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Consciousness

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What is the basis of my claims? The universe, what's yours?

I'm going to make an assumption since you are Hindu. You might believe that everyone reincarnates and the life you get is either a reward for living a previous good life or it's a punishment for living a previous bad life. This is very typical of how humans perceive the universe. They get it part right and part wrong.

Reincarnation does happen but the reward is NOT reincarnating and moving on to a universal training school and eventually making it to heaven. Being sent back to live another life is not punishment, you are not sent to be an "untouchable" because of the way you lived a previous life. This makes no sense since you don't remember the previous life anyway. You're not even going to be sent to the same planet you lived on previously.

These cases where someone thinks they remember a past life are not reincarnation, there is crossover in the soul of two lives and the soul is experiencing both of them in the exact same moment BUT the lives can be in completely different times.
How exactly does "the universe" constitute the basis of your claim?

I do not care about your theories until you tell me how you justify them.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Argument: Consciousness is not solely an effect of the brain.



When the brain is altered or damaged, a different consciousness results.

When the brain is considered to be inactive, or dead--- consciousness is either:

a) decaying/removed with the brain's cells (as evident with time, disease, damage, etc.),

b) it is being retained to some degree, through transferal (e.g. consciousness is being transferred with social interaction, even now),

c) or some combination.




Argument 2: Consciousness is simply a description of energy transferal.
If that was the case I would think would be able to track it by now to some degree.

I see consciousness as an emergent property brought about by biological systems. Basically smaller organisms working as a larger one with a mysterious yet amazing way of communication. I think that, as being an educated guess because that's how our bodies communicate. It is through a network of nerves and neurons.

I think there have been a few studies on the human brain and it seems very unlikely it is sort of a receiver or transmitter of any kind. We produce brain waves, but I don't think it's consciousness. It might be a field of some sort, sort of like electricity produces a magnetic field in a circuit. We already know magnetism produces various effects on the mind, so it's probably not a very good receiver/ transmitter if interference can be discerned enough that it affects behaviors.

Besides even if the argument is that consciousness travels, it would need some kind of medium to preserve it and so far there is nothing of the sort giving way to a whole bunch of fanciful ideas and conjectures.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Christian doctrine for most is that there is no such thing as reincarnation. Some try to find evidence for it in the Bible or assert it was removed from scripture, but that is routinely dismissed.

Right.

I would say the biblical case for reincarnation is strong, however.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
"When the brain is altered or damaged, a different consciousness results."

This certainly suggests that consciousness IS a product of the brain.

Please explain what b) is supposed to mean. How exactly is 'consciousness being transferred' with social interaction?

Everyone got a little OP ammo.

If you're reading this, I'm currently transferring consciousness to you. Your eyeballs are receiving physical stimuli. Your brain is retaining and managing what it is able, and your consciousness is affected as a result.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
If that was the case I would think would be able to track it by now to some degree.

I see consciousness as an emergent property brought about by biological systems. Basically smaller organisms working as a larger one with a mysterious yet amazing way of communication. I think that, as being an educated guess because that's how our bodies communicate. It is through a network of nerves and neurons.

I think there have been a few studies on the human brain and it seems very unlikely it is sort of a receiver or transmitter of any kind. We produce brain waves, but I don't think it's consciousness. It might be a field of some sort, sort of like electricity produces a magnetic field in a circuit. We already know magnetism produces various effects on the mind, so it's probably not a very good receiver/ transmitter if interference can be discerned enough that it affects behaviors.

Besides even if the argument is that consciousness travels, it would need some kind of medium to preserve it and so far there is nothing of the sort giving way to a whole bunch of fanciful ideas and conjectures.

Is your brain not transmitting an idea? In response to an idea you received, from another brain transmitting that idea?

Everything scientists have laid eyes on shows responsiveness to some stimuli. Consciousness is fundamental. We subconsciously know this, because we trust crime scene investigators, and coroners. Their job is to interview witnesses, as well. The crime scene retains information and transmits that information. The condition of the body retains information and transmits it.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
How exactly does "the universe" constitute the basis of your claim?

I do not care about your theories until you tell me how you justify them.

How exactly does the universe constitute the basis of my claim? Watch it and learn and get rid of your preconcieved ideas that make you better than the untouchables.

You don't care about my theories until I justify them? There is no justification that will suit you.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
How exactly does the universe constitute the basis of my claim? Watch it and learn and get rid of your preconcieved ideas that make you better than the untouchables.

You don't care about my theories until I justify them? There is no justification that will suit you.
Got it, you don't have any justification to present and just huffing and puffing here.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
The notion that the brain is a "biological receiver/transmitter" seems to me more fanciful than true because it appears to be non-falsifiable.

Hello Sunstone,

I think it is a matter of perspective and the varying perspectives flourish because of awareness itself. With given awareness, we invent stories and imagine it to have been created by some unknown mechanism. How much fanciful that can be?

There's something touchingly human about our species' efforts to convince ourselves that some part of us survives death. The lengths we go to! It's as if there is no flight of fancy so improbable that we will not cling to it if it gives us even a shred of hope for an afterlife.

