Don't get mad at me that you need a book to understand another book for another book, to understand your own testaments. Its not a secret.

Mad? I boast about it all the time! We have commentators on the commentary written on commentaries. That's my pride!

I didn't lie and you know this, and of course its expected.

You didn't lie but you can't bring any source for your claims? I have bad news for you...

How many books you have now ? 5 ?

Personally, I open more than 500.
Did you mean how many Books are in the Tanach? There are 24. Did you mean how many total books there are in Judaism? I don't know over 70,000.

And how many debates in the talmud ?
I don't know how many debates there are, but definitely a lot.

You can find arguments about arugula or plants, to what kind of incense is made on the temple mount, its all in there. READ IT.
I study the Talmud every day. I'm quite aware. I just don't know what your point is...

The shieks I listen to disregard the teachings of judaism, its not even necessary to look into Judaism or Christianity. One religion is the religon of redemption, and the other is the religion of paul
Or do you mean to say

Everything I learned from Judaism is straight from the source, and everything I learned about Christianity is straight from judaism, and 1st centrury christian scholars.
Oh great. So if you learned it from the source, can you tell me what the source of that statement is? 70 rabbis revelation as great as Moses?
 

MohammadPali

Active Member
Yes. First he married an African, later he married what would later be come to be called an Arab.


Judging from the fact that you seem to be conflating Arabs and Middle Easterners, yes, he married 2 Arabs. In fact, by that measure, Abraham himself and all of his children and childrens' children are all Arabs.


Ok. Can I get a source for that?



Source?



Mad? I boast about it all the time! We have commentators on the commentary written on commentaries. That's my pride!



You didn't lie but you can't bring any source for your claims? I have bad news for you...



Personally, I open more than 500.
Did you mean how many Books are in the Tanach? There are 24. Did you mean how many total books there are in Judaism? I don't know over 70,000.


I don't know how many debates there are, but definitely a lot.


I study the Talmud every day. I'm quite aware. I just don't know what your point is...


Oh great. So if you learned it from the source, can you tell me what the source of that statement is? 70 rabbis revelation as great as Moses?


Read where it says Interpretations the oral tradition.

The Genesis One Code
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
History doesn't lie. For whatever reason, you rejected jesus peace be upon him. But you took simon bar kokhbah as a messiah, a man clearly not reasonable with god, but you took him as a messiah, and he failed. Instead of listening to jesus pbuh who had clear miracles.

Jesus did phenomenal things pbuh, but you made a mistake, you rejected him, and instead your ancestors believes in a man who was a tyrant against his own and thoroughly ridiculed and lost the essence of your religion.
Bar Kokhba made more progress in fulfilling Messianic prophecies than did Jesus. Jesus was just doing sihr.

And not everyone believed he was the Messiah. Rabbi Akiva was a famous Rabbi who believed he would be the Messiah. His peers told him that grass would be growing from his grave and the Messiah will still not have come. It was because Bar Kokhba started to believe he was better than G-d that people stopped believing he was the Messiah.

So now you know something else that your "Jewish source" told you that was wrong.

Let me ask you a question. Did god ever destroy israel ?
I assume you mean temporarily, since I am clearly here. Yes, He destroyed us many times just as Moses told us that He would. And since the prophecies about our destruction came true, we know that the prophecies of our redemption will also come true, because G-d's Mercy is greater than His strict judgment.
 

MohammadPali

Active Member
ALSO, listen, im not here to make fun of your religion. I like history, I like to talk, I like to learn, but when something is wrong, especially historically, I like to confront it.

I want to read the dead seas scrolls, I hope its translated one day, I want to see the differences, and there are differences. I want to know about what happened around or during 135AD, thats a very import date.


To me historically something happened, and its alot of it is blank. Something happened to judasim at that time, and christianity, or whoever was the original christians, or the people who follow the way of jesus.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Read where it says Interpretations the oral tradition.

The Genesis One Code
Yes. I've gone 10 pages in. I don't see anything about 70 Rabbis from Babylon having revelation as great as Moses.
The only mention of 70 is in the chain of transmission of the Torah: Moses passes the Torah to Joshua, Joshua passed it to the 70 Elders and the 70 Elders passed it to the Prophets.

Maybe you can copy and paste the exact words you wanted me to read about "talmudic debates or statements from babylon that says that some 40 rabbis received better revelation than moses." Because I can't seem to find it.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Not many people know this. This is why in islam we say we are closer to moses than the jews are.
How does that work? Moses wasn't the only (arguable) Hebrew running around and we don't hear much about his progeny afterwards, so who cares?

