Could Christianity and Islam ever reach a consensus?

[Hawkins]

Could Christianity and Islam ever reach a consensus in regards to Jesus' identity? If no, which of the two religions is more likely to disappear first? If yes, which of the two religions do you think should and will make the bigger compromise? Will Christians accept Jesus as a divine prophet? Will Muslims adopt the concept of Trinity? Will they decide to change Jesus' status into both a prophet and The Son Of God to incorporate both beliefs?

It's more about which version of salvation is valid. If one is righteous when measured by an older version of covenant, he doesn't need the New Covenant brought about by Jesus. If one is not saved by an older version of covenant, he needs the New Covenant in order to be saved. Christians will not accept Muslin in the worrying that if the incorrect gospel is breached, no one will be able to be saved. Christians may adapt only if the issue doesn't concern the eternal consequences of human souls.

By speculation, modern humans (those in the western world at least) won't be able to abide by laws specified in the Bible, only God's grace through Jesus Christ can save them. To them, only Christianity can save! That's the point!

To put it another way, if salvation is out of concern you can choose whatever religions you wish to, they don't matter. If however salvation is a concern, one needs to choose a religion which provides a reasonable and achievable solution as the salvation. That's why Christianity is the way to go!

 

[Muslim-UK]

Rather or not in the Aramaic Language he is called that, does not change the fact that Allah has no Son. For a Christian to believe in him knowing this, they would no longer be Christians, but rather “ians without Christ.

Be consistent and show me where Moses or Abraham pbut in the Torah taught God is a son, a Holy Spirit and the three are One

Muslim-UK said: Call Him what you like, but there is Only One God who created the Universe and everything within it.

I agree with you 100% - that God is One and the only One.

The Holy Spirit was not a Father until he had a Son

I thought Holy Spirit was God from God?

The Holy Spirit is the Father and the Son, because the Son was conceived by the Holy Spirit

Sounds like Polytheism. Is the Holy Spirit husband to Mary, mother of Jesus pbuh?

The Holy Spirit draws you to Christ, and Christ reveals who the Father is.

All the Prophets in the Torah explained who God was and showed the people how to gain everlasting life.

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I agree, God alone guides people to accept his Prophets, Jesus pbuh in this case, and those who follow the Prophet will find Jesus pbuh vouching for them on Judgement Day. He was very specific on how to obtain salvation:

Worship God alone, and keep Torah commandments, ensuring your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees and Scribes. No doubt women would have followed his Mother, covering the hair and dressing modestly.

John 14:6 - Christ saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And to prove the above:

1) He is the way.
2) He is the truth.
3) He is the life.
4) No one comes to the Father except through him.

The 'Way', the 'Truth' and the 'Life' are all metaphors for Torah or being Torah observant:

I am the way. To his Disciples; the Old Testament Jew, the way was the Torah. The only way to God was through the law. Psalms 119:1 says, “Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the LAW of the LORD.” Psalms 32:8 says, “I will instruct you and show you the way to go; with My eye on you, I will give counsel.” Jesus' followers were also very familiar with Exodus 18:20”And you shall teach them the statutes and the laws, and show them the way in which they must walk and the work they must do.” For the Jews, that way was the law and the prophets. In Jewish tradition, the way to find the path to God was to study the Torah.

I am the truth. To the Torah Jew, the truth was the Torah. Psalms 119:142 says, “Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your law is truth.” Verse 151 says “You are near, Lord, and all Your commands are truth.” The Jews understood, that truth was the law and the prophets. Absolute truth could only be found in God and revealed in the Law and the Prophets. God was seen as the God of Truth, and the Torah was said to be His thoughts and the revelation of His purpose in the creation of the universe, thereby revealing absolute truth. All “truth” was to be compared against the Truth revealed in the Law and the prophets. The disciples had been taught from childhood that if something did not line up with the truth of scripture, then it was not true.

I am the life. To the Torah Jew, the life was the Torah. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, Moses gives the Israelites a choice to make. They could choose life and prosperity, or they could choose death and adversity. If they chose life, they would have to walk in God's ways, and keep his Law, because God is their life. If they chose death, they were free to ignore God's ways and laws. Moses gave them this advice, choose life. For the Israelite, to follow the law was to choose life. The Torah was life. The disciples had been taught this from childhood.

No one comes to the Father except through Me. To the Old Testament Jew, the only way to God was through the Law. The Law made it possible for the Israelites to approach God. The sacrifices and rituals allowed them to present themselves before God and to be accepted by him. Those who tried to approach God without following the Law usually ended up dead, (Nadab and Abihu in Leviticus 10). All Israelites knew that the only way to God was through the Law.

