How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

Because the Manifestations of God are infallible, not their followers.

The manifestations don't sound human if they are infallible. The Buddha and Muhammad never claimed they are anything but human. Krishna isn't human anymore. Zoroaster was a prophet so far I researched. Moses is a human and so is Christ.

Infallible makes them god.

 

[Ingledsva]

Thus Jesus Message is in the Scriputres, you showed the answer to your own question.

Regards Tony

Not at all. It tells us YHVH's words. The law.

*

 

[CG Didymus]

Thank you, I will do a reply later unless another wishes to supply thoughts in return.

Regards Tony

Yeah, take a break and relax a little. Catch you later.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah, in the Book of Certitude, says the meanings have been corrupted.

“Nay, rather, by corruption of the text is meant that in which all Muslim divines are engaged today, that is the interpretation of God’s holy Book in accordance with their idle imaginings and vain desires. And as the Jews, in the time of Muhammad, interpreted those verses of the Pentateuch, that referred to His Manifestation, after their own fancy, and refused to be satisfied with His holy utterance, the charge of “perverting” the text was therefore pronounced against them”

With regard to the Gospels He states:

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred”

(Book of Certitude)

This isn't saying that Jews changed Ishmael to Isaac during the time of Muhammad are they? Because aren't there plenty of texts that go back further than that and all of them have Isaac and not Ishmael?

 

[CG Didymus]

Two Revelations from God whose Writings can be authenticated word for word authorized by Two Manifestations of God are stating this. God is All Knowing and it is Him, through His Representatives that is saying this and I don't doubt God. He should know better than any of us who was offered up as He was the One asking for the sacrifice.

The implication makes Judaism and Christianity as being based on lies... on, not only misinterpreted books, but corrupted books.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, within the sandbox of a human frame. But we all learn pain physical and mental as well as desire and aspiration.

Why come back to learn here things again when we can experience and learn completely new things?

And being a different person in a different place and time isn't a "completely" new thing?

 

[CG Didymus]

It's an error by a scribe that's all.

How could one scribe cause a permanent change? Wasn't there several Torah's being used with new being made by several scribes?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@InvestigateTruth

Found some more:

Ephesians 2:20 "having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone."

Unity in the Body

…10He who descended is the very one who ascended above all the heavens, in order to fill all things. 11 And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,12to equip the saints for works of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,… ~Ephesians 4:10-12

This is a good read from Jesus of Latter Day Saints and their take on the Apostles and the Church: "The Role of the Church."

 

[Ingledsva]

I have heard that if you go to Israel the people who live there can show you where Jesus' tomb was. The tomb itself isn't there anymore.

Actually they don't know where any of it is, - if it is even real.

Wasn't it Constantine's mother Helena - in the 320's - that went to Jerusalem - asked around - and decided where things took place?

No one knew were these places were at that time. Why would they keep track of where a criminal was buried - for almost 300 years?

*

 

[DavidFirth]

Actually they don't know where any of it is, - if it is even real.

Wasn't it Constantine's mother Helena - in the 320's - that went to Jerusalem - asked around - and decided where things took place?

No one knew were these places were at that time. Why would they keep track of where a criminal was buried - for almost 300 years?

*

Well, it is kind of difficult to keep track of a body that isn't there. But I digress...

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"There are sooooooooooooooooo many scriptures that say the body of christ are the people of the Church."​

Are two different sentences. I said the Church (upper cause) is the body/people of christ made present when more than come together in christ's name.

Scripture and The Church says that the Church is built on Jesus Christ
The Body of Christ are the christians: 1 Corinthians 12:27 "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it." and 1 Corinthians 3:11 "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

Where did I mention Peter?

The Church is a Body of People who come together to make Christ present in worship and union with god through his son. It has nothing to do with denominations and which apostle is who. If you want to know The Body more intimately, yes, fin a Body and practice as a christian. If you just want to fuss about the message and quote back and forth, be a solo christian and follow the message like that.

It does not change The Church is the People of Christ. Prove that it is not.