The bottom line is LINEAGE, she was an arab as well.
Why does lineage truly matter in anything other than inheritable medical conditions?

False. Killing serial killers does not prevent serial killers from existing.
It prevents the serial killer in question from doing so.

He loves all humans, there is no such thing as a god that prefers one kind of people over the other.
That's why Muslims are better?

God created 3 kinds of people, the believer, the unbeliever, and the hypocrite. The most people that go to the hell-fire is the hypocrite.
"He loves all humans, there is no such thing as a god that prefers one kind of people over the other." Signed, you?

The shieks I listen to disregard the teachings of judaism, its not even necessary to look into Judaism or Christianity. One religion is the religon of redemption, and the other is the religion of paul.
Insecure teachers aren't afraid of other people.

For whatever reason, you rejected jesus peace be upon him.
For the same reason you do per Christianity.

But you took simon bar kokhbah as a messiah, a man clearly not reasonable with god, but you took him as a messiah, and he failed.
Jesus was supposed to fix everything and behold, he failed so hard he said he'd have to come back to finish the job.

Instead of listening to jesus pbuh who had clear miracles.
Other people could do parlor tricks. So what? Do we believe them too? Jesus also complained that people who use miracles as proof are not thinking, but you seem to ignore that.

Let me ask you a question. Did god ever destroy israel ?
Didn't the Muslim empire stretch way farther than it does currently?
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
ALSO, listen, im not here to make fun of your religion. I like history, I like to talk, I like to learn, but when something is wrong, especially historically, I like to confront it.
Great, so I'll be here to fix any mistakes you make in what you think happened in history.

I want to read the dead seas scrolls, I hope its translated one day, I want to see the differences, and there are differences. I want to know about what happened around or during 135AD, thats a very import date.
I don't care.


To me historically something happened, and its alot of it is blank. Something happened to judasim at that time, and christianity, or whoever was the original christians, or the people who follow the way of jesus.
Maybe or maybe not.
 

MohammadPali

Active Member
Bar Kokhba made more progress in fulfilling Messianic prophecies than did Jesus. Jesus was just doing sihr.

And not everyone believed he was the Messiah. Rabbi Akiva was a famous Rabbi who believed he would be the Messiah. His peers told him that grass would be growing from his grave and the Messiah will still not have come. It was because Bar Kokhba started to believe he was better than G-d that people stopped believing he was the Messiah.

So now you know something else that your "Jewish source" told you that was wrong.


I assume you mean temporarily, since I am clearly here. Yes, He destroyed us many times just as Moses told us that He would. And since the prophecies about our destruction came true, we know that the prophecies of our redemption will also come true, because G-d's Mercy is greater than His strict judgment.


My jewish sources don't say I was wrong, main stream Judaism followed through with simon kokbah, what happened after was very very sad, and im sorry for that even though us arabs and muslims have nothing to do with that history. It was still very sad, we are very sad. And we were the ones who brought you back from babylon.

You do realize that there was treachery amongst the jews and they even slew each other just before the jewish revolt and the temple mount being destroyed. It was a set up, thats what I believe, it was an excuse to take the gold and silver trimmings on the temple. I don't believe your temple is where the dome of the rock was, since it was near the gihon spring.

I don't trust any famous rabbi or historian even Josephus flavious from that time because they did some shady things to each other, and to christians and the samaritans. There was deep animostory between jews and the Samaritans. The samaritans could possibly be the reason why there was no 3rd temple built.
 

MohammadPali

Active Member
Great, so I'll be here to fix any mistakes you make in what you think happened in history.

Excellent, we have alot in common, I can help correct you too, we muslims we also have a korbani type sacrifice, just like the jews did back in the day except we didn't dedicated it to Azazel. Nor do we compete with pagans on who can compete the most sacrifices in a day and give tribute to the Pharisaic and the levis and saddaqees.

You really believe jesus pbuh did sihr ? lol
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
My jewish sources don't say I was wrong, main stream Judaism followed through with simon kokbah,

Here you can read up about Bar Kokhba and see that your Jewish sources are wrong.

Simon bar Kokhba - Wikipedia

what happened after was very very sad, and im sorry for that even though us arabs and muslims have nothing to do with that history. It was still very sad, we are very sad. And we were the ones who brought you back from babylon.
Muslims did not bring Jews back from Babylon. There were Jews going back and forth from Israel to Babylon the entire time after the Second Temple was destroyed.