Four radical, clear cut statements from the lips of Jesus pbuh. Remember he was very clear about the Torah:

Sermon on the Mount; Matthew 5:
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 10:22 - All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Follow and obey the Prophet, just like the previous Prophets.

2 John 1:9 - Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Confirms the above.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Muslim-UK said: Correct he robbed caravans from the same people who seized the homes and property of the believers, from the same people who imposed a economic blockade to starve and isolate the Muslims.

He sounds like Peter Pan to me, but the fact that he kept 20% of stolen property, meant that it was never his property to begin with, regardless of what reason he had for doing it. Nor did he testify that Allah told him to do this.

Where does it say 20% was kept by him? The disrupted the caravans to stop the war capabilities of the Quresh and get compensated for their own wealth and property tat had been seized.

Any war booty collected by the Prophet pbuh was distributed amongst the poor.

According to Christians, Jesus pbuh commanded similar things in the Torah:

Jeremiah 30:16 'Therefore all who devour you will be devoured; And all your adversaries, every one of them, will go into captivity; And those who plunder you will be for plunder, And all who prey upon you I will give for prey.

Isaiah 42:22 But this is a people plundered and despoiled; All of them are trapped in caves, Or are hidden away in prisons; They have become a prey with none to deliver them, And a spoil, with none to say, "Give them back!"

2 Kings 3:23 Then they said, "This is blood; the kings have surely fought together, and they have slain one another. Now therefore, Moab, to the spoil!"

Nahum 2:9 Plunder the silver! Plunder the gold! For there is no limit to the treasure-- Wealth from every kind of desirable object.

Muslim-UK said: You learn from discredited sources, but that's a matter for you and your soul.

There are many reasons why anyone with questions to Muhammad's Life -should research these things for themselves.
As I said before: For myself, I know more than I want or need to know

God guides whom He wills. People who study from authentic sources often revert to Islam.

Me in my soul are not separate from each other – we are all living souls.

Death separates body from soul. The body you have can not stand in the presence of God, no one's can, which is why we have improved bodies before entering Heaven

Muslim-UK said: Actually there are Seven Heavens, Jesus pbuh is with John the Baptist pbuh in the Second Heaven.
In the Word of God (Bible) it says that there are only 3 heavens. If it says in the Koran that John the Baptist was in the 2nd heaven – it would mean that he is in what we call “outer space” or with the planets and stars

I would love for you to explain the Seven Heavens, that would be very interesting to me.

Judaism teaches 7 Heavens too:

Why Do We Wrap the Tefillin Straps 7 Times Around the Arm?

Between death and the First Heaven is Hades, or the interspace, a vast plain where people await in their graves.
The lowest Heaven is where most people strive to enter, and is the biggest blessing any of us can hope to obtain, but you will not be in the presence of the Prophets of God here, rather you have to be as pious as possible, hoping to enter the highest level of Heaven as possible. Prophets and GOD Himself are to be found in the 7th Heaven. There 500 years of time travel between one heaven to the next and you can in the afterlife strive and work your way up through the Heavens, as we have eternity to look forward to.

Muslim-UK said: How would Elijah have known what God had in store for him when he wrote the letter?

The fact that Elijah wrote the letter was not the point. The point was: that he wrote the letter 8-10 years later after he was supposedly taken by a whirlwind to heaven

I'll leave that for a practising Jew to answer.

Muslim-UK said: Where's Saul's proof for Enoch's death?

Hebrews 11:13 -These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (Hebrews 11:4-13) Talking about Enoch and some others)
Hebrews 9:27 -

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Ok it's Saul's opinion. James and Peter thought him a false teacher.

Revelation 20: 5-7 - But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.

I have no clue what this means. Islam teaches Jesus pbuh returns to kill the Dajjal, Anti Christ and reigns on Earth for some 40 years, in which time he marries, has children and eventually dies and is buried. The Torah says these things about the Messiah too.

Revelation 20:12-14 - And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (the graves) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell *the graves) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Looks like works is key for salvation. Judaism teaches Judgement happens after death, and their is no Judgement Day, but Islam makes clear you are Judged in the grave, (first Resurrection) and then Resurrected again in your body on Judgement Day along with the rest of mankind.

Muslim-UK said: He doesn't have a biological father, we now he regarded God as his spiritual father, after all we are ALL children of God.

