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Jehovah's Witnesses' problems with the Catholic Church

Olinda

Member
Just for the record......

History is still telling the story.
There were Catholic, Protestant and JW martyrs, and that is tragic. There were also religious leaders who made mistakes and worsened the situation for their fellow believers. JW leadership was no exception.

A letter to the German Chancellor from JW leadership in Brooklyn included the phrase
"that the Bible Researchers of Germany are fighting for the very same high ethical goals and ideals which also the national government of the German Reich proclaimed "

Subsequently
"Rutherford and Knorr organized a public convention in Berlin on 25th June, 1933 to release a "Declaration of Facts," being pronouncing at the German convention, and distributed in letter format. This outlined Watchtower's support of the German governments stance against Jews.

The convention hall was decked with swastikas and the program was opened with Song 64, a song from the Bible Student's songbook that had the some melody by Hayden as the German national anthem. Konrad Franke, Germany's Bethel branch overseer later stated his disturbance at seeing the scene for the convention and Rutherford's declaration."

As efforts at appeasement had no positive effect, Rutherford later threatened Hitler with punishment if the ban against Jws was not lifted, and published aggressive cartoons and condemnations against the regime.
"This later aggression of Rutherford towards Hitler no doubt exacerbated the strong stance Hitler took against Jehovah's Witnesses, and they would have suffered less had Rutherford acted more reasonably and with concern for the safety of German followers."
All quotes and more supporting material, including full transcripts are from here
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Thank you so much for that concession metis....but please let me make one thing very clear.....those who support an organization known for its corruption are just as complicit IMO.

Paul wrote at Romans 1:32...after mentioning the things that God detests.....
"Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them."

Those who consent, even if they never do the bad things themselves, are as guilty as those who practice these things.

Have you ever asked why the church could ever have done what they did in the first place if they were following the example set by Jesus? Do you see that they created a false god with three heads who tortured people alive in flames forever. They were imitating the god that they themselves had created. They still promote that same god to this day.



The RCC is an old institution with an appalling record of cruelty and abuse over many centuries. The corrupt Catholic hierarchy were at the base of all of it, not only leading people down the wrong path spiritually by incorporating pagan dogma into "Catholic" belief, but demonstrating in a real way that they were never serving the one they claim to represent. Who could imagine Jesus ever being complicit in their activities?



You know what is wrong with that analogy metis? People can't help being black....but people can help being racist. Its all in the justification. What's the difference with someone saying "I hate JW's, but I don't have a problem with Deeje". It happens all the time. We get over it. (John 15:11-18) We can't be good individuals in a bad organization and still expect God's favor, especially when he has told us to remove ourselves completely from false worship. You can't do that unless you know what false worship is. Popular consensus has never been a good guide in this, as the first century Jews demonstrated. You can't mix true worship with false worship and expect God to accept it. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

In the matter of judging, Jesus was speaking about judging fellow believers on a personal level by assuming that because someone did not live up to a standard set by themselves, that a person was not "saved". The Pharisees did this. They incorporated so many 'hedges' around the Law that it ended up being a complete farce. Collecting a few seeds of grain whilst walking through a field on the Sabbath became "harvesting"...killing a flea became "hunting".....a speck in a chicken egg was "consuming blood". The letter of the law taken to a ridiculous degree, killed the spirit of it and completely negated why the law was given. (Matthew 23:23-24)

Because the religious leaders all held to the same standard, Jesus judged them collectively. That did not mean that individuals could not break rank and vote with their feet, leaving that corrupt system and throwing their lot in with a very unpopular minority in Jesus' day. The honest-hearted ones did....but they were "few".
Ask why they were few.



It is acting immorally NOT to expose the lies that were first introduced by Catholicism and carried on at the Reformation to Protestants. They did not 'protest' enough apparently. Now look at what "Christianity" has become...? A bigger farce than what Judaism became under the leadership of the Pharisees. :facepalm:

History is repeating....ask why?

The Bible says that the devil rules this world (1 John 5:19) He has three aspects to his power over humanity.....politics, commercialism and false religion. It is not difficult to see his stamp on all of them. I have faith in the scriptures, metis....not in those who think their words and actions are above them. Self-justification is as bad as self-righteousness. Being confident about your beliefs does not make you self-righteous....unless you think that Jesus and the apostles demonstrated that quality.....? Truth needs no apology.



