Curious George
Veteran Member
I never said you did not. After all, Tumah's opinion is a good one to respect. If he wants to hear it from Tumah, let him. I am pretty sure Tumah respects your opinion as well.As do I.
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I never said you did not. After all, Tumah's opinion is a good one to respect. If he wants to hear it from Tumah, let him. I am pretty sure Tumah respects your opinion as well.As do I.
That depends much on whether you are referring to scraps of manuscript or complete codex.Also, what's the oldest existent copy of the LXX dated to?
Ok, why would the MT make up a name like Washti?The Septuagint was deriving from a source in which Amminadab was the father of Esther , Not sure why the Septuagint would make up a specific name like that.
Abihail, here אביהיל AVIHaYiLExodus 6:23
And Aaron took him Elisheba, daughter of Amminadab, sister of Naashon, to wife
And Abihail the daughter of Eliab the son of Jesse
No its not. עמיאל means 'my nation, G-d'. אליעם means 'my G-d, nation'2 Samuel 11:3
Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam ( Eliab -Ελιαβ in Septuagnt )
1 Chronicles 3:5 (אֱלִיעָם = עַמִּיאֵל in reverse )
I don't even.Bathshua the daughter of Ammiel ( ALI OM OM ALI
Maybe you mean 'suffix'. But no. היל is the suffix of אביהיל and היל has no relation to חלן.Numbers 1:9
Eliab the son of Helon (חֵלֹן from חַיִל , prefix of אֲבִיהַיִל)
חיאל means "my life, G-d"Numbers 16:1
Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab
1 Kings 16:34 ( these built Jericho )
Sagub and Abiram, the sons of Hiel (חִיאֵל) (lengthening of חַיִל)
No, אביגיל means "my father, joy". אביהיל means perhaps 'my father, praise' or 'my father, bright'.'אֲבִיגַיִל' is a dialectic form of 'אֲבִיהַיִל'
- Abigail and Abihail
Yeah! And Na'amah was Solomon's wife, but also the daughter of Lemech, which means that David, Solomon, Moses, Aaron, Esther and Daniel all lived before Noah!Abigail (previous wife of Nabal)
1 Chronicle 3:1 - Daniel , son of David, with second wife Abigail
2 Samuel 3:3 - Chileab, son of David, wife second wife Abigail
' Kil'ab ' (כִּלְאָב) KL AB in the septuagint is 'Δαλουια' (Dalouia )
1 Samuel 25:3
Nabal; and the name of his wife Abigail of the House of Caleb
I can see why so much editing was involved, it seems David, Solomon, Moses, Aaron, Esther and Daniel were contemporaries.
I had in mind Esther specifically, as that would be more helpful for the other guy.That depends much on whether you are referring to scraps of manuscript or complete codex.
It would be interesting to see if any manuscripts still have the 15 changes that the Talmud records were made to the LXX.Relevant to this discussion is WikiL Septuagint: Christian use, particularly ...
In the Early Christian Church, the presumption that the Septuagint was translated by Jews before the era of Christ, and that the Septuagint at certain places gives itself more to a christological interpretation than 2nd-century Hebrew texts was taken as evidence that "Jews" had changed the Hebrew text in a way that made them less christological. For example, Irenaeus concerning Isaiah 7:14: The Septuagint clearly writes of a virgin (Greek παρθένος, bethulah in Hebrew) that shall conceive.,[46] while the word almah in the Hebrew text was, according to Irenaeus, at that time interpreted by Theodotion and Aquila (both proselytes of the Jewish faith) as a young woman that shall conceive. According to Irenaeus, the Ebionites used this to claim that Joseph was the (biological) father of Jesus. From Irenaeus' point of view that was pure heresy, facilitated by (late) anti-Christian alterations of the scripture in Hebrew, as evident by the older, pre-Christian, Septuagint.[47]
When Jerome undertook the revision of the Old Latin translations of the Septuagint, he checked the Septuagint against the Hebrew texts that were then available. He broke with church tradition and translated most of the Old Testament of his Vulgate from Hebrew rather than Greek. His choice was severely criticized by Augustine, his contemporary; a flood of still less moderate criticism came from those who regarded Jerome as a forger. While on the one hand he argued for the superiority of the Hebrew texts in correcting the Septuagint on both philological and theological grounds, on the other, in the context of accusations of heresy against him, Jerome would acknowledge the Septuagint texts as well.[48] With the passage of time, acceptance of Jerome's version gradually increased until it displaced the Old Latin translations of the Septuagint.[23]
Wiki: Septuagint: Manuscripts is also worth reviewing
"Made to" or "made in"?It would be interesting to see if any manuscripts still have the 15 changes that the Talmud records were made to the LXX.
