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Why do Christians follow the old testament?

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Because there is no virgin birth prophecy; the messiah is not supposed to be a god; he isn't supposed to live a perfect life and not supposed to rise from the dead either. I challenge you to find me any of these in the Tanach.

I don't need the Tanach to know Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of the living God, sir. Perhaps you do but I do not. The testimonies of the Apostles are proof enough for me.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Paul was perhaps the greatest of the Apostles. Unfortunately, most of the Jews will not hear him.
Clearly, his studies, his learning, his knowledge and logic was put to good use by Christ. In that he excelled beyond any of the 12 which was why he was given an eye ailment so as to humble him.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't need the Tanach to know Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of the living God, sir. Perhaps you do but I do not. The testimonies of the Apostles are proof enough for me.
There are prophecies that tell us what the messiah is supposed to do and who he is supposed to be. You can't decide that Jesus is the messiah because of things he did independently of the prophecies, because none of these things make him the messiah. It's a cop-out to say 'He'll come back and fulfil the prophecies' that he never did the first time. The whole concept of a messiah is a Jewish concept; you can't therefore claim that X is the messiah whilst completely ignoring all the Jewish messianic prophecies.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
There are prophecies which tell us what the messiah is supposed to do and who he is supposed to be. You can't decide that Jesus is the messiah because of things he did independently of the prophecies, because none of these things make him the messiah. It's a cop-out to say 'He'll come back and fulfil the prophecies' that he never did the first time. The whole concept of a messiah is a Jewish concept; you can't therefore claim that X is the messiah whilst completely ignoring all the Jewish messianic prophecies.

Well, He claimed it, Matthew testified of it and so did all the other Apostles, who were Jews. I believe them and not you.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, He claimed it, Matthew testified of it and so did all the other Apostles, who were Jews. I believe them and not you.
Anyone can claim to be the messiah and anyone can be a 'witness'. Your messiah read from the Tanach and tried to use it to prove himself, so you should at least follow his example.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 1

22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Anyone can claim to be the messiah and anyone can be a 'witness'. Your messiah read from the Tanach and tried to use it to prove himself, so you should at least follow his example.

I am trying to avoid an argument with you that you can't win. I know of the prophecies that clearly point to Christ as Messiah, you deny them. Why go on about it?
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
I am trying to avoid an argument with you that you can't win. I know of the prophecies that clearly point to Christ as Messiah, you deny them. Why go on about it?
I can't win? That's funny.

Trust me, Rival knows what she's doing.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
I can't win? That's funny.

Trust me, Rival knows what she's doing.

Trust me, Rival might have been deceived by the devil, but I have not been.

Romans 11
7What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,

eyes that could not see

and ears that could not hear,

to this very day.”c

9And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,

a stumbling block and a retribution for them.

10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,

and their backs be bent forever.”d

Ingrafted Branches

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The scriptures say that Israel will be saved. God will never forget His people.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Trust me, Rival might have been deceived by the devil, but I have not been.

Romans 11
7What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,

eyes that could not see

and ears that could not hear,

to this very day.”c

9And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,

a stumbling block and a retribution for them.

10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,

and their backs be bent forever.”d

Ingrafted Branches

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The scriptures say that Israel will be saved. God will never forget His people.
Your Paul means nothing to me.
 

Elliott

Member
Well, like I said earlier, they use Tanach to try to prove their messiah. And their testament doesn't really make much sense standalone; they need the background.
i guess one might say that this is why they only adopted the written teachings and not the oral.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, I know. Neither does Christ or any of the other Apostles. That's why your ancestors brought them to the Romans to be killed, the Jews have rejected them. Which is what Paul said.
The Jewish people are not my ancestors (as far as I know). The Romans put Jesus to death for insurgency.
 
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Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
i guess one might say that this is why they only adopted the written teachings and not the oral.
Talmud is an anathema to Christians because it tears apart all their beloved interpretations.
 

Elliott

Member
First, in the entire study, the subject becomes a bit complex, a few who call themselves Christian claim that we still are under the Mosaic law, and many atheists do also, though it concerns them not. The thing is that Christians are very clearly told that the Mosaic law if kept by Christians voids Christ! And, that is a problem for those who take this standpoint.

I don't think I can give you the full reasons in just a few lines, but I can give you enough so that you can ask more if you find you have some questions after this.

