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The Divinity of Christ

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The understanding is "that angels worship HIM" not another Agnel
There are some theologians who believe that Jesus, who clearly cannot be "the Father", may have been like a super-angel who voluntarily allowed himself to come down from heaven, live as a human, thus allowing himself to be crucified for the forgiveness of sins. Any thoughts on that?
 

Daisies4me

Active Member
I accept the fact that my posts may not open the eyes of current indoctrinated witnesses, and what I post is not intended as an attack on witnesses, I just want to get the truth out to help anyone who is contemplating becoming a witness. Witnesses do not tell the people they are recruiting the whole truth, and that's my purpose. I have studied with a witness for almost 2 years, I've been to meetings, I have the 2014/2015 WT library CD with all of the orgs literature, from 1950 until present. I have talked to many witnesses, I know so much more about how your org works and what they believe then you think I do!

(quote)
well now. I suspected as much. Many attend meetings, secure literature and pretend to be interested in learning Bible truths, only to deviously try to find some 'dirt' that they can use to throw in the face of Jehovah's Name people, and spread lies about them! Not a surprise, really, as there are many used by Satan on the guise of 'helping poor people who aren't able to think for themselves and don't have the intellect to make decisions about what is beneficial for them and what is not".... oh, but YOU DO, don't you? lolol WRONG.

You may be able to read words on a page, but your treasure is where your heart is, as is stated by Luke, and you have revealed your true colors. imho, you desire to do the will of your father, that one was a manslayer from the beginning, as the scriptures tell us.
How sad for you. And for those whom you hood-wink into thinking that you have their best interests at heart. what a crock. Rather than trying to find truth, you busy yourself trying to block others along their way as they search for God, trying to keep them from learning truths. Seems like you probably read about such similar ones, who did the same in Jesus' day-- if you looked into the Bible... the same who instigated the death of our Lord, Jesus, and used the same rhetoric that you just spewed.

You can cite scripture, but you don't have accurate understanding, because you are in spiritual darkness, and God has not given you His Spirit of understanding. People who are humble, and teachable give their all to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, as 1 Peter 21-22 admonishes, as VOLUNTEER Bible teachers, obeying Jesus' command to 'feed his sheep' in all nations, tribes and tongues around the earth. And they meet the same persecution by false religious 'teachers' and rulers who are fed by folks like you, as our Lord and His Apostles did. How wonderful it is to be found worthy enough to be able to have been counted worthy enough to withstand persecution in loyalty to our God, Jehovah, and to our King, Jesus Christ. Your purposes have been revealed, as were your predecessors before you, and the same fate awaits all who don't take seriously Jesus' admonition that 'the one who does it to the least of these little ones, does it to me'.

Those who have a sincere desire for Bible truths will find it, regardless of the likes of you and your ilk. May God forgive you.
Your flimsy excuse for attempting to denigrate JW's "to show people the facts" has blown up in your own face. Your false allegations have all been explained from the scriptures. but I will not waste anymore time as you try to 'set traps', just as the religious leaders did to my Lord. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. .
I hope you will repent. to not believe is one thing--but to imitate the apostasy is serious and lives are affected . no laughing matter. God sees all.

(quote)


Like this comment right here. According to your teachers, Jesus didn't assign the preaching work to all witnesses, but only to the elite 144,000, and they subcontract out to the "other sheep". When someone joins your org, they become property of the 'slave' and therefore have to do the work that was assigned to the 'slave'.

*** w07 4/1 pp. 24-25 par. 14 Loyal to Christ and His Faithful Slave ***
14 The humble submission of the other sheep to the anointed members of spiritual Israel was foretold in the prophecy of Isaiah: “This is what Jehovah has said: ‘The unpaid laborers of Egypt and the merchants of Ethiopia and the Sabeans, tall men, will themselves come over even to you, and yours they will become. Behind you they will walk; in fetters they will come over, and to you they will bow down. To you they will pray, saying, “Indeed God is in union with you, and there is no one else; there is no other God.”’” (Isaiah 45:14) Symbolically, the other sheep today walk behind the anointed slave class and its Governing Body, following their leadership. As “unpaid laborers,” the other sheep willingly expend their physical strength and their resources in support of the worldwide preaching work that Christ assigned to his anointed followers on earth.—Acts 1:8; Revelation 12:17.