Made in, I guess. The Talmud only discusses the translation of the Pentateuch. Rather it doesn't allow translation of other Books (which you may interpret as polemic against the available Greek translations of the time). Within that story it says that the translators incorporated 15 changes to the text for one reason or another and lists them. I once looked at the text available online and I recall that I only found a few of the changes."Made to" or "made in"?
(Sorry, I am far from a Talmud scholar.)
I'm not so familiar with the Christian translations. The ones that come up commonly are capitalizing messiah where no definite article is indicated. And translating some words like כארי as "dug" to call to mind Jesus being nailed to the cross rather than "like a lion" even though that's not quite how its spelled.I believe Christian translation also include interpretive punctuation in Hebrew scriptures that may influence the interpretation of the scripture.
Thanks for the link. While interesting in its own right, I'm not clear that it's relevant to this thread.Made in, I guess. The Talmud only discusses the translation of the Pentateuch. Rather it doesn't allow translation of other Books (which you may interpret as polemic against the available Greek translations of the time). Within that story it says that the translators incorporated 15 changes to the text for one reason or another and lists them. I once looked at the text available online and I recall that I only found a few of the changes.
Ok, why would the MT make up a name like Washti?
Esther is an interesting text, but a discussion of it would really take us pretty far afield.Ok, why would the MT make up a name like Washti?
I'm not sure how to answer this as you haven't proven that Vashni is Persian.וַשְׁתִּי - The Septuagint reads this as 'Astin'
וַשְׁנִי - Vashniy (Σανι - Sani ) appears in 1Ch 6:28 as the son of Samuel , brother of Abiah
So why would the son of Samuel, have a Persian name?
In 1 Samuel 8:2, Vashni is named 'יוֹאֵל' ( Yow'el ) or Ιωηλ
That is not near at all.They are no Greek or Persians records of a 'Vashti' in the Persian royal household, but the nearest name is 'Artystone'
Artastūnā, means 'Pillar of Arta ' so 'astūnā' (iš-du-na ) means Pillar , In Greek it is 'στώνη ( Stone ) , possibly from PIE *stoi-no , ( Stone )
...and 'stone' has a Germanic root. Greek word for stone is petros, hence the name Peter.I'm not sure how to answer this as you haven't proven that Vashni is Persian.
That is not near at all.
I'm not sure how to answer this as you haven't proven that Vashni is Persian.
That is not near at all.
Well, it does. Its the letter ב without a dot in the middle. But over the years, the Hebrew letter ו took the sound as well, although as you say, it originally was a "w". Which is why I've said Washti, I think twice already.'וַשְׁנִי' and 'וַשְׁתִּי'
The Hebrew language doesn't have a V,
Names don't follow regular grammatical rules. They're names not words. ופסי (Num. 13:14) and וניה (Ezra 10:36) are two other names that start with a "waw".'Waw' particle also means 'and' and usually occurs as a junction between words, which means, 'וַשְׁתִּי' is incomplete , there is a prefix missing.