Rom 4:14, For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath. (KJV)
Romans 8:3, For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh (KJV)​

Let me take it one step at a time. (Mosaic Law, aka. Law)
From the beginning, the point was the crushing of satan and the redemption of mankind through our Lord, Christ, the Messiah
Gen 3: 15. . .I will put enmity between thee (satan) and the woman (the means of providing Messiah), and between thy seed (satan's forces) and her seed (primarily Messiah): he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.​
Tutor to Christ
To demonstrate to mankind how truly desperate we are, God promised Israel that those who obeyed the Law to the letter would not die (they would live until eternity if obedient), but any disobedience of the law would cause death to those under the law. All died because none could obey perfectly.
Romans 10:5, "For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them." (Leviticus 18:5) (KJV)
Gal 3: 11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them.​
Since all died, none survived, it was obvious that Works according to Law kills since none can obey perfectly. That meant that something better was needed, a law based on faith.​

This was the purpose of the law - namely to clearly show us that we cannot in any way earn our salvation by works.
The Law was for the nation of Israel, not for anyone else outside Israel.

The Law of Faith
Aka. the law of Christ, and, the New Covenant:
The Old Mosaic Law Covenant - promised life to the obedient, all died. In this the Law was shown to be deficient as far as redemption was concerned. It also was specifically for the nation of Israel, not for others.​
Example:
As a good businessman grows older, he gains more wealth. When young, his last will and testament reflects his status, his family, etc. As he grows older, he makes new testaments to update his status of properties, wealth, and revised family status, death and births. What is no longer applicable, sold and new things bought, etc. becomes deleted from the new testaments, and what is still valid from before is kept as it is.​

The New Covenant, the Law of Faith did away with the old Law of Moses. Does this mean that all the laws of the old Law became invalidated. No. It means that the laws that didn't apply any longer were erased and the ones that still applied were inserted into the New Law, New Covenant, the Law of Faith.
Thus the laws about the priesthood, the temple, the temple animal sacrifices and much more were no longer needed and therefore deleted. Also the strong statement that non obedience, sin, automatically brought a death sentence was no longer true.
By Christ we then have a law in which faith is at work, not works of law. When we sin by mistake, we can be forgiven if baptized as Christian. The Old Law killed without mercy.
Colossians 2:13-14, And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. (KJV)​

There is much more to say, but to answer your question finally briefly. The old law was replaced because it was death dealing without mercy. The New Covenant that is entered by baptism contains forgiveness by faith. This is conditional by the way, an entire different subject. Thus in the New Covenant, eternal life may be obtained by the faithful.

Any questions?

If mosaic law was so merciless then why would G-D give it to the jews to begin with?
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
If mosaic law was so merciless then why would G-D give it to the jews to begin with?
As Paul taught us, it was given as a tutor to Christ.
Gal 3:. 24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor.​
As I stated, the whole study is large and usually takes a person a long time to understand the details, a long time.

In the Law (Mosaic Law) we have all kinds of symbols and images pointing to Christ and what this entails. As far as Israel is concerned it began nearly before they became a nation, just before the Exodus. There the Passover, during which Israel was given a means to avoid the angel of death and the Egyptians weren't, demonstrated the Passover Lamb, signifying Christ already there. Thus, in this, Israel had to demonstrate faith by putting the blood of the lamb on their doorposts.

They were given the earthly tabernacle and later temple/s with its priesthood and its sacrifices, the lamp-stand, the showbread, etc. - that each and every one symbolized things pointing to Christ and all these things (the unleavened bread =the body of Christ, and so forth).

There could be no real salvation through human works of law. This was one major reason for the law - to demonstrate this. So, the perfection of the Law became a curse to Israel. This told them that a better law was coming, one based on faith.
Jer 31: 31 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:​
This new covenant Jeremiah speaks of with Israel is not the nation Israel but is Spiritual Israel, as Paul teaches us:
Romans 9:6:But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
Romans 2 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.​

This is where many today become confused, thinking the nation of Israel is Israel. It isn't. The Bible speaks now of Israel, spiritual, according to the promise, not the flesh.

 

Elliott

Member
Are you trying to bait me? Why do you ask me this? All of the Apostles testified to the risen Christ, but not of them actually saw Him rise.
I was just asking a question, not baiting. i only ask because the entire jewish nation witnessed the revelation at Mt. Sinai. If i were to accept that jesus was resurrected i could still tell you that there were others who too were resurrected, people who did sin.
 
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