It is not dishonest to tell the truth. When have I lied? What are these false narratives I have supposedly invented? History speaks louder than I ever could.
You can claim that I have not told the truth, but I don't see where you have ever refuted a thing I have said. Does the history of this "mother" church inspire you with confidence? The history of the Jewish religion under its corrupt leaders didn't inspire Jesus either. No one could cling to that religious system and remain in God's good books. No one can remain in "Babylon the great" and do so either. (Revelation 18:4-5)



You cannot separate the church from the people. The church IS the people. The leadership is what makes the difference and when the leaders are corrupt, the people follow. That is the entire history of Israel if you care to check.

In this "time of the end", according to scripture, God is having a warning sounded in all the earth. "Just like the days of Noah" Jesus said. Everyone has a choice to listen and respond to that warning or to do what the people in Noah's day did......nothing.

Jesus said....(Matthew 24:32-33; 37-39)
“Now learn this illustration from the fig tree: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near.33 Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.......For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be."

They took no notice of Noah's warning....why? Because they simply didn't believe that what he said was true....if no one took him seriously and chose to ridicule him, that just fostered their confidence in rejecting what he said as nonsense.....by the time it became apparent that he was right, it was too late. Why do you think Jesus said it would happen again....and for all the same reasons?



People's experiences with individual Witnesses are not necessarily indicative of the whole organization as you have said regarding Catholicism. Some have had very bad examples in people they know....that is unfortunate but nothing new. Humans are imperfect. When we understand that carrying God's name is a huge responsibility, none who bring reproach or who misrepresent God will go unpunished. Israel proved that. Following a bad lead never took anyone to a good place. :(

Everyone has choices metis....they just need to be informed choices.
I'm not going to waste any more time on the massive bigotry and disingenuousness with the above. On top of that, you ignored what I said about me not defending the atrocities that were committed within the ranks of the CC and just went into another series of myopic rants.

My final response to you on this thread is that you cannot legitimately cite the moral atrocities that some in the CC have done by having your own multiple sessions of moral repugnance being displayed here. You obviously are a very hate-filled person who can "see the speck in your brother's eye but not notice the log that is in your pwn eye"-- Matthew 7[3].

I obviously know a great many Catholics, and if their behavior matched yours I would be looking for another church to attend. Fortunately, I don't see in them the hatred and twisting of the truth that I see all too often in your posts.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
"Millions Now Living will never Die" - the slogan for the 1925 "coming". Where was the "could be" in that? o_O

In those early days, this discourse and booklet gave hope of the Bible's promise of everlasting life in paradise. It's message inspired many to learn the Bible's truth for themselves, having only Christendom's teaching of everyone going to either heaven or hell. :( The timing may have been a little off but the message was true, nonetheless. The apostles got the timing wrong too, expecting Jesus to set up his Kingdom in the first century (Acts 6:4) ....time clarifies all things.

I remember when I first heard that message.....a great feeling of relief came over me because I had no desire to go to heaven and I never knew why. It was never God's intention for humans to go to heaven....or hell. He designed us to live a mortal life here on this earth...forever.

We can still say that with confidence, because it still applies today. :) "Millions Now Living Will Never Die".

An unnumbered "great crowd" will come through the end times to live that life on earth....millions of them.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I'm not going to waste any more time on the massive bigotry and disingenuousness with the above. On top of that, you ignored what I said about me not defending the atrocities that were committed within the ranks of the CC and just went into another series of myopic rants.

My final response to you on this thread is that you cannot legitimately cite the moral atrocities that some in the CC have done by having your own multiple sessions of moral repugnance being displayed here. You obviously are a very hate-filled person who can "see the speck in your brother's eye but not notice the log that is in your pwn eye"-- Matthew 7[3].

Oh dear metis. :facepalm: I have no "hate" for the people who attend the Catholic Church. I have a desire to tell them the truth. They have been misled for centuries by the "weeds" that Jesus foretold would come. It might not be what they want to hear, but then the majority of the Jews never received what Jesus or the apostles said with any joy either. Their leaders made sure of that. When Jesus was before Pilate, they were so sure that they were right about him, that they cursed themselves and their children with his blood. (Matthew 27:24-25) Will history repeat?

It is love of God and neighbor that kept the first Christians preaching to their fellow Jews......the same love keeps us going to the doors of people of all faiths, including Catholics. Again and again we try to deliver a warning that we believe will save their lives from the coming wrath of God, expressed towards all parts of the devil's system of things. If we felt no compassion for the people who are stuck in false religion of any description, then we would not be using our time and resources to reach them...and rescue them.