Jesus assigned the work to the anointed, but, as "unpaid laborers" YOU have to "expend YOUR strength, YOUR resources, to do that work that was assigned to them!

They say that the "other sheep" walk behind the anointed slave class AND it's governing body". But I know, and assume you do to, that the "anointed slave class" IS the governing body, since the "slave class" is limited to the 7 men in New York, which is the governing body. In past teachings, the "slave class" included all 144,000 anointed, but "new light" came and it was reduced to only the 7 men.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Seems like you probably read about such similar ones, who did the same in Jesus' day-- if you looked into the Bible... the same who instigated the death of our Lord, Jesus, and used the same rhetoric that you just spewed.

And why did they instigate the death of Jesus? Because they denied His deity, much like the witnesses do! Witnesses are more like the ones you are describing, because they deny the deity of Jesus.

well now. I suspected as much. Many attend meetings, secure literature and pretend to be interested in learning Bible truths, only to deviously try to find some 'dirt' that they can use to throw in the face of Jehovah's Name people, and spread lies about them!

How can you say I spread lies about the witnesses? Everything I have said, I back up with quotes from the witnesses own literature.
 

Daisies4me

Active Member
I find no scriptural support that "The Word" is Michael the Archangel. The Book of Hebrews makes it quite clear:

Heb 1:4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

(quote)
is not the archangel higher than the rest? Is that not a 'more excellent name"?
(quote)

The Son Exalted Above Angels
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father,And He shall be to Me a Son”? 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” 7 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”

The understanding is "that angels worship HIM" not another Agnel

(quote)

Hi Ken

searching out translations, it appears that the Greek interlinear translates the passage a bit differently. The choice by some translators may have been tainted by the false doctrine of the trinity, presuming that Jesus was to be worshipped as God, which is not accurate.

Hebrews 1:5 "To which one for he said sometime of the angels Son of me ar you , I today I have generated you, and again I shall be to him into Father, and he will be to me into Son. (6) Whenever but again he should lead in the Firstborn (one) into the being inhabited (earth) , he is saying And let do obeisance toward him all angels of God."

There is a difference between obeisance and worship.
IN the scriptures, it basically means 'bow down', and such bowing might be done as an act of respect for a king, a high priest, a prophet, or a person of authority. all of those examples can be found in the Bible. Bowing down to humans as an act of respect was admissible , but bowing to anyone other than Jehovah as a deity was prohibited by God.

So they could have done obeisance without actually doing an act of worship.

peace to you

(quote)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
There are some theologians who believe that Jesus, who clearly cannot be "the Father", may have been like a super-angel who voluntarily allowed himself to come down from heaven, live as a human, thus allowing himself to be crucified for the forgiveness of sins. Any thoughts on that?

Certainly one can get many positions from theologians.

The position suggested above would cause many questions that, IMO, would cause more problems than be the answer to any questions:

  1. If we are to judge angels, how can an angel judge us? 1 Corin. 6:3
  2. If angels are called to worship God, why would other angels worship another angel? Heb 1:6
  3. Theologically speaking, if man was created like unto YHWH, how can an angel pay for the sins of all of mankind and remain solvent?
  4. If angels are called to minister to mankind, why would mankind minister to an angel? Heb 1:14
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
(quote)

Hi Ken

searching out translations, it appears that the Greek interlinear translates the passage a bit differently. The choice by some translators may have been tainted by the false doctrine of the trinity, presuming that Jesus was to be worshipped as God, which is not accurate.

Hebrews 1:5 "To which one for he said sometime of the angels Son of me ar you , I today I have generated you, and again I shall be to him into Father, and he will be to me into Son. (6) Whenever but again he should lead in the Firstborn (one) into the being inhabited (earth) , he is saying And let do obeisance toward him all angels of God."

There is a difference between obeisance and worship.
IN the scriptures, it basically means 'bow down', and such bowing might be done as an act of respect for a king, a high priest, a prophet, or a person of authority. all of those examples can be found in the Bible. Bowing down to humans as an act of respect was admissible , but bowing to anyone other than Jehovah as a deity was prohibited by God.