Yes, the verses you provided says a building was built, and its foundation was Jesus.
It also says to a specific audience who were living nearly 2000 years ago, they are the body of Christ.

Now prove to me these people who live today, and are called Christians, are also the body of Christ, in the same way that 2000 years ago, those people were called body of Christ.
You see, you are extending something over thousands of years. The Scripture is specifically telling a certain Audience who lived 2000 years ago.
So, if you happen to be a good person, your future generations will ever remain good? According to which logic?
So, how about this verse of Bible?

"Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter."

Who are they who call to Jesus 'Lord Lord'?
Are they Muslims? jews!? bahais?.... Or Christians?

Obviously Christians. But wait a minute, you are saying they are all body of Christ forever! Then how come Jesus is saying they will not enter heaven? How could body of Christ not enter heaven?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@InvestigateTruth

Found some more:

Ephesians 2:20 "having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone."

Unity in the Body

…10He who descended is the very one who ascended above all the heavens, in order to fill all things. 11 And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,12to equip the saints for works of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,… ~Ephesians 4:10-12

This is a good read from Jesus of Latter Day Saints and their take on the Apostles and the Church: "The Role of the Church."

Those verse should be read with this one:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

So, based on these verses, Jesus did not come to destroy the Laws of Prophets, but to fulfil. The Laws of Prophets are their teachings, or Religious and Spiritual Laws. Then Jesus, built it on the Rock, meaning, He fulfilled the Laws of Prophets, and built a new Law. He gave encouraging words to Peter, the Rock. So, church is the Law that was fulfilled, or the Religion of Christ.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How so? (In addition to the other two posts you totally skipped) Only one Bahai has asked me anything that has nothing to do with Bahai. That's like my tripping and you are telling me how you stubbed your toe over in Miami Beach and here is proof, and you show me pictures.

How are the great beings explained? They are from one God. That is the helping hand offered by the Baha'i view.

You now can use this hand, or choose any of the other hands offered, or choose to get back up your way.

From the hand offered, it just waits to see if you still need the offer.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Are you sure you have the right person because I only gave you five or six verses to show you the body of Christ is built on Christ and it is the people/body/mass to which the apostles carried in Acts and Corinthians etc. How you see i as a Bahai has nothing to do with what christianity and scripture teaches. Bahai is not christian.

Yes, the verses you provided says a building was built, and its foundation was Jesus. It also says to a specific audience who were living nearly 2000 years ago, they are the body of Christ.

Yes... and, unless you're saying Christians today are non-existent, Christians do gather together in worship becoming one body as jesus says about continuing the meal of his last supper in remembrance. Are you sure you read the bible? This is basic stuff.

Unless you're saying people in the church are not real questions only those 2,000 years ago?????

Now prove to me these people who live today, and are called Christians, are also the body of Christ, in the same way that 2000 years ago, those people were called body of Christ.

WHAT???? Wait. What??? I was a part of the body of Christ.

Rephrase your question because any person, JW, Baptist, LDS, Catholic, whoever will look at you funny right now.

You see, you are extending something over thousands of years. The Scripture is specifically telling a certain Audience who lived 2000 years ago.

Of course. Christianity lives on as brothers and sisters of christ are always in service to humanity as one body.

You're saying that union with god stopped when the Church came "into office." Tell the Jews that. Even Muslims worship as one body and so do and Jews. (Edit)

So, if you happen to be a good person, your future generations will ever remain good? According to which logic?

What do you mean? Me personally-I will be spirit and take care of my family living on earth, protect them, etc. Energy/spirits don't die.

Scripture? Once they become is union with god, they are good because god is. No sinner can be in the presence of god; hence the need for jesus in christian thought. Most god-religions don't have that. Just, well, christians and now Bahai.

So, how about this verse of Bible?

"Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter."

How does this relate to the body of christ being the members of the Church?

Who are they who call to Jesus 'Lord Lord'?

Those who gave themselves to be part of the body of christ-thereby, christians.

