Consciousness

[SalixIncendium]

Personal experience tells me that consciousness does exist beyond the brain and the body and survives the death of the body...

As I spent the final day with my daughter, she slept most of the day but hours before her body died, she fell into terminal restlessness. She was mostly lucid throughout the episode, which by my estimate lasted a couple of hours (looking at the clock wasn't really a priority at the time). Toward the end of the episode, as I sat before her, she looked past me over my shoulder, staring into the corner of the room behind me, appearing to be amazed and filled with joy and said, "It's so beautiful." These were the final words she spoke, and minutes later, her consciousness left her body, and her body over the next several hours shut down.

Throughout the nearly two years of her illness, we had discussed the possibility of her death, and she told me that if she did die before me, she would do her best to share what she experienced during the process and would attempt to contact me afterward. While I have not had any contact with her since she passed (others claim to have; perhaps I'm just not ready), I am confident that she did see where her consciousness was headed as her body died and did her best to share this with me as her consciousness left her body.

This experience has had a significant impact on how I view consciousness (even though I used other terms at the time such as 'life energy', 'prana', 'spirit', etc.).

 

[Nous]

Personal experience tells me that consciousness does exist beyond the brain and the body and survives the death of the body...

As I spent the final day with my daughter, she slept most of the day but hours before her body died, she fell into terminal restlessness. She was mostly lucid throughout the episode, which by my estimate lasted a couple of hours (looking at the clock wasn't really a priority at the time). Toward the end of the episode, as I sat before her, she looked past me over my shoulder, staring into the corner of the room behind me, appearing to be amazed and filled with joy and said, "It's so beautiful." These were the final words she spoke, and minutes later, her consciousness left her body, and her body over the next several hours shut down.

Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I realize it's an event filled with sadness and pain.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I realize it's an event filled with sadness and pain.

Yeah, not gonna lie. I'm working on drying up the water works here. That pulled a bit more emotion out of me than I anticipated.

 

[Nous]

Yeah, not gonna lie. I'm working on drying up the water works here. That pulled a bit more emotion out of me than I anticipated.

Yeah, I can only imagine.

But, you know, it nice to hear that it's so beautiful.

 

[Super Universe]

First, you accuse me of being a know it all, then you profess you yourself know almost everything.

You have no need to improve on your stand-up comedy material. You've perfected it.

I did not accuse you of being a know it all. I know you don't "know it all".

I also did not profess to know almost everything. You're purposely over exaggerating what I wrote.

But I know more than you do, and, I probably know more than you will ever know.

 

[SalixIncendium]

But I know more than you do, and, I probably know more than you will ever know.

 

[sun rise]

Interesting and informative. Until recently I've always dismissed the cases of past-life memories. That was easy to do because I didn't think that reincarnation or remembering someone else's life made much sense. I had read a little by and about Stevenson and his cases. But it didn't impress me. I wasn't sure that he used the most rigorous method.

But recently I came across some of the work of UV Professor of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences Jim Tucker. There are 2 recent and astounding cases he has investigated that have grabbed my attention. One is the fairly well-known case of James Leininger. https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual...ucker-James-LeiningerPIIS1550830716000331.pdf

There is actually only way to account for the statements attributed to James such as in Table 1. One cannot account for these reported statements of James by alleging that his parents did something inexplicable and seeming immoral by spending years somehow researching this obscure WWII pilot and his death, the name of the ship he was on, the model of the plane he flew, how Corsairs bounced when landing resulting in flat tires, and a number of other facts, and spent years feeding James this information so that he would eventually repeat it. That isn't a possible explanation because “James had made all of the documented statements by the time he was four years old, so he could not have read about them. Regardless, no published materials about James Huston are known to exist. No television programs focusing on Natoma Bay or James Huston appear to have been made either.”

The only explanation that accounts for the facts is that his parents did not engage in a years-long fraud, and that James actually made those statements that clearly depict the life and fiery death of WWII pilot James Huston.

That's a good paper. One thing I would note is that they considered what appear to me to be all the possible explanations.