So they could have done obeisance without actually doing an act of worship.

peace to you

(quote)
I disagree (certainly you are approaching this with the eyeglasses of your personal doctrine)


Very specifically it says don't do obeisance to angels:

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Both words are proskuneo and very specifically says don't do it.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Let me play devil's advocate and give you "the answers"! :cool:
If we are to judge angels, how can an angel judge us? 1 Corin. 6:3
Because he's a super-angel given a special duty and a special designation by God.
If angels are called to worship God, why would other angels worship another angel? Heb 1:6
Jesus is not to be worshiped as he said that he "came to serve, not to be served". Worship only should be to God, regardless as to how one may feel Jesus relates to "the Father". Praise Jesus, yes; worship him, no.

Theologically speaking, if man was created like unto YHWH, how can an angel pay for the sins of all of mankind and remain solvent?
How can sacrificing a bull or a sheep forgive sins? Answer: because God designated them as such, which He also did with Jesus later.

If angels are called to minister to mankind, why would mankind minister to an angel? Heb 1:14
Because the Boss selected him to be above the other angels.

There's your answers, and you can take them to the bank...
or whatever.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
:D

Let me play devil's advocate and give you "the answers"! :cool: Because he's a super-angel given a special duty and a special designation by God.

Except there is no scriptural support for that.

Jesus is not to be worshiped as he said that he "came to serve, not to be served". Worship only should be to God, regardless as to how one may feel Jesus relates to "the Father". Praise Jesus, yes; worship him, no.
I think the problem that people encounter is when they equate The Word as being the same as when The Word was made flesh. It is a parenthetical suspension of the person of The Word that is restored after his resurrection.

The most common word for worship in the Greek is Proskuneo. When Satan tempted Jesus and told him to fall down and worship him, Jesus responded "10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

I would be hard pressed to say that this word is limited to just giving a casual honor with the emphatic response of Jesus.

The same word is used when many came and worshipped Jesus. Yes, his purpose wasn't to come to be worshipped, but he never told anyone not to.

How can sacrificing a bull or a sheep forgive sins? Answer: because God designated them as such, which He also did with Jesus later.
Yes... but the question is "who is Jesus". There still isn't any support for him being an angel although "God designating" someone is.

To quote a student of Gamaliel:

7 But into the Kodesh HaKodashim only the Kohen Gadol goes, and only once a year, and not without DAHM (blood) which he offers for himself and for the shiggot haAm (unintentional sins of the people).
8By this the Ruach Hakodesh signifies that the Derech into the Kodesh HaKodashim has not yet been revealed while the Mishkan, the hachitzon (the outer one), is still standing,
9 Which is a mashal for the present time. Accordingly both minchot and zevakhim are being offered which cannot fulfill with respect to the matzpun (conscience) of the worshiper,
10 Als (since) they deal only with okhel and mashkeh (drink) and different tevilot, external regulations being imposed until the time of the Tikkun (Restoration).
11 But when Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach came as the Kohen Gadol of the coming tovot (good things), he entered through the Mishkan Gadol, the greater and more perfect Mishkan, not made with hands, that is, not of this B’ri’ah (Creation);
12 Not through the dahm of se’irim (goats) and of agalim (bulls) but through his own dahm [Isa 52:15] he entered the Kodesh HaKodashim once and for all, having secured for us the Geulah Olamim.
13 For if the dahm of se’irim (goats) and parim (young bulls) and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have become tum’a (uncleanness), if this dahm sets apart for kedushah for the tohorah (purification) of the basar,
14 By how much more will the dahm of Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach who through the eternal Ruach Hakodesh offered himself without MUM (defect, VAYIKRA 22:20) to G-d, by how much more will his DAHM (Isa 52:15) purify our matzpun (conscience) from ma’asim metim (dead works) in order to serve the Elohim Chayyim.
15 And for this reason Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach is the Metavekh of a Brit Chadasha in order that those who are HaKeru’im (the Called ones) may receive the nachalat olam (eternal inheritance) of the Havtachah (Promise), because a mavet, a kapparat hapeysha’im has taken place that gives them pedut (ransom for redemption, Geulah) from peysha’im (transgressions, Isa 53:5) that were committed under HaBrit HaRishonah.
16 For where there is a brit or a tzavva’a (will), it is aizen (well founded, incontrovertible) that the histalkus (passing) of the one who made it must be established.
17 For a Brit, a tzavv’a (covenant, will) is valid only when Bnei Adam have died, for it is never validly executed as long as the ba’al tzavva’a (testator, person who makes the will) lives.
18 Hence the Brit HaRishonah was not cut without DAHM. [Ex 24:8]
19 For when every mitzvah had been spoken by Moshe Rabbeinu to all the Am Brit according to the Torah, he took the dahm of se’irim and of agalim with mayim and scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled both the sefer itself and all the people,
20 Saying, "HINEI DAHM HABRIT ("This is the blood of the Covenant"—Ex 24:8) which Hashem commanded you.
21And in the same way he sprinkled both the Mishkan and also all the k’lei haSherut (vessels of service in the Mishkan) with dahm.
22 Indeed, according to the Torah, almost everything is metohar (purified) by dahm, and without a kapporah by means of shefach dahm (the shedding of blood) there is no selicha (forgiveness).
23 Therefore, it was necessary for the tavnit (pattern, copy, SHEMOT 25:40) of the things in Shomayim be metohar (purified) with these, but the things of Shomayim themselves with better zevakhim than these.
24 For Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach did not enter into a Kodesh HaKodashim made by human hands, a mere TAVNIT (pattern, copy Ex 25:40) of the true Kodesh HaKodashim, but Moshiach entered into Shomayim itself, now to appear before the face of Hashem for us.
25 Nor was it so that he may offer himsef again and again, as the Kohen Gadol enters the Kodesh HaKodashim yearly with dahm not his own;
26 For then it would have been necessary for him to suffer often from the hivvased tevel (foundation of the world); but now, once at the Ketz HaOlamim, he has appeared to put away averos (sins) by the korban of himself (Isa 53:10).
27 And in as much as it is appointed for men to die once and after this HaMishpat [Yom HaDin],
28 So he, having been offered up once in order that HU NASA CHET RABBIM ("he bore away the sin of many" YESHAYAH 53:12) and shall appear sheynit (a second time) for Yeshu’at Eloheinu without reference to chet for those who expectantly khakeh levo’o shel (await the arrival of) Moshiach.