That says sh'ti, not Seth, although you seem to have replaced the letter י with an apostraphe.'שְׁתִּ ( Seth )
Are you trying to find a Hebrew root for what is meant to be a Persian name? Because if you are, that's silly.שִׁית ( To put, apoint )
Nope, not related.Related to 'שָׁוַע' (cry out for help )
Here are all the associated words
Ishvah ישוה
Ishvi ישוי
Seth שת
Shaveh שוה
Sheth שת
Sheva שוא
Word 3 and 5 have nothing to do with the other 4 words. They're totally different roots and meanings. Its like comparing post and parched.
No its not. For one thing, they're of course two different people living hundreds of years apart.Beth-Sheba (בַּת־שֶׁבַע) is also written Bath-Sheva (בַּת־שֶׁוּעַ)
For another, there is no one identified as בת שוע, there's someone named שוע who is said to have had a daughter (בת) who married Judah.
And for another as you pointed out above, the letter ו is pronounced 'w' not 'v'. So the first name is pronounced 'Bath Sheva' " (the apostrophe at the end representing a voiced pharyngeal fricative), while the second one is pronounced "Bath Shuwa' "
And yes, I did notice that instead of writing the letter ו in בַּת־שֶׁוּעַ, you made a shuruk.
That's racist.Jews, being Anti-Persian by nature,
As I told you before, in the text, she's not given a choice to marry the king or not and the king doesn't know that she's Jewish until near the end. Besides, you should also prove that the Zoroastrian rule against intermarriage exist during that time.are unable to explain why a Jewess married a Zoroastrian King, when both Judaism and Zoroastrianism forbid marriage outside the religion.
I'm not so familiar with the Christian translations. The ones that come up commonly are capitalizing messiah where no definite article is indicated. And translating some words like כארי as "dug" to call to mind Jesus being nailed to the cross rather than "like a lion" even though that's not quite how its spelled.
Maybe the way they punctuate the division of the seventy weeks to indicate that the numbers should be added for a sum of seventy rather than remain broken up the way it is presented.
Are you upset because they were related? You keep asking questions intended to distinguish them. They are not the same. I don't think that anyone here claimed they were the same. Or are you just trying to figure out exactly how they are distinguished? I would think that how they differ could be a thread in and of itself.From: What is the Difference between the Old Testament, the Tanakh, and the Hebrew Bible?
What is the Difference between the Old Testament, the Tanakh, and the Hebrew Bible? by Amy-Jill Levine
"The term Old Testament, with its implication that there must be a corresponding New Testament, suggests to some that Judaism’s Bible and by extension Judaism are outdated and incomplete. Well-intended academics thus offered Hebrew Bible as a neutral alternative. However, the new language confuses more than it clarifies by erasing distinctions between the Christian Old Testament and the Jewish Tanakh. It is understandable if Christians think the Old Testament and the Tanakh are one and the same thing, but a closer look reveals important distinctions. For example, Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox Christian Old Testament canons include additional books, either written or preserved in Greek (Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Maccabees, etc.), that are not in the Jewish canon. And some Orthodox communions only use the Greek translation of the Hebrew (the Septuagint)—which varies in word choices and length from the Masoretic (Hebrew) Text. The Christian Old Testament and the Jewish Tanakh are also distinct from each other in terms of punctuation, canonical order, and emphases.
Jesus would have heard his Scriptures in Hebrew, perhaps accompanied by an Aramaic paraphrase (targum). However, New Testament quotations from the Hebrew Bible usually follow the Greek of the Septuagint. For example, Isa 7:14 (written circa 700 B.C.E.) describes a pregnant young woman (Hebrew ’almah). The Greek translates ’almah as parthenos, which came to mean virgin(as in the Parthenon), and Matt 1:23, following the Greek, does the same. Ps 37:11 states, “the meek shall inherit the land” (Hebrew, arets); the Greek, echoed in Matt 5:5, shifts focus away from the land of Israel, and in this version “the meek … will inherit the earth.”