Are they Muslims? jews!? bahais?.... Or Christians?

Jews don't believe in christ. So the question is inapplicable to them. Muslims see Christ as a prophet, so other than that, I don't know. Christians, of course, believe what you quoted.

What's your point?

Obviously Christians. But wait a minute, you are saying they are all body of Christ forever! Then how come Jesus is saying they will not enter heaven? How could body of Christ not enter heaven?

Body of christ means body of believers. Believers who die as believers in faith are resurrected like christ to go to heaven. When they reach judgement, after being judged for their deeds, they (the faithful ones) receive a new body. Then they are in union with god forever.

What you're saying is god isn't eternal and no one can be in union with god.

Those who cannot enter heaven (union with god) are those of us who do not believe in christ within his body.

Those verse should be read with this one:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Again, I don't see the connection. Jesus also said don't look to scriptures for the truth but look to him. If you want answers, ask christ not scripture. This verse is another way to say don't look at the Law (the written Hebrew scriptures) because even the Law of Moses testifies to Christ-so he says look to him to get to god.

Regardless the interpretation, most christians know this. I don't know about Bahai.

"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

I remember that one. If you're trying to refute The Catholic Churches (Roman and not) it won't work. That's what they believe. The Church, as I quoted, are built on the apostles of christ. Doesn't matter if it's Peter, John, or Paul. It is what it is.

What's your point?

So, based on these verses, Jesus did not come to destroy the Laws of Prophets, but to fulfil. The Laws of Prophets are their teachings, or Religious and Spiritual Laws. Then Jesus, built it on the Rock, meaning, He fulfilled the Laws of Prophets, and built a new Law. He gave encouraging words to Peter, the Rock. So, church is the Law that was fulfilled, or the Religion of Christ.

Okay........???

What does this have to do with my saying The Church is the body of christ built on the apostles and the cornerstone as Jesus?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How are the great beings explained? They are from one God. That is the helping hand offered by the Baha'i view.

You now can rgis hand, or choose any of the other hands offered, or choose to get back up your way.

From the hand offered, it just waits to see if you still need the offer.

Regards Tony

A lot of people, atheist for example, can help other people in need without Christ and other religious figures. If you need them to help me, that's your thing.

I said, it is not your belief it is how you express it. But you're not reading my posts and if you are, you are totally totally skipping them.

Christ took time to explain to his disciples the meaning of his analogies etc. You just skip right over people's posts.

This is not peace. This is division.

Peace starts with you.

 

[oldbadger]

Clear, why did they reject Christ and still do?

Because the Galilean man who lead a mission for the re-establishment and fulfillment of all the laws of Moses, including the poor laws....... failed.
Because, like Bahauallah, the Jews never accepted that Jesus was a Meshiah, was never resurrected, is not God.

In that, the Jews agree with Bahai!

Why did the Nation fall?

Because the corrupted, hellenised, greedy, quisling priesthood deserted the Laws of Moses in favour of pagan fashions and pagan Gods.

Why is there Prophecy saying God will send another Messenger?

God has sent 9000 messengers and the most perfect of them were so humbled and lived so correctly that humans never noticed them. (Rabbi Lionel Blue)

That shows that one has not understood this Message of peace and unity.

Tony.......
There won't be peace if a Bahai Government would have military forces stationed around the world to put down uprisings.
There cannot be unity in a World where Bahauallah has written that non-Bahais must have been bad that they cannot see Bahai truth.

John 5:46"If you have beleived Moses you would beleive Me, as Moses wrote about Me.

The Message, I am the First I am the Last.

Yeah...... an unknown person, living upon a prison island off Ephesus, who knew so little about Jesus that he couldn't even get the timeline of his mission right, who needed to change the face of Jesus from 'Son of Man' (any Jew can say that) to 'Son of God', who could not admit that his arrest was caused by demonstrating and picketing in the Temple, who told huge tales about Jesus brining dead people alive.......... and who clearly had no clue about the man that he claimed Moses wrote about......
......... good quote, that.