I would have to defer to the understanding of a student of Gamaliel:


Because the Boss selected him to be above the other angels.
Yes... but did the Boss select an angel? or The Word.

There's your answers, and you can take them to the bank...
or whatever.


LOL... but which bank?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Except there is no scriptural support for that.
There is no scriptural support for any view on that other than there's a connection between "the Father" and Jesus.

The early church in the 2nd and 3rd centuries had many debates on exactly what this affiliation is and there was no consensus. Two excellent books that cover this in some detail are "Tradition In the Early Church" by Hanson and "How Jesus Became God" by Ehrman, and both authors do not draw any "final answer" on this question. It's also one of the reasons why Catholicism labeled it "the mystery of the trinity".
The same word is used when many came and worshipped Jesus. Yes, his purpose wasn't to come to be worshipped, but he never told anyone not to.
We gotta be careful here because how one may define "worship" may vary. Are statements of praise "worship", for example? I mention this because the early church did believe in "the communion of saints", therefore it is perfectly allowable to pray through Jesus or a saint as long as the prayer ultimately is for God, and it's allowable to praise Jesus or a saint as if they're still alive. It was perceived that there was no insurmountable division between the church living and the church dead.

I would have to defer to the understanding of a student of Gamaliel:
Since there were many students with many different ideas, I can't defer to any of them.

Yes... but did the Boss select an angel? or The Word.
We don't know, but why not? We could ask the same question as to why Jesus was also "true man" and why God chose to go that route?

LOL... but which bank?
Me'tis Bank & Trust me.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
There is no scriptural support for any view on that other than there's a connection between "the Father" and Jesus.
BUT!! there is certainly more on my side than a super angel's side.

The early church in the 2nd and 3rd centuries had many debates on exactly what this affiliation is and there was no consensus. Two excellent books that cover this in some detail are "Tradition In the Early Church" by Hanson and "How Jesus Became God" by Ehrman, and both authors do not draw any "final answer" on this question. It's also one of the reasons why Catholicism labeled it "the mystery of the trinity".
Not going to argue that there is a mystery point. I took a class once, on this mystery. The moment that you would say that there is just "God", we would come to a place that there are three parts. Just when we were about to nail there are three parts, we would find that there is one God.