 

[Super Universe]

Interesting and informative. Until recently I've always dismissed the cases of past-life memories. That was easy to do because I didn't think that reincarnation or remembering someone else's life made much sense. I had read a little by and about Stevenson and his cases. But it didn't impress me. I wasn't sure that he used the most rigorous method.

But recently I came across some of the work of UV Professor of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences Jim Tucker. There are 2 recent and astounding cases he has investigated that have grabbed my attention. One is the fairly well-known case of James Leininger. https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual...ucker-James-LeiningerPIIS1550830716000331.pdf

There is actually only way to account for the statements attributed to James such as in Table 1. One cannot account for these reported statements of James by alleging that his parents did something inexplicable and seeming immoral by spending years somehow researching this obscure WWII pilot and his death, the name of the ship he was on, the model of the plane he flew, how Corsairs bounced when landing resulting in flat tires, and a number of other facts, and spent years feeding James this information so that he would eventually repeat it. That isn't a possible explanation because “James had made all of the documented statements by the time he was four years old, so he could not have read about them. Regardless, no published materials about James Huston are known to exist. No television programs focusing on Natoma Bay or James Huston appear to have been made either.”

The only explanation that accounts for the facts is that his parents did not engage in a years-long fraud, and that James actually made those statements that clearly depict the life and fiery death of WWII pilot James Huston.

The child is not someone who has reincarnated from a past life. The child has his own unique personality. What is happening is that heaven is non-space/time. All of the past, the present, and all of the future is the exact same moment in heaven. Souls exist in heaven and connect with sentient beings in space/time in order to gain experience. They don't just connect with one, they connect with around 1,000 across all time, past, our present, and future.

Sometimes there is a bleed over of one personality to another. The child is not remembering a past life, he's experiencing it as if he is actually there.

 

[Sunstone]

I did not accuse you of being a know it all. I know you don't "know it all".

I also did not profess to know almost everything. You're purposely over exaggerating what I wrote.

But I know more than you do, and, I probably know more than you will ever know.

No doubt you do indeed know more than me about somethings, for the older I get, the less I am certain I know many things, and also the less I try to bull**** people about what I know or don't know.

 

[Nous]

That's a good paper. One thing I would note is that they considered what appear to me to be all the possible explanations.

Yes, Dr. Tucker confronts the issue of possible fraud head-on. I'm certain he does that because he realizes that in the US and Western culture generally it's easy to be skeptical and dismissive of claims of reincarnation or past-life memories--belief in reincarnation is not much in the air around here. And, in fact, he notes in the paper that James Leininger's parents identify as Protestant. My impression is that in at least some Protestant denominations, the idea of reincarnation is somewhat sacrilegious. As far as I know, no Protestant denomination actively promotes reincarnation.

 

[Nous]

The child is not someone who has reincarnated from a past life. The child has his own unique personality. What is happening is that heaven is non-space/time. All of the past, the present, and all of the future is the exact same moment in heaven. Souls exist in heaven and connect with sentient beings in space/time in order to gain experience. They don't just connect with one, they connect with around 1,000 across all time, past, our present, and future.

Sometimes there is a bleed over of one personality to another. The child is not remembering a past life, he's experiencing it as if he is actually there.

I won't argue. With the terms I used ("reincarnation or remembering someone else's life"), I was trying to be noncomittal about what sort of phenomenon it might suggest.

 

[sun rise]

Yes, Dr. Tucker confronts the issue of possible fraud head-on. I'm certain he does that because he realizes that in the US and Western culture generally it's easy to be skeptical and dismissive of claims of reincarnation or past-life memories--belief in reincarnation is not much in the air around here. And, in fact, he notes in the paper that James Leininger's parents identify as Protestant. My impression is that in at least some Protestant denominations, the idea of reincarnation is somewhat sacrilegious. As far as I know, no Protestant denomination actively promotes reincarnation.

Christian doctrine for most is that there is no such thing as reincarnation. Some try to find evidence for it in the Bible or assert it was removed from scripture, but that is routinely dismissed.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Argument: Consciousness is not solely an effect of the brain.



When the brain is altered or damaged, a different consciousness results.

