Are people who claim to know God liars?

[Willamena]

So if I have an idea about God, what authority do I actually possess?

I suppose I have the authority to tell you about my beliefs but that doesn't really give me any authority over your beliefs does it?

No, but neither should it. Nor could it.

This is not really a problem IMO. It's when folks decide they have the authority to tell you what your beliefs ought to be.

I don't really care if folks believe in dragon Gods. It's when they tell me with the implied conviction that I ought to accept it as truth that God is a dragon.

Okay.

 

[PureX]

Don't you think we need to be unbiased as possible when we go about claiming what is true?

I think it's far more important that we understand that we are not unbiased. That what we already believe to be real and true IS A BIAS. And is almost certainly an inaccurate bias, given that we are constantly having to struggle to change and correct it over time. Our greatest fault as humans is that we cannot distinguish between what we believe is real and true, from what is actually real or true. Because we have so little actual experience or knowledge of what is real and true. All human history is an ongoing struggle to overcome our ignorance and bias because ignorance and bias is our natural state.

In Engineering I will cite my conclusions and provide all the evidence that conclusion is drawn from which is presented to a 3rd party which has no vested interest in the conclusion being right or wrong. And this remains available for anyone questioning the claims so they needn't rely on my opinion but are free to question the conclusion as they see fit.

But all any of you arrive at, or even seek, is a solution that "works". Just because something works doesn't mean we understand how or why it works, or that it's a "truth". All it means is that it works the way we expect it to, to the degree that we expect it to.

In mathematics we say that 2 + 2 = 4. But in truth no anythings are absolutely equal to anything else, or they would be the SAME THING. So the most fundamental ideal in mathematics, equality, only exists as a bias in our minds. It cannot logically exist in reality. Yet mathematics 'works' for us because we simply ignore all the ways that it doesn't. Two of these plus two of those "equals" four of them because we just ignore all the ways in which the things we are applying the mathematical equation to are not equal. Thus 2 + 2 = 4 'works', but there is no truth in it beyond that. It's a ignorance, and a bias that, when maintained, remains functional from our perspective.

I understand what you're saying, what I do goes well beyond personal validation. While I understand this is not 100% foolproof, I believe this level of validation is necessary for something to be claimed as true.

Knowing without this it is much easier to fool ourselves and others into believing something is true.

All truth from a human perspective is gained by fooling ourselves into believing that we know what it is. And once we have successfully fooled ourselves into believing this, we become closed to the idea of an alternative. We become biased by our own presumed "truths".

 

[Muffled]

My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.

I believe I have a personal relationship to God so that makes you the liar or simply delusional.

I don't believe they are in a better position but certainly they are in an equal position.

I believe you can think anything but mostly it is imagination on your part and the evidence is to the contrary.

 

[Muffled]

My experiences during meditation helped tremendously to dissolve my remaining need for god concepts entirely.

I believe there are five possible outcomes from meditation. 1. You get in touch with your own spirit which has its own experiences and knowledge 2. You get in touch with God who has all the experiences and knowledge 3. You get in touch with a demon who might pretend to be helpful but will harm you in the end 4. You get in touch with spirits of dead people who have not moved on 5. Your mind convinces you that you have had a spiritual experience but the mind completely generated it.

 

[Muffled]

I voted "They are self deluded".

They no more have knowledge of god's existence than a mentally ill person in the psyche ward has knowledge of the existence pertaining to the voice in his head.

I believe you are deluded because you believe your imaginings are facts.

 

[Nakosis]

I believe I have a personal relationship to God so that makes you the liar or simply delusional.

I don't believe they are in a better position but certainly they are in an equal position.

I believe you can think anything but mostly it is imagination on your part and the evidence is to the contrary.

I had a personal relationship with God too. Lots of folks do. They just don't all seem to be having a relationship with the same God.

So the question is, when other folks make a claim about God which opposes something you claim about God, does it make them liars?

 

[Nakosis]

I think it's far more important that we understand that we are not unbiased. That what we already believe to be real and true IS A BIAS. And is almost certainly an inaccurate bias, given that we are constantly having to struggle to change and correct it over time. Our greatest fault as humans is that we cannot distinguish between what we believe is real and true, from what is actually real or true. Because we have so little actual experience or knowledge of what is real and true. All human history is an ongoing struggle to overcome our ignorance and bias because ignorance and bias is our natural state.
But all any of you arrive at, or even seek, is a solution that "works". Just because something works doesn't mean we understand how or why it works, or that it's a "truth". All it means is that it works the way we expect it to, to the degree that we expect it to.

In mathematics we say that 2 + 2 = 4. But in truth no anythings are absolutely equal to anything else, or they would be the SAME THING. So the most fundamental ideal in mathematics, equality, only exists as a bias in our minds. It cannot logically exist in reality. Yet mathematics 'works' for us because we simply ignore all the ways that it doesn't. Two of these plus two of those "equals" four of them because we just ignore all the ways in which the things we are applying the mathematical equation to are not equal. Thus 2 + 2 = 4 'works', but there is no truth in it beyond that. It's a ignorance, and a bias that, when maintained, remains functional from our perspective.
All truth from a human perspective is gained by fooling ourselves into believing that we know what it is. And once we have successfully fooled ourselves into believing this, we become closed to the idea of an alternative. We become biased by our own presumed "truths".

I've made myself pretty much all of the same arguments. Doesn't really change the fact that we still have to deal with our perception of reality such as it is.

Some folks may not put a lot of stock into repeatable results but I can do a lot with that. It's pretty much what the world runs by.