To me the most touching irony is that there are perceptions that individuals are true, apart from the awareness that reveals them.

In the end, the matter is at best quite obviously uncertain. And yet, we passionately convince ourselves we have proof of living beyond death.

I agree. I prefer the positive practical implications of the knowledge that "I Am" is not separate from the awareness of "I am", the most important being the knowledge that mind is positively controllable.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Got it, you don't have any justification to present and just huffing and puffing here.

5 years of college, been to 14 different countries, most of them 4-6 times.

How about you?

Here's what you really want to hear, you're better than the untouchables. Feel good now?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
5 years of college, been to 14 different countries, most of them 4-6 times.

How about you?
And this justifies your theory about rebirth... how?? Did you take a rebirth theory or practice course in college and went to international reincarnation conferences in those 14 countries? o_O
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
And this justifies your theory about rebirth... how?? Did you take a rebirth theory or practice course in college and went to international reincarnation conferences in those 14 countries? o_O

The 5 years of college and 14 countries gave me experience in understanding people.

The hindu's took a fantastic belief system, with Chakra's and reincarnation, but then you added in a belief that others are punished by God just so you can feel superior to them.

No reincarnation course needed to figure you out.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
If you change the channel on a television set it changes the picture and sound. So, therefore, the television set has all of the pictures and sounds for every station already inside it.

Except of course for the fact that this isn't how a television works. If a channel stops transmitting, the 'pictures and sounds' from that channel aren't already inside of the TV.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The 5 years of college and 14 countries gave me experience in understanding people.

The hindu's took a fantastic belief system, with Chakra's and reincarnation, but then you added in a belief that others are punished by God just so you can feel superior to them.

No reincarnation course needed to figure you out.

How does "understanding people" help justify your theory of reincarnation? Millions of folk go to college and travel abroad. What is different about how you did it?

You should really stop trying to figure me out. You are embarrassing yourself.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
I wish it were that easy, to idealism the brain being altered or damaged just means you broke your spiritual transceiver, as if their memories are in the cloud. However, as you probably know, there is no evidence what so ever that the brain has such a robust system with cloud backups. I would chalk that up wih the wishful thinking category.


Actually the fact that a person can suffer damage to their brain, lose access to certain memories, and then over time retrieve those memories certainly DOES suggest that the brain has a sort of backup system. Until you can provide evidence of a consciousness existing WITHOUT a brain, you're the one who's indulging in 'wishful thinking' when you describe the brain as a 'spiritual transceiver'.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Everyone got a little OP ammo.

If you're reading this, I'm currently transferring consciousness to you. Your eyeballs are receiving physical stimuli. Your brain is retaining and managing what it is able, and your consciousness is affected as a result.

No, you are NOT transferring consciousness to me. What you are doing is transmitting stimuli to my consciousness, which already exists. It does affect how my conscious mind reacts, but it is NOT a transfer of consciousness. When my conscious mind detects a bird swooping down out of the sky towards me and causes me to duck, the bird has NOT transferred consciousness to me, it simply provided stimuli for my conscious brain to react to.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Until you can provide evidence of a consciousness existing WITHOUT a brain, you're the one who's indulging in 'wishful thinking' when you describe the brain as a 'spiritual transceiver'.
Right that's what I said, which was the part that I started "as you probably know".
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Actually the fact that a person can suffer damage to their brain, lose access to certain memories, and then over time retrieve those memories certainly DOES suggest that the brain has a sort of backup system.
I agree, that is compelling, but the problem is due to the nature of consiousness, people forever hide in what we don't know about it which I don't think is very honest. The evidence we have for brain based awareness I consider overwhelming.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Is your brain not transmitting an idea? In response to an idea you received, from another brain transmitting that idea?

Everything scientists have laid eyes on shows responsiveness to some stimuli. Consciousness is fundamental. We subconsciously know this, because we trust crime scene investigators, and coroners. Their job is to interview witnesses, as well. The crime scene retains information and transmits that information. The condition of the body retains information and transmits it.
I don't think relaying information is the same thing as transmission. If you were to take two people in two separate rooms that are soundproof and windowless, transmission would be impossible.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
No, you are NOT transferring consciousness to me. What you are doing is transmitting stimuli to my consciousness, which already exists. It does affect how my conscious mind reacts, but it is NOT a transfer of consciousness. When my conscious mind detects a bird swooping down out of the sky towards me and causes me to duck, the bird has NOT transferred consciousness to me, it simply provided stimuli for my conscious brain to react to.

The purpose of stimuli is a reaction.

To say that consciousness is not being transferred, ignores that fact, and also ignores the source of said stimuli.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
It appears that this thread would be of better service in the jokes section.
The purpose of stimuli is a reaction.

To say that consciousness is not being transferred, ignores that fact, and also ignores the source of said stimuli.
So, when are you leaving to go pickup your Nobel Prize? It must be hectic with the phone ringing endlessly, the camera crews at the door, etc. How do you cope with it?
 
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