 

[oldbadger]

Actually they don't know where any of it is, - if it is even real.

Wasn't it Constantine's mother Helena - in the 320's - that went to Jerusalem - asked around - and decided where things took place?

No one knew were these places were at that time. Why would they keep track of where a criminal was buried - for almost 300 years?

*

Exactly....... I'm reminded of the opinion of a well known RF HJ scholar who inisists that anybody who threw a demo and commotion in the Great Temple, picketing the Temple Courts and daring to return next day to do it again would be executed out-of-hand and chucked in a pit for dogs to consume.

Somehow I think that Pilate was interested enough in Jesus to either 'bloody up' and execute another, or to conspire with Joseph of A to get him down from the cross alive and safely away. Or, possibly, to get the executed body away and buried in unknown location so that followers could not make any shrine.

In medieval times English monasteries were full of holy relics.......... a very successful trade!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A lot of people, atheist for example, can help other people in need without Christ and other religious figures. If you need them to help me, that's your thing.

I said, it is not your belief it is how you express it. But you're not reading my posts and if you are, you are totally totally skipping them.

Christ took time to explain to his disciples the meaning of his analogies etc. You just skip right over people's posts.

This is not peace. This is division.

Peace starts with you.

You have always said it is not about me , I am glad you now say that Peace does start with each individual. I agree.

With the amount of posts here, I do not think we can be accused of not trying to explain our position.

It is a strong position, based fully on Scriptures of the past, to which we have always offered we would study together.

Baha'u'llah laid all the issues on the line and said choose your path. I just read this tonight and I offer this from Baha'u'llah;

"...I swear by My life! This Revelation is endowed with such a power that it will act as the lodestone for all nations and kindreds of the earth. Should one pause to meditate attentively he would recognize that no place is there, nor can there be, for anyone to flee to.
In such manner hath the Kitáb-i-Aqdas been revealed that it attracteth and embraceth all the divinely appointed Dispensations. Blessed those who peruse it. Blessed those who apprehend it. Blessed those who meditate upon it. Blessed those who ponder its meaning. So vast is its range that it hath encompassed all men ere their recognition of it. Ere long will its sovereign power, its pervasive influence and the greatness of its might be manifested on earth. Verily, thy God is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed. Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 195-201

All that is happening in this world, all the comments placed in this thread attest to the truth of those Words. No person can stop the momentum that was started by the Bab and Baha'u'llah 173 years ago.

You talk about not needing God. I can say this is not correct, It would not be just for me to tell you anything else.

Whatever happens as the future unfolds, you now know that you can count on Baha'i's to be there and ready to help, anytime.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why did the gospel accounts say he was seen alive and talked with the disciples, and with them, was touched by Thomas to prove he wasn't a ghost but had "flesh and bone"? Since you can't say it was a lie and a hoax, how do you make all that symbolically to mean what Abdu'l Baha said that the "Body of Christ" is the believers and that is what rose from being spiritually dead?

In the end I decided not to give my thoughts on this specific passage. Abdul'baha's explanation on this subject is the answer that needs to be considered.

Thus the reply I give is an observation.

There are many stories in the Bible and each of these stories now need to be considered with we now know what science also says. This will give us the best refelections.

Stories of Adam and Eve, Jonah and the Whale, Noah and an Ark, Cain and Abel, Christ and the Last Supper, Christ and the Resurrection, Christ feeding the masses, all have no real meaning in the material world if we look at them with our modern knowledge of science.

If we then look at these stories and picture spiritually what they are telling us, then plausible meanings are found.

Like Christ returning on a cloud, a cloud being vapor that rises. The plausable spiritul thought being a material cloud prevents us seeing the sun and diminishes the heat of the sun, thus the spiritual clouds that Christ returns upon are the clouds of doctrine and supersrision that shut us out from recognising Him.

The Kitab-i-iqan explains this in detail.

I highly recommend that if it is read it will answer many questions.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

You just skip right over people's posts.

That's because they're all too 'negative'.