Philosophically, sure there are no absolutes, but we can't just pretend reality is something else, well I suppose you can but it doesn't lead to any real success.

Whereas if I want to accomplish something, things that have been shown to work repeatedly have always been more reliable in accomplishing that goal.

 

[Nakosis]

I believe you are deluded because you believe your imaginings are facts.

Jews and Muslims don't agree with the Christian view of God. Are they deluded or liars?

 

[YmirGF]

I believe there are five possible outcomes from meditation. 1. You get in touch with your own spirit which has its own experiences and knowledge 2. You get in touch with God who has all the experiences and knowledge 3. You get in touch with a demon who might pretend to be helpful but will harm you in the end 4. You get in touch with spirits of dead people who have not moved on 5. Your mind convinces you that you have had a spiritual experience but the mind completely generated it.

And in my 40 years I've experienced everything but #3. So far, I have had no evidence, whatsoever, of anything remotely approaching a demonic entity.

 

[Kenny]

My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.

Is an equally valid question be "how do you know that people don't have a knowledge of God"?

In a Christian perspective, (if it is from God), isn't the book available to all to know something about God? It doesn't put anyone in a better position since anyone can read it.

 

[Nakosis]

Is an equally valid question be "how do you know that people don't have a knowledge of God"?

In a Christian perspective, (if it is from God), isn't the book available to all to know something about God? It doesn't put anyone in a better position since anyone can read it.

Yes but I've often heard it requires the guidance of the Holy Spirit to enable one to properly understand the Bible.

How do you feel about this?

 

[PureX]

I've made myself pretty much all of the same arguments. Doesn't really change the fact that we still have to deal with our perception of reality such as it is.

I do agree with this. We are what we are, limited and biased as that may be. But such self-awareness and skepticism is essential if we hope to keep from succumbing to our own delusions.

Some folks may not put a lot of stock into repeatable results but I can do a lot with that. It's pretty much what the world runs by.

That functionality, and honesty, are really about all we have to go with. With a bit of intuition thrown in.

Philosophically, sure there are no absolutes, but we can't just pretend reality is something else, well I suppose you can but it doesn't lead to any real success.

Whereas if I want to accomplish something, things that have been shown to work repeatedly have always been more reliable in accomplishing that goal.

That all depends on the kinds of thing you want to accomplish.

 

[Nakosis]

That all depends on the kinds of thing you want to accomplish.

Well that's true. However in general, if I wanted to convince folks of anything, scientific studies certainly help in my experience.

 

[Jumi]

Since my original complaint was about folks claiming knowledge about God, it looks like we are in agreement.

Yes, we are almost wholly agreed on most of that part, but I wouldn't say they are lying even though I don't think they are right.

 

[Nakosis]

Yes, we are almost wholly agreed on most of that part, but I wouldn't say they are lying even though I don't think they are right.

I wouldn't either really. It just kind of fascinates me, other people's certainty about God. So if someone is certain themselves about God, how do they deal with folks equally certain but holding different views of God.

I just came to the point for myself of questioning what that certainty was really based on.

 

[PureX]

Well that's true. However in general, if I wanted to convince folks of anything, scientific studies certainly help in my experience.

They are, of course, useless, however, when it comes to questions related to "God". Or when it comes to questions related to existential values. Or when it comes to questions of why existence, exists. Or why we exist.

 

[Nakosis]

They are, of course, useless, however, when it comes to questions related to "God". Or when it comes to questions related to existential values. Or when it comes to questions of why existence, exists. Or why we exist.

Maybe there is no why, just how.

I can create answers for both. The how, I expect science will be able to at some point validate.

The why? If there isn't some way to validate that, does what we believe about the why even matter?

 

[Kenny]

Yes but I've often heard it requires the guidance of the Holy Spirit to enable one to properly understand the Bible.

How do you feel about this?

Not an issue for me in as much as the Holy Spirit does want everyone to know truth and He is there to help us to discern whether the teacher is spewing religion or sharing truth:

John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.

He isn't trying to withhold truth, He is trying to get us to know truth.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I believe I have a personal relationship to God so that makes you the liar or simply delusional.

I don't believe they are in a better position but certainly they are in an equal position.

I believe you can think anything but mostly it is imagination on your part and the evidence is to the contrary.

I believe there are five possible outcomes from meditation. 1. You get in touch with your own spirit which has its own experiences and knowledge 2. You get in touch with God who has all the experiences and knowledge 3. You get in touch with a demon who might pretend to be helpful but will harm you in the end 4. You get in touch with spirits of dead people who have not moved on 5. Your mind convinces you that you have had a spiritual experience but the mind completely generated it.

I believe you are deluded because you believe your imaginings are facts.

I confess, I am quite flabbergasted that you seem entirely unable to see that your last statement of these 3 demonstrate completely that it should be directed at yourself first.

You repeat, over and over again, "I believe..." this and that...and wind up accepting that because you believe all of those things, they must be facts. How is it, do you suppose, that your imaginings are automatically factual, while others remain entirely in the realm of imagination? Are you very, very special in some way we ought to know about?

 

[RedDragon94]

Or misinforms it as the case maybe. Or do you see all religious as equally valid?

Some more than others.

Science is just a tool to validate what we think we have discovered. Through validation of our discoveries we can make better choices as to how to better pursue our goals.

Every pursuit is either selfish or a service to others.

If you're wanting to accomplish something, doesn't it make sense to be as certain as possible of how reality works?

Are you certain that you're gonna make it through tomorrow?