God's word makes it clear:
John 3:6 - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
We may have all been given the breath of life (the spirit that makes us a living soul), but we are not all children of God.

I agree, those who obey God are his spiritual children. Those who reject his Prophets will face rejection in the hereafter.

Muslim-UK said: Funny that you, as a man worshipping Christian should say that.

I did not mean it personally to you, and I apologize if it appeared that way. What I was saying is that if we believe that God created Adam – to believe that Adam was a greater god than Christ, we would believe in the creation more than the Creator. (This would make anyone who believed in the creation more than the creator have a reprobate mind.

In Islam Jesus pbuh is a creation of God, no different to Adam pbuh, both were the word of God. He said, 'BE' and they were.

Just because Christ came in the Flesh during our life-time doesn't mean that he did not exist before the world began. Many scriptures tell you this is so.

There's no hint of a pre-existing Jesus pbuh in the genealogies given in Mathew or Luke.

Muslim-UK said: The world of difference is the original Arabic remains unchanged. You can use a decent Arabic Lexicon for contentious words along with several translations:

The Hebrew Torah & the Prophets (Tanach) has also been unchanged in the same manner, however, these things were written before Christ came. The words written in Hebrew, can also mean ten different things that pertain to it. When translated, there are punctuation and paragraphs given to it to make it easier for them that do not know Hebrew to read it.

The Dead Sea Scrolls prove there were differing Torahs. You also have little idea who wrote much of the Bible.

The New Testament or New Covenant (because Christ was the Mediator of it), came when he did and was written during and afterwards by men that were inspired by our Father in the heavens, Unfortunately, man in his infinite wisdom, thought to make some words more simple to understand. This in turn sometimes has changed the word, which can also change the meaning. If someone has studied these things out, they know where these words, & etc are. One thing that has not been changed is God's message

What New Covenant? Jesus pbuh lived under the Law of Moses pbuh and made clear nothing was to change, not even a single jot.

Muslim-UK said: Any Historian will tell you, the older the more reliable, the more witnesses, the better. People who think 4th Century Greek Philosophers honoured a First Century Jewish Prophet and preserved his message are deluding themselves.

That's just it, Historians will tell you. If Muhammed wrote the Quran, he had no one to back him up, but he himself. At least the bible with its different authors back each other up. The Bible also has Historians to tell you how reliable it is.

You must be referring to Christian Historians.

Muslim-UK said: Christianity is the odd one out of the 3 Abrahamic Religions. God does not have a son in Judaism or Islam. This alien concept comes from the Pagan West.

In Judaism, they are looking for the Messiah to come, they do not know that he has already came and that he will come again. They are unaware due to their blindness, that Christ redeemed them from the law...but God has given them some promises that they would see if they turn to him.

Where did Jesus pbuh explain he was the expected Messiah?

 

[Muffled]

Daniel 7:8, is not about Islam nor about Muhammad, this of Daniel 7:8, is about the soon coming of the tribulation. And the Antichrist speaking great words of the Almighty God. Rev 13:5, and in
2 These 2:3-10, and in Isaiah 14:12-17

This is all about Satan, when he comes into the world masquerading to impersonate by deception to deceive the whole world into believing that he is God.
( Christ Jesus )

I believe your answer to be illogical. I will give you a shot at using logic but I am not sure you know how.

 

[Muffled]

Muslim UK said "Be consistent and show me where Moses or Abraham pbut in the Torah taught God is a son, a Holy Spirit and the three are One"

I believe this is a red Herring and the null hypothesis. You have to show why it would be necessary for them to say it.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I believe your answer to be illogical. I will give you a shot at using logic but I am not sure you know how.

Well you sure do not know how to use logic yourself. So how are you to show
someone logic when you, yourself have no logic.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Muslim UK said "Be consistent and show me where Moses or Abraham pbut in the Torah taught God is a son, a Holy Spirit and the three are One"

I believe this is a red Herring and the null hypothesis. You have to show why it would be necessary for them to say it.

Why red herring? Jews reject the notion of God being triune and sharing His throne with 2 others, whereas you say He has always been Three. Other than the Catholic Church, who else taught this concept before the Second Century?

 

[LuisDantas]

The Trinity doctrine implies that there are no two "others" as such, and therefore no sharing.

Instead, there would be a sole deity which happens to like to manifest itself in three distinct aspects.

No one has to take that as truth, of course. But it is not like they are proposing three independent deities.

