How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

The implication makes Judaism and Christianity as being based on lies... on, not only misinterpreted books, but corrupted books.

Not at all. It only implies and rightfully so that over time their trees have withered and are unable to produce fruit for later ages. Their teachings were only meant for ther age. Even the Bible and Quran speak of the end of their age when the Lord will reappear.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This isn't saying that Jews changed Ishmael to Isaac during the time of Muhammad are they? Because aren't there plenty of texts that go back further than that and all of them have Isaac and not Ishmael?

Yes there are texts that go back further saying it was Isaac and there are also texts in Buddhism that make no mention of God. Original Texts can be also be lost which is what we are told with regards to Buddhism, that Buddhists do not possess Buddha's original Teachings.

The original reference to Ismael may have been lost also.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Which by no means means that they have been corrupted. One man's opinion doesn't mean that much. It does to Baha'i's, yes.

If These Manifestations were just ordinary men then why have Their Teachings had such a great effect on history even to the present day thousands of years after Their passing?

Why do the billions of people on earth take such delight in Their Teachings? Why not you or I?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Again ,,, hundreds of thousands of people believe that stuff, with no Baha'i' influence at all. The idea of non-violence, etc. has been in Hindu scriptures and teachings long long before Baha'u'llah. Give some credit where credit is due. It's one thing to claim infallibility but another to claim uniqueness of message. I knew all that stuff for 50 years before I ever heard of your prophet.

We are not talking just about non violence here but about the establishment of a world Civilisation, a world commonwealth, a world language, a world tribunal, collective security, establishment of a world parliament. Things like this are unique in as much as they haven't happened yet so how many people in the 1800's or before would have been bold enough to come out with world teachings at a time when world communications and technology had not come about which is a must have prerequisite to world unity?

How could you have any of these world teachings if there were not the scientific means to implement them? How would Baha'u'llah have known in His time that the internet, world plane travel and world communications would come about?

He would have been taking an aweful risk if He said these things and they hadn't eventuated. Why didn't Christ or Muhammad mention world unity? The world is amalgamating financially and politically and steps are ongoing with religious unity.

A world metropolis, a world language. These things are definitely unique and we are headed in that direction. Just like the American Civil War resulted in the United States of America, we are told that the current confusion and conflict between east and west will eventually bring about the unity of the world. Then slowly world brotherhood and world citizenship where the world will be one country with all humanity its citizens. These teachings are unique and our future. There's nowhere else to go from nationalism except world unity.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The manifestations don't sound human if they are infallible. The Buddha and Muhammad never claimed they are anything but human. Krishna isn't human anymore. Zoroaster was a prophet so far I researched. Moses is a human and so is Christ.

Infallible makes them god.

They were all human. However God who is infallible spoke through them all and so their words were the infallible words of Gods. That did not make these men Gods or infallible beings, rather their words that came from God.

This is actually quite important to understanding the statement Jesus made that have led Christian them to believe He was God.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think he's saying that the Jews and the Romans knew where the tomb was, and it was empty. Christians say he rose from the dead. What do you say? That someone took the body from the original tomb and buried it somewhere else?

I don't know what happened to the body of Christ, just as I don't know the whereabouts of everyone who died 2,000 years ago. But I do know that Jeus died physically and His remains are on earth somewhere. I know He didn't rise from the dead and ascend into the stratosphere. That may have been plausible in a bygone era but its a belief that has lost its credibility now.

 

[Vinayaka]

Education has been hugely important in alleviating poverty in the West, and religious organisations have contributed significantly, although I don't deny there hasn't been significant abuse too. How important is education in Hinduism?

Certainly it's all complicated. In any impoverished society, education is seen as a way out, so yes, it's really important there. Whether that is due to Hindu beliefs or to poverty I suppose is up for debate. Certainly imperialism is responsible in many ways for poverty in third world countries. When resources are looted over long periods of time, that's the result.

Christianity population is much higher in certain areas than in others. Some states have tougher laws. Often the point isn't that people become Christian, but that their own religion is undermined. As Father Brown said, "Not Christians, but not good Hindus either."

But I too have no doubt Hinduism will survive, not worried about that, just hoping that the entire se;fish attitude of 'my way is better than your way' is diminished.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus... All manifestations? What did any of them write? If most or all of it was their followers, than none of it is infallible.

If the followers recalled accurately their Teacher's words and passed them down through oral traditions then it gives some validity to their message. Its not a perfect method of retaining the stories and teachings as you can imagine.

Its not helpful to be black and white. Eg 'The gospels are either literal or they are not.' or 'The sacred texts are either perfectly recorded or they are completely wrong.' I think there are plenty of shades of grey.

 

[Vinayaka]

I ran children's classes in my locality for about 5 years and had an open communication with all parents about what was being taught. All parents were free to drop in at any time, contribute to the education, and even avail themselves of the opportunity to train to become teachers of classes. We taught the virtues such as truthfulness, courtesy, compassion that are common to all the religions. The curriculum provided positive education about Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Muhammad, and Jesus giving an outline of their life story and teachings. We also taught specifically about the Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Abdu'l-Baha usually with stories that emphasised themes and values that were universal. There were games, songs, drawing, and memorisation of Holy Writings.