Because the consonantal Hebrew text lacked punctuation, phrase breaks could be variously inserted. The Hebrew of Isa 40:3predicts the return to Israel of the exiles in Babylon: “A voice cries out: ‘In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord.’” The Gospel of Mark repunctuates this same passage to introduce John the Baptist: “The voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of the Lord’” (Mark 1:3).
Interpretations of figures and images create yet another distinction between the (Christian) Old Testament and the (Jewish) Tanakh. For example, the Christian church understands Isaiah’s “suffering servant” (Isa 53:5-7) to be Jesus (Acts 8:3-36, John 19:34-37). In the synagogue, traditionally, the servant is Israel (see Isa 41:8, Isa 44:1, Isa 44:21, Isa 49:3); rabbinic sources also associate the servant with Moses, Rabbi Akiva, and a hidden Messiah who suffers from leprosy."
Differences in canonical order further create distinct interpretations. The Old Testament tucks Ruth between Judges and 1 Samuel; the book fits here chronologically, because Ruth is King David’s great-grandmother, and David is introduced in 1 Samuel. The Tanakh places Ruth in the Ketuvim (Writings), where her scroll (Hebrew, megillah) accompanies the Song of Songs, Lamentations, Qohelet (Ecclesiastes), and Esther. These scrolls are read, in full, on certain Jewish holidays; thus they have a more prominent place in the canon of Judaism than they do in the Christian canons.
Well, it does. Its the letter ב without a dot in the middle. But over the years, the Hebrew letter ו took the sound as well, although as you say, it originally was a "w". Which is why I've said Washti, I think twice already.
Names don't follow regular grammatical rules. They're names not words. ופסי (Num. 13:14) and וניה (Ezra 10:36) are two other names that start with a "waw".
That says sh'ti, not Seth, although you seem to have replaced the letter י with an apostraphe.
Are you trying to find a Hebrew root for what is meant to be a Persian name? Because if you are, that's silly.
Nope, not related.
You should also prove that the Zoroastrian rule against intermarriage exist during that time.
That's fine. But that doesn't mean you should be applying Hebrew grammatical rules to the name. Its simply not a Hebrew name. Actually, aside from one mention of Hadasah, Ezra and Jeconiah, there isn't a single Hebrew name in the text. Mordecai - if that's his real name - seems to be a contraction of the Aramaic word for either musk or myrrh. Esther is the Greek Astarte. If the two major players aren't given a Hebrew name, why would you think Vashti is?Go ahead and find 'Washti' in any Persian or Greek record, all the consorts of the Persian monarchs are documented.
Darius I - Atossa and Artystone
Xerxex I - Amestris
Artaxerxes - Damaspia
Looking through all the Persian Kings, they don't appear to be any fictional Jewish women
as wives.
Sure I can. Immediately after they returned from exile (the story of Esther takes place during the time between the destruction of the first Temple and the return to Israel), someone lets Ezra know that the people intermarried and Ezra has a fit (see Ezra 9-10). If it was permissible, he shouldn't have had anything to complain about.You can't prove Jewish rule against intermarriage existed during that time either and your 'Talmudic religion' did not exist during this time either, none of the Books of the Old Testament weren't even written either.
Well, that's a step better than your previous conspiracy theories.It is more likely the Book of Esther was originally a Zoroastrian romance.
That's fine. But that doesn't mean you should be applying Hebrew grammatical rules to the name. Its simply not a Hebrew name. Actually, aside from one mention of Hadasah, Ezra and Jeconiah, there isn't a single Hebrew name in the text. Mordecai - if that's his real name - seems to be a contraction of the Aramaic word for either musk or myrrh. Esther is the Greek Astarte. If the two major players aren't given a Hebrew name, why would you think Vashti is?
Sure I can. Immediately after they returned from exile (the story of Esther takes place during the time between the destruction of the first Temple and the return to Israel), someone lets Ezra know that the people intermarried and Ezra has a fit (see Ezra 9-10). If it was permissible, he shouldn't have had anything to complain about.
Well, that's a step better than your previous conspiracy theories.