You do realize that there was treachery amongst the jews and they even slew each other just before the jewish revolt and the temple mount being destroyed.

Yes, we believe that that was the reason why the Second Temple was ultimately destroyed. We call it baseless hatred.

It was a set up, thats what I believe, it was an accuse to take the gold and silver trimmings on the temple.
I'm not sure what "it" you're referring to. The Romans were interested in breaking the Jews who were revolting against them at the time.

I don't believe your temple is where the dome of the rock was, since it was near the gihon spring.
Yes, we know of Ernest Martin's idea.

I don't trust any famous rabbi or historian even Josephus flavious from that time because they did some shady things to each other, and to christians and the samaritans. There was deep animostory between jews and the Samaritans. The samaritans could possibly be the reason why there was no 3rd temple built.
Ok...
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Excellent, we have alot in common, I can help correct you too, we muslims we also have a korbani type sacrifice, just like the jews did back in the day except we didn't dedicated it to Azazel. Nor do we compete with pagans on who can compete the most sacrifices in a day and give tribute to the Pharisaic and the levis and saddaqees.
Of course you have sacrifices. Your entire relgion was lifted off the Jews, the Christians (who lifted it off the Jew and Roman pagans) and the Pagan Arabs. There's going to be lots of similarities.

You really believe jesus pbuh did sihr ? lol
Of course he did.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Laws of Moses have nothing to do with this new song. Laws =/= song. Laws are commandments. A song is something you sing. Your refutation makes 0 sense.
Yet you still have no clue what this New Son was. It was going to be sung around the World and wasn't being sung when Isaiah pbuh was writing.

Kedar was not a brother of the Israelites. Kedar was a brother to the other "children of Ishmael". Jacob was not an Israelite, he was Israel. His children were "the children of Israel". Esau had three wives, one of whom was called Basmath and Maḥlath who was a daughter of Ishmael, a sister of Kedar.
Sorry but as shown they are all classed as brethren in the wider context of the word.

Those living under the covenant of circumcision were brothers to each other...

The first Muslims were descendants of Abraham's son, Ishmael pbut. The Second Century B.C. Book of Jubilees made clear they were under God's Covenant.

JUBILEES 17
Abraham made a great banquet for Yitschaq was weaned

1 And in the first year of the fifth week Yitschaq was weaned in this jubilee, [1982 A.M.] and Abraham made a great banquet in the third month, on the day his son Yitschaq was weaned.
2 And Ishmael, the son of Hagar, the Egyptian, was before the face of Abraham, his father, in his place, and Abraham rejoiced and blessed YAHWEH because he had seen his sons and had not died childless.
3 And he remembered the words which He had spoken to him on the day on which Lot had parted from him, and he rejoiced because YAHWEH had given him seed upon the earth to inherit the earth, and he blessed with all his mouth the Creator of all things.
4 And Sarah saw Ishmael playing and dancing, and Abraham rejoicing with great joy, and she became jealous of Ishmael and said to Abraham, 'Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman will not be heir with my son, Yitschaq.'
5 And the thing was grievous in Abraham's sight, because of his maidservant and because of his son, that he should drive them from him.
6 And YAHWEH said to Abraham 'Let it not be grievous in your sight, because of the child and because of the bondwoman; in all that Sarah has said to you, listen to her words and do them; for in Yitschaq shall your name and seed be called.
7 But as for the son of this bondwoman I will make him a great nation, because he is of your seed.'

JUBILEES 20
Abraham called all his sons and commanded them to observe the way of YAHWEH
1 And in the forty-second jubilee, in the first year of the seventh week, Abraham called Ishmael, [2052 (2045?) A.M.] 2 and his twelve sons, and Yitschaq and his two sons, and the six sons of Keturah, and their sons.
2 And he commanded them that they should observe the way of YAHWEH; that they should work righteousness, and love each his neighbour, and act on this manner amongst all men; that they should each so walk with regard to them as to do just judgment and righteousness on the earth.
3 That they should circumcise their sons, according to the covenant which He had made with them, and not deviate to the right hand or the left of all the paths which YAHWEH had commanded us; and that we should keep ourselves from all fornication and uncleanness, and renounce from amongst us all fornication and uncleanness.

11 And he gave to Ishmael and to his sons, and to the sons of Keturah, gifts, and sent them away from Yitschaq his son, and he gave everything to Yitschaq his son.
12 And Ishmael and his sons, and the sons of Keturah and their sons, went together and dwelt from Paran to the entering in of Babylon in all the land which is towards the East facing the desert.
13 And these mingled with each other, and their name was called Arabs, and Ishmaelites.