Those kinds of things, and their sneakiness, depends on the individual. Some individuals would downplay the Baha'i' stuff to the non-Baha'i' parents. Of course if anyone signs their kid up for anything, they take the responsibility for their child being taught the concepts herein. Not really fair to complain after the fact, unless there was no full disclosure. Such things like, 'We will teach that of all these manifestations, Baha'u'llah was the greatest." should be right there at the outset.

 

[Vinayaka]

If These Manifestations were just ordinary men then why have Their Teachings had such a great effect on history even to the present day thousands of years after Their passing?

Why do the billions of people on earth take such delight in Their Teachings? Why not you or I?

Yes, this is the Baha'i' belief.

It's just history, and 'luck of the draw'. Nothing special. Lots of other people have had huge effects. Of course some of these effects have been horrible, leading to wars. If these guys would have been wiser, violence would have been totally abolished.

 

[Vinayaka]

We are not talking just about non violence here but about the establishment of a world Civilisation, a world commonwealth, a world language, a world tribunal, collective security, establishment of a world parliament. .

Yes, these are the Baha'i' beliefs. There are only two possible ways it can happen. One is to convert everyone to Baha'i' which doesn't seem likely, and the other would be to kill all the non-Baha'i' which actually seems more likely than the first option.

It would end diversity, eliminate many religions entirely, we'd lose many languages, cultures, and much more. A horrible grey scenario, I'm afraid.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't know what happened to the body of Christ, just as I don't know the whereabouts of everyone who died 2,000 years ago. But I do know that Jeus died physically and His remains are on earth somewhere. I know He didn't rise from the dead and ascend into the stratosphere. That may have been plausible in a bygone era but its a belief that has lost its credibility now.

There are pilgrim notes on this, I find it of interest;

"....Concerning the location of the burial site of Jesus' sacred remains, a letter dated 22 March 1982 written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer states:

Pilgrims have recorded in their notes oral statements made by 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi to the effect that the disciples hid the body of Christ by burying it under the wall of Jerusalem, and that it is now under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. The House of Justice knows of nothing in the Writings of the Faith, however, explicitly confirming these statements."

Resurrection and Return of Jesus

Hope all is well, Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

You mentioned an alternative way of looking at it. I don't see it a symbolic nor superman; so, I don't know another way to look at it really.

You had mentioned your experience of the resurrection through traditions in the Catholic Faith and I'm Good with that. My experience of the resurrection is not dependant on a church but through relationships with God and people.

Buddhism isn't a god-faith. Hinduism is. The Buddha rebuted Brahma when Brahma incarnated as Matta (sorry, this is a deja vu with Tony) to challenge The Buddha. He mentioned that all things are stable and eternal. The Buddha said it was not. The Buddha won. So it wasn't "taking anything" but rebutting Hindu doctrine.

Thank you. I do appreciate the differences between the two faiths as they stand in relationship to God. Buddha came from a Hindu background. It would be interesting to explore to what extent he agreed with the Faith of Hinduism from where he grew up.

Don't know about Christianity and Islam. Christianity and Judaism have ill feelings about each other though. I can respect Islam view on Christ. I can't with Christian's view on Muhammad.

The clearest example would probably be the Christians having a different understanding of the Hebrew Bible to the Jews, in particular how Jesus is viewed as a fulfilment of prophecy. The Jews will deny there is any verses that support Jesus being the Messiah whereas the Christians will see about two or three hundred verses that they believe relates specifically to Jesus as the Christ. I know you don't agree with it, but Chrisitanity would never have emerged as a religion if the apostles had not taught this. They taught it because it was the truth.

Like you, I am more comfortable with the view of Muslims towards Christians than the view of Christiinas towards Muslims.

Shrugs. I wouldn't say that you have a relationship with books. Books are a pretty huge asset in your faith. I know the @InvestigateTruth and @Tony Bristow-Stagg said only Bahaullah could speak clearly about their faith and they didn't have the right words to speak of it. Is that your view?

A while ago you and @Vinayaka told me you didn't like how much the Baha'is were quoting so I pretty much stopped. The point you made was that we really need to have a conversation and the quotes were getting in the way. I don't talk to my friends in Baha'i quotes so I've adapted.

Why would he need to if the Words are eternal throughout time?

Laws around crime and punishment, fasting and prayers are examples of transient teachings compared to the Eternal. The Jews believe their Covenat with God is Eternal and will not change. Thats one reason amongst many the Jews disagree with the Christians...and the Baha'is too.

edit-just caught something
The beautiful chariots of kings wear out--> Protectors of the suttas
This body too undergoes decay.--> Written suttas

But the Dhamma of the good does not decay (what the suttas are about):--> Teachings (suffering, eightfold path, etc)

So the good proclaim along with the good.” --> Good (of the Dhamma) always support each other.

Samyutta Nikaya (5131)

It's like Word versus words. Many christians (many christians) actually can't tell the difference.

Crude analogy/comparison.

Word/Dhamma

words/suttas

Great. That's what I was getting at as this principle applies to to a certain extent to the Abrahamic Faiths too. The words of Noah and Abraham have largely disappeared for example.