That's why I like it simple. :D

God has made us in His image and in His likeness... and I am one but have three distinct parts. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :D (not sticking it to you)

We gotta be careful here because how one may define "worship" may vary. Are statements of praise "worship", for example? I mention this because the early church did believe in "the communion of saints", therefore it is perfectly allowable to pray through Jesus or a saint as long as the prayer ultimately is for God, and it's allowable to praise Jesus or a saint as if they're still alive. It was perceived that there was no insurmountable division between the church living and the church dead.
WOW! Talking about getting into the thick of it.

Yes, there are many words for praise and worship even in the Hebrew.

But I came to the conclusion that I would rather have a direct line to YHWH than going through Moses or a saint.

We don't know, but why not? We could ask the same question as to why Jesus was also "true man" and why God chose to go that route?
I think IMHO the issue is who can pay for sins and still remain solvent. Likening it to businesses, a company can buy a bankrupt company if it can absorb the liabilities and still remains solvent. My position is that an angel can't absorb the sins of all humanity and remain solvent. IMV, that would make the angel YHWY and would be deserving of worship ( a no no).
Me'tis Bank & Trust me.

You literally had me laughing. So enjoy your humor!!
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
BUT!! there is certainly more on my side than a super angel's side.
I'm gonna shoot the scorekeeper.

God has made us in His image and in His likeness... and I am one but have three distinct parts. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :D
Stubborn as a mule, and ya probably look like one.:p

(not sticking it to you)
That's because I'm married to an Italian and consume a lot of olive oil that leaks though my pores.

But I came to the conclusion that I would rather have a direct line to YHWH than going through Moses or a saint.
Then why go through Jesus?

I think IMHO the issue is who can pay for sins and still remain solvent.
Well, we definitely see this differently because I don't see this "last sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins" in a literalistic manner. But if used symbolically, it may. I can explain if you want me to.

My position is that an angel can't absorb the sins of all humanity and remain solvent.
See above. Plus if that angel is given that power by God, then why not? To me, that seems more logical than having God sacrificed to God.
 

Daisies4me

Active Member
Let me play devil's advocate and give you "the answers"! :cool: Because he's a super-angel given a special duty and a special designation by God.

(quote)
Hi Metis
You have stated properly. if a person will read Revelation 20:1-5, and absorb what it says, then realize the scriptures tell us that God has delegated all of the judging to Jesus Christ, (there are scriptures to support that),
And then understand that there are 144,000 associate Kings that are chosen to rule in the heavens with Jesus, to whom Jesus has delegated authority, then it becomes clear. additional scripture for reference adds strength to what you have correctly stated. The 'holy ones' who are spoken of rule as Kings, from the heavenly throne of God, as those loyal ones 'bought from the earth', who died, and were resurrected to the heavens as mighty spirit creatures, as was Jesus himself, for the purpose of forming the "new heavens", or governmental authority that will then rule over the entire earth, as Psalm 37:9-11, & 19 foretells. the 'judging' is not for every human, but only for a specific number, for whom the Bible was written, and the rest of us benefit for God's provision and look forward to the privilege of being subjects of the Kingdom of God when it restores the entire earth to paradise, resurrects those in the graves, and restores mankind to perfection in mind, body and spirit. Hallelujah!!

Matthew 19:28
28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you, in the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.
2 Timothy 2:12
12 if we go on enduring, we will also rule together as kings; if we deny, he will also deny us;
Revelation 1:6
6 and he made us to be a kingdom,priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.
take good care

(quote)



Jesus is not to be worshiped as he said that he "came to serve, not to be served". Worship only should be to God, regardless as to how one may feel Jesus relates to "the Father". Praise Jesus, yes; worship him, no.

How can sacrificing a bull or a sheep forgive sins? Answer: because God designated them as such, which He also did with Jesus later.

Because the Boss selected him to be above the other angels.

There's your answers, and you can take them to the bank...
or whatever.
 

Daisies4me

Active Member
I'm gonna shoot the scorekeeper.

Stubborn as a mule, and ya probably look like one.:p

That's because I'm married to an Italian and consume a lot of olive oil that leaks though my pores.

Then why go through Jesus?

Well, we definitely see this differently because I don't see this "last sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins" in a literalistic manner. But if used symbolically, it may. I can explain if you want me to.

See above. Plus if that angel is given that power by God, then why not? To me, that seems more logical than having God sacrificed to God.

(quote)
LOL , Metis. very entertaining!
I particularly like the 'more logical than having God sacrificed to God' comment. Makes sense to me....