They also mingled with their cousins the Israelites, so in antiquity were considered by Abraham pbuh to be brethren. Deut 18:18

https://www.yahwehsword.org/yahwehswordarchives/book_of_jubilees/book-jubilees-download.pd

It switches back and forth between referring to the nation as a collective and the plural. Verse 15 is in the singular, verse 18 is in the plural.
I've shown it wasn't Joshua pbuh, so still waiting for you to answer who this person, or persons as you prefer were, and remember they were to be 'like' Moses pbuh.

So, what nation were Sulaiman, Yunis, Isa, Yahya and what status did they have according to Islam?
They were believers who submitted their will to God or in Arabic, Muslims. The Qur'an doesn't say what tribe they were from or mention their heritage.
.
Those verse are obviously saying that it was requested that the entire nation not be directly spoken to by G-d. Not that individuals shouldn't be able to.
Presumably the nation not wanting to be addressed directly included all those individuals, or did being addressed together make it more scary? Standing alone with no one's hand to hold was doable, but safety in numbers went out of the window...

:/

Ezra wrote G-d's Book because...that's what scribes do. He gathered the nation together because they had just spent 70 years in exile and had forgotten many things that they needed to know.
Produce a Torah from the time of Moses pbuh and let's compare.


Why would you assume that the prophet has to be like Moses in a way that is not like Joshua? Joshua was not a prophet at the time this passage was said.
The verse says 'like' Moses pbuh, clearly he was unlike other Prophets, and on studying his life we know he did some things that others Jewish Prophets haven't...

Took his family out of slavery, banished idolatry, introduced monotheism, became head of State, defeated the enemies of God, brought commandments from God.

34:10 shows no prophet rose like him, and ancient commentaries show never again in Israel did a Prophet like Moses pbuh appear.

Thar is written about the statement "who knew G-d face to face".

There was a half of a millennium in which God sent NO prophet at all to Israel, fulfilling the prophecy of Hosea: "The children of Israel shall abide many days without king, and without prince, and without sacrifice, and without pillar, and without ephod or teraphim" (Hosea 3:4).

Also, Micah prophesied of this same thing: "Then shall they cry unto Jehovah and he will not answer them; yea, he will hide his face from them ... concerning the prophets ... it shall be night unto you, and ye shall have no vision; and the sun shall go down upon the prophets, and the day shall be black over them" (Micah 4-6). This dreadful condition of Israel's having no prophetic word lasted for about five hundred years.

My question to you is, where are all the succession of prophets you mentioned??

No we don't.
Yes we do. The Dead Sea Scrolls talk about 2 Messiahs to come and 'that' Prophet, Deut 18:18. Plenty of books have been written on the subject, one being, Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman

We also have to accept the New Testament is a Historical record of Jewish life in the First Century, and there are quotes from Jews asking John the Baptist pbuh if he was 'that' prophet, to which he replied, No.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yes and how was that prophecy fulfilled? Gen. 25:18 says that Ishamel died on the face of his brothers...right after it described the region where the children of Keturah lived. In other words, the children of Keturah are called Ishmael's brothers.
And as far as the Father of the Abrahamic faiths is concerned, those obeying GOD and living under the Covenant are brothers to each other.

Those are very nice points except you haven't dealt with my argument. The same phrases that G-d uses to describe from whom He will choose a king from the Jews he uses for whom he will choose a prophet. Of the three times that G-d chose kings for the Jews all three of them were from the Jewish people.
I did, kings and prophets are different matters. I would consider Joshua pbuh a King of sorts, but was he 'like' Moses pbuh in prophethood? No, deut 34:10

Not only that, but the directive to choosing a king comes with a prohibition to not take a king from a foreign people. According to the instances of "brother" you've given here, there are no people foreign to the Jewish people because every single nation in the area can trace relatives to the Jewish people. It's not logical to say that there would be a command allowing and excluding every other nation.
Foreign >>> Not under the covenant.