That isn't what the religious belief. I go off of the spiritual view. If I went off of literal, then I'd agree with you about the superman resurrection thing. Religious scholars do not speak for religious Jews. But then, instead of conversing about it, like with Hindu, I'd probably confer with a Jew first before saying anything is permanent and fact.

All the Abrahamic Faiths have very able and capable scholars that defend their positions very well. I was referring to Jewish Scholars and what they would say about the original tablets that Moses brought down from Mount Sinai. They don't have them.

Shrugs. Christ is the body of people. If I didn't put my trust in the people, I wouldn't put my trust in christ. Christianity is service to the people through the body of christ. Not worshiping christ as in the human being. The body comes together to build the body (different limbs scripture for example) and when they do, they make christ-the body-present and thereby, they are in union with god.

I'm kinda disheartened you feel that way. Many people are solo christians. If going by scripture, not something I agree with. Experiencing it as well? Naw.... never will see the solo christian view.

I wasn't referring to the Catholic Church but rather the history of the Jewish peopple as recorded in the OT. That being said, my experience as Christian from a Protestant background is different than yours as a Catholic.

Charmeleon of colors?

Haha. I just see it's logical. It would be the same if I'm talking about the engineering of a car even though I'm not an engineer nor do I drive cars. Or a Jewish scholar who is a Christian.

Just because it's spiritual doesn't mean it can't make sense to me.

If I didn't go through the Church and read the bible, I wouldn't be having this conversation. Belief in god doesn't negate my understanding of him. That, and god exist when you see it psychologically and culturally. You can make sense of it. When you expect me to see it supernaturally, can't do that.

I can see how you draw from your Catholic experience. A relationship with God is a living thing in my day to day life so although we are in different places I appreciate your experiences both religious and cultural that you bring to these discussions that is so enriching.

 

[Dawnofhope]

There are pilgrim notes on this, I find it of interest;

"....Concerning the location of the burial site of Jesus' sacred remains, a letter dated 22 March 1982 written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer states:

Pilgrims have recorded in their notes oral statements made by 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi to the effect that the disciples hid the body of Christ by burying it under the wall of Jerusalem, and that it is now under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. The House of Justice knows of nothing in the Writings of the Faith, however, explicitly confirming these statements."

Resurrection and Return of Jesus

Hope all is well, Regards Tony

Thank you Tony for sharing the relevant passages.

@CG Didymus and I have discussed may of the points raised in that letter at length in another thread I set up to explore the the resurrection.

Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thank you Tony for sharing the relevant passages.

@CG Didymus and I have discussed may of the points raised in that letter at length in another thread I set up to explore the the resurrection.

Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?

Thank you. At a glance it has been informative.

Regards Tony

 

[DavidFirth]

Grave, not body, and other "special" places, however several people claiming to be the Jewish Messiah, and rabble-rousing, were killed by the Romans.

So he could have been another. Two of the names of his disciples link to guerrilla fighters trying to throw off the Roman yoke.

*

You and I don't see eye to eye on nearly everything. I prefer to leave it at that rather than argue with you endlessly about things both you and I aren't going to change our minds about.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thank you. At a glance it has been informative.

Regards Tony

Michael Sours covers the resurrection really well as well as a number of other Christian topics such as the Divinity of Christ, Salvation, and the Exclusive claims of Jesus. He has a trilogy of books that I found excellent.

https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Biblical-Evidence-v-1/dp/1851680187/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_c

You seem very acquainted with various the nuances on this topic

 

[Unveiled Artist]

They were all human. However God who is infallible spoke through them all and so their words were the infallible words of Gods. That did not make these men Gods or infallible beings, rather their words that came from God.

This is actually quite important to understanding the statement Jesus made that have led Christian them to believe He was God.

The only people I can see logically (whether I'm religious or not or just a kid) is Muhammad and Christ and probably Zoroaster. I know you think it's correct because it's your religion, but from the other person's perspective (since it's not about you ) can you see how that is wrong?

Krishna being human speaking for "himself" and The Buddha speaking for god of abraham?

I mean, it's not like debating if christ is god or not. I understand both sides and they make logical since. But these two things above is like looking up at the sun and you're telling me it's the moon.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Wait. I noticed you skipped my question. I'm not going to let you get away with it this time.

I am more than happy if you choose the Fish.

After all we are at peace having the meal of life.

Regards Tony

Come on now. Every meal I pick you'll eat???

I mean, I learn from you best if you have your own meals. My friend said she knew everything about a person by how they ate their food. That would be weird if she ate like me, have the same plate as me, etc. What can she learn from me if she is, well, me?

Do you think we'll have peace if you have meat and I have fish?

 

[Vinayaka]

Krishna being human speaking for "himself" and The Buddha speaking for god of abraham?

I really don't think Baha'u'llah or later Baha'i's could have possibly taken a hard look at dharmic faiths, including Jainism, Buddhism, and Hinduism. If they would have, then they'd have seen the huge shift in paradigms. In many ways the transition from dharmic to Abrahamic that they call 'progressive' I personally would call 'regressive'.