 

[Muslim-UK]

The Trinity doctrine implies that there are no two "others" as such, and therefore no sharing.

Instead, there would be a sole deity which happens to like to manifest itself in three distinct aspects.

No one has to take that as truth, of course. But it is not like they are proposing three independent deities.

If there is no sharing, then why do Christians say, Jesus pbuh was not the one who ordered the massacres in the OT, they say that was the Father and had nothing to do with Jesus pbuh.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Why red herring? Jews reject the notion of God being triune and sharing His throne with 2 others, whereas you say He has always been Three. Other than the Catholic Church, who else taught this concept before the Second Century?

If I may say, you said that the Jews rejected the notion of God being triune and sharing his throne with 2 others.

You do know those that followed Christ, and the 12 disciples were Jews themselves.
You do know it is written, they are Not all Israel, which are of Israel.
This means that there are two Jews in Israel, one a true Jew and the other a false Jew.So they are not all of Israel, which are of Israel.
There were Jews that did know who Christ Jesus was and became his followers and his 12 disciples.
And there are those Jews who stood against Christ Jesus and crucified him and there are those Jews that stood with Christ Jesus to the very end, to where the other Jews had Christ Jesus crucified.

 

[LuisDantas]

If there is no sharing, then why do Christians say, Jesus pbuh was not the one who ordered the massacres in the OT, they say that was the Father and had nothing to do with Jesus pbuh.

I guess you would have to ask a Christian whether they say such things and why.

As I understand it, the typical (there are myriad) Christian stance on the matter is that Jesus _is_ God, yet he developed a taste for compassion since the OT and felt the need to revise the terms of his alliance with people. Hence the often-named "New Alliance". Whether the Christian God _became_ a trinity or was always so is a matter of some debate (pointless and inconsequential debate IMO, but debate nonetheless).

I am fairly certain that few if any Christians would agree with the claim that God the Father had nothing to do with Jesus, in any case.

 

[metis]

And there are those Jews who stood against Christ Jesus and crucified him and there are those Jews that stood with Christ Jesus to the very end, to where the other Jews had Christ Jesus crucified.

Jews did not crucify Jesus-- the Romans did.

 

[Muslim-UK]

I guess you would have to ask a Christian whether they say such things and why.

They don't like to discuss such things as it just proves they worship multiple gods.

 

[Muslim-UK]

If I may say, you said that the Jews rejected the notion of God being triune and sharing his throne with 2 others.

You do know those that followed Christ, and the 12 disciples were Jews themselves.
You do know it is written, they are Not all Israel, which are of Israel.
This means that there are two Jews in Israel, one a true Jew and the other a false Jew.So they are not all of Israel, which are of Israel.
There were Jews that did know who Christ Jesus was and became his followers and his 12 disciples.
And there are those Jews who stood against Christ Jesus and crucified him and there are those Jews that stood with Christ Jesus to the very end, to where the other Jews had Christ Jesus crucified.

Largely agree with your post, but on the 12 Disciples, I would say they had no clue about the concept of the Trinity.

 

[LuisDantas]

They don't like to discuss such things as it just proves they worship multiple gods.

With all due respect, what you are saying makes no sense.

 

[Lyndon]

Jesus never preached the Trinity, he never called himself God, either. That was all added later, a little bit by Paul, but mostly well after the Bible was written, so it is not scriptural.

 

[Lyndon]

With all due respect, what you are saying makes no sense.

Makes a lot more sense than what you have been writing!!

 

[Faithofchristian]

Jews did not crucify Jesus-- the Romans did.

It was those false Jews who stood against Christ Jesus that wanted him crucified and turned him over to The Governor of Rome. Who eventually had Christ Jesus crucified.But it was the false Jews who first wanted Jesus crucified.

But the false Jews seeing that they had no Authority to crucify anyone, So they took Jesus to Rome, To have Rome do their dirty work of having Jesus crucified.

 

[LuisDantas]

Makes a lot more sense than what you have been writing!!

I will give your opinion all due attention and worth, rest assured.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

If there is no sharing, then why do Christians say, Jesus pbuh was not the one who ordered the massacres in the OT, they say that was the Father and had nothing to do with Jesus pbuh.

Because they are ignorant Christians. Jesus is part of The Trinity. He agrees with The Father in everything and it has been that way since the beginning of time. Jesus is just as just in punishment as God as He was kind in behavior as human. He wanted to teach humans how they should behave because He already knew how to behave as God. Punishment belongs to God, not to us. That's why Jesus in human form preached kindness.