But the answer is easy:
(1) From Abraham's nephew Lot being called his brother, we see that the nephews of all twelve sons of Israel were all considered brothers to the sons.
(2) The Jews are called Moses' brothers in Exodus and that's as we would expect.
(3) A member of the same tribe would be brothers and that is as we would expect as well.
(4) Allied nations are called "brother" in a metaphorical sense and not a literal sense as a way of expressing closeness.
(5) Irrelevant.
(6) People of moral likeness are called "brother" in the metaphorical sense.
(7) Friends are called "brother" in the metaphorical sense. Although I'm not convinced that verse is talking about his friends.
(8) See (4) and (7)
(9) Irrelevant
(10) See (6)

So what we have are two basic ways the word "brother" is used: for close family and in the metaphorical sense for people who are not really brothers but share some form of kinship.
Metaphorical or not, there's no way without modern DNA testing they could have told who was a brethren or not. Those who kept the covenant were accepted, but to be a King, you would likely have to come from a certain linage as mentioned previously. For example, the Levite Tribe of Israel would more often than not only marry within their tribe in a attempt to preserve their identity.

So we know that Ishmael and his line are not close relatives to the children of Israel. They branch off from their grandfather Isaac, so that by the time we get to the children of Israel, Ishmael's grandchildren are second-cousins to the children of Jacob. There is no precedent for second-cousins being called "brothers", nor were the two nations allies.
Except when they fought the invading Kings and the Ishmaelites melted their golden Jewellery to celebrate....

Zebah and Zalmunna, were 2 kings from Median who invaded Israel.
The men of Israel, both Israelites and Ishmaelites under Gideon fought, captured and subsequently killed them. Gideon said, GOD would rule over them, rather than a King and all the men should give gold. The Ishmaelites gave gold nose rings

Ishmaelites were also referred to as Midianites, so more passages can be found related to intermarriage.

Study guides make clear what Brethren means:
Brethren: denotes any blood-relation or kinsman (Genesis 14:16; 1 Samuel 20:29; 2 Kings 10:13; 1 Chronicles 23:2, etc.)
Strong's Greek: 80. ἀδελφός (adelphos) -- a brother

If you could tell that it was sihr, then that would defeat the purpose, no?
Pharaohs Court considered Moses pbuh to be practitioner of Sihr when he came to them. What people think is irrelevant, when we know the power behind the signs is Almighty GOD.
 

MohammadPali

Active Member
Of course you have sacrifices. Your entire relgion was lifted off the Jews, the Christians (who lifted it off the Jew and Roman pagans) and the Pagan Arabs. There's going to be lots of similarities.


Of course he did.


We have similarities and thats it, we didn't steal constant temple sacrifices like judaism stole from the temple of moloch. The rabbis today confirm back in the days of the temple, the Judaic people at the time needed to have some sort of competition or ritual to feel some sort of sakina. A temple was for worship, not for throwing things into the fire. This is all innovation wasn't prescribed because it led to more innovation.

Now you got 5 jewish books and 1 big book to help you translate all these commandments and fulfillment and understand the debates. Look at this innovation. This is why we call it a forgery.

At the kaaba, people gated through god with idols, such as habal, uzzah(which jews believe is some sort of angel and may have interbreed with humans)

You have alot of practices with idolatry. Even the transfer to sins to goats and animals, who would of thought of that ? I can touch a goats head and say my sin is now being transferred to this animal here, and im going to throw it right into this big blazing alter. This is not what abraham taught. This is all innovation.

Jesus pbuh was against all this. Everyone knew the sacrifices are not a way to get closer to god, Its deeds.
 
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MohammadPali

Active Member
Only in judaism, does it say that god needs a seat at some alter where they sacrifice animals and have to spread the blood around the alter and burn animals and food and transfer of sin. Does god need a seat on earth ? He is closer to you than your jugular, why would he need a seat ?

And you can't deny the despicable acts of the Pharisees, because in Ezekiel it talks all about it. Try to deny it, god leveled you, destroyed because you rejected his criteria, his messengers and prophets.
 
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Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Of course you have sacrifices. Your entire relgion was lifted off the Jews, the Christians (who lifted it off the Jew and Roman pagans) and the Pagan Arabs. There's going to be lots of similarities.
Please don't be silly, Abraham pbuh was not a Jew.

GOD made a covenant with the 12 Tribes of Israel, but they turned their back on him several times. To think you can throw dirt in the face of the King of Kings and remain forever His chosen people is to be arrogant beyond belief.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
This thread has not helped my opinion of Muslims one bit. I mean seriously. Fools are being made.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Please don't be silly, Abraham pbuh was not a Jew.
That's been long debated, but totally irrelevant here.

GOD made a covenant with the 12 Tribes of Israel, but they turned their back on him several times. To think you can throw dirt in the face of the King of Kings and remain forever His chosen people is to be arrogant beyond belief.
To think that G-d would not know the future such that He would change His mind is foolish beyond belief.
 
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