Thanks for the chuckles.

(quote)
 

Daisies4me

Active Member
Certainly one can get many positions from theologians.

The position suggested above would cause many questions that, IMO, would cause more problems than be the answer to any questions:

  1. If we are to judge angels, how can an angel judge us? 1 Corin. 6:3
  2. If angels are called to worship God, why would other angels worship another angel? Heb 1:6
  3. Theologically speaking, if man was created like unto YHWH, how can an angel pay for the sins of all of mankind and remain solvent?
  4. If angels are called to minister to mankind, why would mankind minister to an angel? Heb 1:14
(quote)

Hi Ken
number 3 begs the question: How much was the ransom? What did God require under the Law of Moses, for an offense against another fellow human? Was it not 'like for like"? Or, the exact amount that was taken, that had to be returned in order to 'right the wrong''? When Adam sinned against God, what sentence did God pass on him? yes, the death sentence. So everyone who descended from Adam would be born with the sin of Adam in their members, right? So why has every human since then had to die? It 's the Law. So what has to happen to free mankind from the eternal sentence of death? "the same amount that Adam lost--like for like".

Jesus’ sacrifice is the means by which God delivers, or saves, humankind from sin and death. The Bible refers to the shed blood of Jesus as a ransom price. (Ephesians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:18, 19)
Thus, Jesus said that he came “to give his life a ransom for many.”—Matthew 20:28, King James Version.

n the Bible, the term “ransom” involves the following three elements:

  1. It is a payment.—Numbers 3:46, 47.

  2. It brings about a release, or redemption.—Exodus 21:30.

  3. It corresponds to the value of what is paid for, or covers it.
Consider: How do these elements apply to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ? How will all of mankind who puts faith in the merits of Jesus' Ransom Sacrifice to God, benefit when the full application of the sacrifice will be applied to mankind?

How would you answer?



(quote)
 

Daisies4me

Active Member
I disagree (certainly you are approaching this with the eyeglasses of your personal doctrine)

(quote)
Hi Ken
Nope--from the interlinear translation from the Greek, and also because it is in harmony with other scriptures found in the Bible. 1 corinthians 1:10

Obeisance is not the same as worship. IN Bible times, men prostrated themselves to other men, government officials, persons authority, etc., as a means of respect .

(quote)

(quote)
Very specifically it says don't do obeisance to angels:

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Both words are proskuneo and very specifically says don't do it.

(quote)

some information for your consideration, if you will---obeisance is
The act of bowing, kneeling, prostrating the body, or making some other gesture to betoken submission; or simply the paying of respect.

It adequately translates the Hebrew hish·ta·chawahʹ and the Greek pro·sky·neʹo in many cases.

Hish·ta·chawahʹ means, basically, “bow down.” (Ge 18:2) Such bowing might be done as an act of respect or deference toward another human, as to a king (1Sa 24:8; 2Sa 24:20;Ps 45:11), the high priest (1Sa 2:36), a prophet (2Ki 2:15), or other person of authority (Ge 37:9, 10; 42:6; Ru 2:8-10), to an elder relative (Ge 33:1-6; 48:11, 12; Ex 18:7; 1Ki 2:19), or even to strangers as an expression of courteous regard (Ge 19:1, 2). Abraham bowed down to the Canaanite sons of Heth from whom he sought to buy a burial place. (Ge 23:7) Isaac’s blessing on Jacob called for national groups and Jacob’s own “brothers” to bow down to him. (Ge 27:29; compare 49:8.)
When men started to bow down before David’s son Absalom, he grabbed them and kissed them, evidently to further his political ambitions by making a show of putting himself on a level with them. (2Sa 15:5, 6)
Mordecai refused to prostrate himself before Haman, not because he viewed the practice as wrong in itself, but doubtless because this high Persian official was an accursed Amalekite by descent.—Es 3:1-6.

From the above examples it is clear that this Hebrew term of itself does not necessarily have a religious sense or signify worship.

Nevertheless, in a large number of cases it is used in connection with worship, either of the true God (Ex 24:1; Ps 95:6; Isa 27:13; 66:23) or of false gods. (De 4:19; 8:19; 11:16) Persons might bow down in prayer to God (Ex 34:8;Job 1:20, 21) and often prostrated themselves upon receiving some revelation from God or some expression or evidence of his favor, thereby showing their gratitude, reverence, and humble submission to his will.—Ge 24:23-26, 50-52; Ex 4:31; 12:27, 28; 2Ch 7:3; 20:14-19; compare 1Co 14:25; Re 19:1-4.