Remember the words of Jesus...."just like the days of Noah".....no one will be able to say they did not receive a warning about what God intends to do. It wasn't Noah who closed the door of the ark. It won't be us who tell them "time's up" :( .....and we have no idea how much time is actually left....we just see all the features the sign that Jesus gave, and know it is near. There will be no warning......the Bible says Jesus will come "like a thief in the night" to judge the world.

I obviously know a great many Catholics, and if their behavior matched yours I would be looking for another church to attend. Fortunately, I don't see in them the hatred and twisting of the truth that I see all too often in your posts.

I know a lot of Catholics too.....mainly a lot of former Catholics who can't believe that they were so misled.
Was it hatred and a twisting of the truth that motivated the first century Christians to expose the twisted beliefs of the Jewish leaders back then? People deserve the truth. It isn't loving to leave them in the dark. Lives are at stake and the truth is available to all....but not if we behave like ostriches.

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Olinda

Member
In those early days, this discourse and booklet gave hope of the Bible's promise of everlasting life in paradise. It's message inspired many to learn the Bible's truth for themselves, having only Christendom's teaching of everyone going to either heaven or hell. :( The timing may have been a little off but the message was true, nonetheless.
Are you saying that even if it was wrong, it was good? After all, the timing WAS the message!

Also, my point was to refute your statement that in respect of the time of the "end", JW messages use "could", not "is". Rutherford clearly was more definite than that.;)

I remember when I first heard that message.....a great feeling of relief came over me because I had no desire to go to heaven and I never knew why. It was never God's intention for humans to go to heaven....or hell. He designed us to live a mortal life here on this earth...forever.
I'm sincerely happy that you have a religion that gives you this relief. It bothers me more that if others are happy in a different belief - but still one that "loves God and your neighbour as yourself" - your religion seems to drive you to shake their belief and happiness.

We can still say that with confidence, because it still applies today. :) "Millions Now Living Will Never Die".
Wouldn't that be defining that 'the end' will come in this generation, or have I misunderstood?
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I would but it would be empty....:( We have nothing in common.
We believe in the inspiration of the Bible, the death and resurrection of Christ for the remission of sins, that we cannot be saved without God, that we are to evangelize the world, that we are to love God and neighbor, that God will judge the living and the dead. I trust you guys believe all these as well?

But tell me if the Jehovah's Witnesses can sign on at least to the first part of the Nicene Creed:
"I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, and of all things visible and invisible."
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
We believe in the inspiration of the Bible, the death and resurrection of Christ for the remission of sins, that we cannot be saved without God, that we are to evangelize the world, that we are to love God and neighbor, that God will judge the living and the dead. I trust you guys believe all these as well?

Well, I guess we do, but not in the same way as the RCC does...or the rest of Christendom for that matter.

Your Bible includes books that ours does not. We reject the inspiration of those books.
We also reject Catholic interpretation of the rest.

The death and resurrection of Jesus is not the death of one part of God, which another part of God resurrected.

We cannot be saved without God? Indeed, but our God is not your God....there is no resemblance actually.

Love of God and neighbor does not allow a Christian to take up arms and kill someone they identify as an enemy. In the two world wars of last century, how often was Catholic killing Catholic in direct violation of Christ's command to love your brothers and even your enemy. Can your Christian brother ever be your enemy? (1 John 4:20) Can you love anyone with a weapon of war? We are not supposed to be part of that world. (John 15:17-19) Yet the clergy supports the wars of the nations and always has. (Isaiah 1:15)

Evangelizing the world? When was the last time a Catholic person called at anyone's door the way the first century Christians did in search of lost souls? (Matthew 10:11-15; Acts 20:20) It is not only an obligation but a responsibility with serious consequences for negligence. (Ezekiel 3:17-21)

But tell me if the Jehovah's Witnesses can sign on at least to the first part of the Nicene Creed:
"I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, and of all things visible and invisible."

It would be nice I suppose, if the Catholic Church actually stuck to that.....instead of creating a trinity of gods in one head.

Where will I find such a deity in scripture?
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I can only find trinities in pagan religions....

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Its not looking good so far.
 

Olinda

Member
I will say what I always to to you Olinda....believe whatever you wish. :) You will anyway.
Certainly, but we are not trying to influence each other here, are we?
I found it important to balance the perspective a bit.
Never mind, Deeje, spring is on the way! :)
 
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