When the brain is considered to be inactive, or dead--- consciousness is either:

a) decaying/removed with the brain's cells (as evident with time, disease, damage, etc.),

b) it is being retained to some degree, through transferal (e.g. consciousness is being transferred with social interaction, even now),

c) or some combination.




Argument 2: Consciousness is simply a description of energy transferal.

"When the brain is altered or damaged, a different consciousness results."

This certainly suggests that consciousness IS a product of the brain.

Please explain what b) is supposed to mean. How exactly is 'consciousness being transferred' with social interaction?

 

[Super Universe]

"When the brain is altered or damaged, a different consciousness results."

This certainly suggests that consciousness IS a product of the brain.

Please explain what b) is supposed to mean. How exactly is 'consciousness being transferred' with social interaction?

If you change the channel on a television set it changes the picture and sound. So, therefore, the television set has all of the pictures and sounds for every station already inside it.

 

[sayak83]

The child is not someone who has reincarnated from a past life. The child has his own unique personality. What is happening is that heaven is non-space/time. All of the past, the present, and all of the future is the exact same moment in heaven. Souls exist in heaven and connect with sentient beings in space/time in order to gain experience. They don't just connect with one, they connect with around 1,000 across all time, past, our present, and future.

Sometimes there is a bleed over of one personality to another. The child is not remembering a past life, he's experiencing it as if he is actually there.

You are speculating here.

 

[idav]

"When the brain is altered or damaged, a different consciousness results."

This certainly suggests that consciousness IS a product of the brain.

Please explain what b) is supposed to mean. How exactly is 'consciousness being transferred' with social interaction?

I wish it were that easy, to idealism the brain being altered or damaged just means you broke your spiritual transceiver, as if their memories are in the cloud. However, as you probably know, there is no evidence what so ever that the brain has such a robust system with cloud backups. I would chalk that up wih the wishful thinking category.

 

[Super Universe]

You are speculating here.

Are you saying that because of all the places you've been in the universe and all the universe training schools you've completed?

Or, are you saying that because if it's true then that means that your beliefs are incorrect. BINGO! We have a winner!

 

[sayak83]

Are you saying that because of all the places you've been in the universe and all the universe training schools you've completed?

Or, are you saying that because if it's true then that means that your beliefs are incorrect. BINGO! We have a winner!

What is the basis of your claims about the specific process by which this rebirth/reincarnation happens?

 

[Grandliseur]

Consciousness is not solely an effect of the brain.

I am too ignorant to claim anything here.

What I do see is that roaches, insect, all have an awareness of the external world, internal world, and the mental world of that organism. It is not something inherent to humans only. Thus, in a sense if an organism is aware of food externally to itself, and can reach out for it, whether is is down to cellular or multi-cellular organisms, they are conscious - within the limits of their awareness.

Serious damage to an organism that influences its external, and or internal, mental awareness would cause a natural shift in its interaction with the world since its awareness has been changed.

You could say that consciousness in this sense of awareness, of mental likes dislikes, mental qualities and personality - is the spirit of that being, it is not a physical attribute, but a spiritual attribute.
--------
Due to a scientific discovery of an individual some years ago, I do not even think it is located internally, though it belongs to a specific organism by right of existence and life.

 

[Super Universe]

What is the basis of your claims about the specific process by which this rebirth/reincarnation happens?

What is the basis of my claims? The universe, what's yours?

I'm going to make an assumption since you are Hindu. You might believe that everyone reincarnates and the life you get is either a reward for living a previous good life or it's a punishment for living a previous bad life. This is very typical of how humans perceive the universe. They get it part right and part wrong.

Reincarnation does happen but the reward is NOT reincarnating and moving on to a universal training school and eventually making it to heaven. Being sent back to live another life is not punishment, you are not sent to be an "untouchable" because of the way you lived a previous life. This makes no sense since you don't remember the previous life anyway. You're not even going to be sent to the same planet you lived on previously.

These cases where someone thinks they remember a past life are not reincarnation, there is crossover in the soul of two lives and the soul is experiencing both of them in the exact same moment BUT the lives can be in completely different times.