Bowing down to humans as an act of respect was admissible, but bowing to anyone other than Jehovah as a deity was prohibited by God. (Ex 23:24; 34:14

(quote)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I'm gonna shoot the scorekeeper.
Someone said "Metis is a lousy shot".

Stubborn as a mule, and ya probably look like one.:p
Ahhhhh... but God DID use a mule to speak to Balaam :D

That's because I'm married to an Italian and consume a lot of olive oil that leaks though my pores.

Then why go through Jesus?
:D Praying through is different to praying to. He's my eternal High-priest as we follow His advise, "Pray to the Father in my name".

Well, we definitely see this differently because I don't see this "last sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins" in a literalistic manner. But if used symbolically, it may. I can explain if you want me to.
Please do... always interested in what you have to share.

See above. Plus if that angel is given that power by God, then why not? To me, that seems more logical than having God sacrificed to God.
:D Sometimes God doesn't want to fit into our logic.

Gideon's 300 wasn't logical in man's perspective at the moment it happened. Retrospect, one can understand.

Of course, we are talking theologically and thus, like the sages of Jewish thought, it is wonderful to agree to disagree--even vehemently as we leave as brothers when we are finished arguing. :D

I find it logical for God to come as human flesh on multiple points (in retrospect--illogical at the beginning). Certainly His ways are higher than our ways and His thought way beyond ours.

Jesus said that that only the thief doesn't enter into the gate of sheep (if we take the position that we are the sheep of His pasture). God gave the keys to the world to mankind. To enter into the world by any other method is to make Him a liar... thus The Word came as flesh.

PS... just saw a wonderful true story movie on youtube called "Have a little faith" -- an inspiring movie about a Jewish Rabbi, a pastor and a Jewish reporter.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Someone said "Metis is a lousy shot".
I have three kids to prove otherwise.

Praying through is different to praying to. He's my eternal High-priest as we follow His advise, "Pray to the Father in my name".
But notice what you said above, namely that you are praying through Jesus. Hey, you're maybe more Catholic than you thought.:D

BTW, do you believe in "the communion of saints", both living and dead? Can the living pray for the dead? the dead for the living? curious.

God gave the keys to the world to mankind. To enter into the world by any other method is to make Him a liar... thus The Word came as flesh.
I never have viewed the scriptures-- any scriptures-- as being inerrant. There are way too many "variations" within many of the scriptural narratives for me to believe that.

To me, the scriptures tend to reflect that values and mores of the culture they developed in, and to the extent they may be divinely inspired I simply cannot say as it's well beyond my pay-grade.

Also, the idea that one man-god in one area of the world at one specific point in time has to be believed in in order to be "saved" is quite problematic for me to accept. Instead, my view tends to be more "panoramic", feeling that the "inspiration" of compassion and justice are teachings found in many religions and humanistic teachings over maybe millions of years, and this tells me that there's something else at stake here that goes well beyond one god-man.

PS... just saw a wonderful true story movie on youtube called "Have a little faith" -- an inspiring movie about a Jewish Rabbi, a pastor and a Jewish reporter.
Saw it and liked it.

Please do... always interested in what you have to share.
I'll cover this in a follow-up post shortly, so stay tuned! :D
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Well, we definitely see this differently because I don't see this "last sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins" in a literalistic manner. But if used symbolically, it may. I can explain if you want me to.

As I mentioned before, how can God be sacrificed to God, especially since there's no precedent for this in the Tanakh? Secondly, how can a man be sacrificed to please God since human sacrifices were and are forbidden? Thirdly, the sacrifice procedures are spelled out in some detain in Torah, but they certainly weren't followed in Jesus' crucifixion. IOW, nothing about this makes sense at the literalistic level, but symbolically, it may.

Paul was writing his first letters almost two decades after Jesus was executed, and "the Way" was having difficulty being accepted to the point whereas they were being kicked out of synagogues and quite possibly the Temple itself.

With this being the possible scenario, regular animal/grain sacrifices may not have been allowed for this group, especially since many of them were likely "God-Fearers" (gentiles), thus not Jews.

Along comes Paul with his actually quite brilliant mind, and he draws a parallel: Jesus was "the final sacrifice" that "forgives sins", much like the scape-goat takes on the sins of the community in Torah. IOW, he's basically saying not to lose any sleep over the fact that they're not able to perform sacrifices at the Temple because Jesus already did it for them on his own with the Father's blessing.

Now, when we add the above to Jesus' statement that he came to serve, not to be served, then we need to look at what he served up. When I read the Sermon On the Mount and the Parable of the Sheep & Goats, the overwhelming emphasis is on compassion and justice-- not on p.c. beliefs nor endless prayers. Yes, faith is #1, no doubt, but then Jesus goes well beyond that to the point whereas "when you do it to the least of these my children, you do it unto me" (Matthew 25-- paraphrased from memory-- as shotty as that is).

IMO, Jesus was a great teacher, which is why I can attend my wife's church without reservation or feeling hypocritical, especially since her church is not judgmental towards other churches or religions (yes, it used to be). It teaches what it believes is correct, while at the same time allowing significant freedom of belief. Hey, if they can accept me and allow me to get involved, they can accept pretty much anybody!

I'll be interested in your comments, but be gentile as I do bruise easily. :)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I have three kids to prove otherwise.
You are a wise man.

But notice what you said above, namely that you are praying through Jesus. Hey, you're maybe more Catholic than you thought.:D
LOL - ABSOLUTELY - I have enjoyed quite a few Catholic services. There is only ONE Holy apostolic universal church... we are just a different part of the whole body.

BTW, do you believe in "the communion of saints", both living and dead? Can the living pray for the dead? the dead for the living? curious.
Yes, there is a communion. There is a cloud of witnesses.

Can the living pray for the dead? What on earth for. :D
Can those who have departed pray for the living? I certainly don't see why not!

I never have viewed the scriptures-- any scriptures-- as being inerrant. There are way too many "variations" within many of the scriptural narratives for me to believe that.

God created the Heavens and the earth... I find that quite inerrant ;)

To me, the scriptures tend to reflect that values and mores of the culture they developed in, and to the extent they may be divinely inspired I simply cannot say as it's well beyond my pay-grade.
I took the position that it either is or isn't. (Can't be both). So I establish my postulate that it was true and then said "Now, I will test the sucker and i will find out whether it is or isn't".

I have found that YHWH indeed is our Healer, our Peace giver, our Provider, our Sanctifier and our Shepherd--the All Sufficient One.

Also, the idea that one man-god in one area of the world at one specific point in time has to be believed in in order to be "saved" is quite problematic for me to accept. Instead, my view tends to be more "panoramic", feeling that the "inspiration" of compassion and justice are teachings found in many religions and humanistic teachings over maybe millions of years, and this tells me that there's something else at stake here that goes well beyond one god-man.
OK, but I don't find them contrary. I think God is trying to reach everyone so there is truth in all religions but, for me, I have decided that salvation is delineated in Jewish scriptures with greater exactness.

I'll cover this in a follow-up post shortly, so stay tuned! :D
looking forward to it, my friend (if I can take that liberty)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Can the living pray for the dead? What on earth for.
Actually I didn't word that correctly. What I meant to say is do you believe that the living can pray through the dead in heaven to God? IOW, if I can ask you to pray for me (I need it!), can you ask someone who's in heaven to pray for you? Yes, understood that you could do that directly, but what I'm asking is can the dead help you in your prayers, much like you say Jesus can?

There is only ONE Holy apostolic universal church... we are just a different part of the whole body.
Frankly, sorta hard to believe that this is case. When I look at Christianity, "ONE" is not the word that comes to mind.

I took the position that it either is or isn't. (Can't be both).
But it can. For example, the Tanakh uses narratives, language, and symbolism that are native to eretz Israel, so there's no doubt there's a cultural infusion into the texts. Does this mean or imply that the books can't be divinely inspired? Of course not.

Therefore, why does one have to go to the extreme of denying cultural infusion or somehow feel that this negates any possibility of divine inspiration?

OK, but I don't find them contrary. I think God is trying to reach everyone so there is truth in all religions but, for me, I have decided that salvation is delineated in Jewish scriptures with greater exactness.
So, you're not taking the "my way or the highway" position? Oh, you're in so much t-r-o-u-b-l-e. :eek:
 
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