Is Jesus God?

[TrueBeliever37]

Since you believe that the Father "IS" the Holy Spirit, what is your view of this verse?

Matthew 28:19 (ESV Strong's) 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Jesus made clear distinction between the Father and Holy Spirit, He mentioned them both.

This verse has to be in harmony with the other accounts of the very same event recorded by Mark and Luke. Luke's account says that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47)

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are titles. When you use the name the Apostles used in baptism, then you are doing what this verse tells you to do.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Whom do you believe is to come back for the church, God or Jesus?

Well, I believe that the Messiah was YHWH manifest in the flesh. God was dwelling in the fleshly body of the Messiah. Once the Messiah was resurrected, the body was no longer flesh, but a glorified spiritual body. When the Messiah returns for the church, it is God coming for the church.

 

[JPK]

This cite gnosticteachings.org explains how to Christify yourself through Christic Initiation and as an end result through a very long work become a Resurrected Master like Jesus is.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

So are you saying they are each one God individually or collectively?
If individually they are each one God, that would mean 3 Gods.
If collectively they are one God, that would mean each one would only be part of the one God. (But you have already said this wasn't the case.)

But yet, you said above that collectively they are God. If it takes all 3 collectively to be the one God, then no one of them alone would be God.

What is your belief of humans, are we just a soul, or, are we made up of spirit, soul and body? I believe we are spirit, soul and body, all 3 make up one person.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (ESV Strong's) 23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

This verse has to be in harmony with the other accounts of the very same event recorded by Mark and Luke. Luke's account says that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47)

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are titles. When you use the name the Apostles used in baptism, then you are doing what this verse tells you to do.

Exactly, and the name they used for the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was Jesus.

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are titles.

Titles given to one person, or titles of 3 separate persons?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

What is your belief of humans, are we just a soul, or, are we made up of spirit, soul and body? I believe we are spirit, soul and body, all 3 make up one person.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (ESV Strong's) 23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

View attachment 18543

I must admit I am really confused about what you are trying to prove. I don't believe in the Trinity. I thought you did and were trying to prove that the Trinity was one God. But then you included diagrams with your post #2284 proving that the Trinity is 3 Gods.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I must admit I am really confused about what you are trying to prove. I don't believe in the Trinity. I thought you did and were trying to prove that the Trinity was one God. But then you included diagrams with your post #2284 proving that the Trinity is 3 Gods.

Where in the diagram do you see three Gods? I didn't think the "Proof Trinitarians believe in three Gods" would throw you, but I guess it did. If you look at the diagram, it says, "Father, is by nature God", same with the Son and Holy Spirit. What it doesn't say is, 'Father, is by nature A God', same with the Son and Holy Spirit. There is only one God.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

View attachment 18550

Where in the diagram do you see three Gods? I didn't think the "Proof Trinitarians believe in three Gods" would throw you, but I guess it did. If you look at the diagram, it says, "Father, is by nature God", same with the Son and Holy Spirit. What it doesn't say is, 'Father, is by nature A God', same with the Son and Holy Spirit. There is only one God.

Are John, Jim and Bill one human? - No while: Are Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one God? - you say yes
Are John, Jim, and Bill three humans? - yes while: Are Father, Son, and Holy Ghost three Gods? - you say No

Notice the chart shows left side being same as right side - But your answers you give are opposite.

Also in a previous post you said the Son emptied himself and became a human. So the Son would be by nature man. The diagram can't be accurate regarding the Son if he is a man?

This is what always happens when someone takes the Trinitarian viewpoint - they end up having contradictions. Trinitarians have to flip flop back and forth between the three persons being God individually, and being God collectively.

Even in your example you gave regarding One United States Military, I think you ended up agreeing that the One United States Military consisted of many men. But any one man is not the whole United States Military by himself.
So when you say the One God consists of 3 persons, how can any 1 person be God by himself? (But you are not about to say that each one is just a part of God.)

 

[moorea944]

View attachment 18550

Where in the diagram do you see three Gods? I didn't think the "Proof Trinitarians believe in three Gods" would throw you, but I guess it did. If you look at the diagram, it says, "Father, is by nature God", same with the Son and Holy Spirit. What it doesn't say is, 'Father, is by nature A God', same with the Son and Holy Spirit. There is only one God.

Scripture knows nothing of a trinune God. Your making our Creator into one.

 

[Muffled]

Tell me what in particular you disagree with and would like more evidence for. While you are at it please provide your scripture that refutes it.

Can you not see that the son in this verse is also going to be the Mighty God and Everlasting Father? These are titles for him, not another person. Really read it, and pay attention to what it actually says.

You talk about no evidence. Where is one (just one) scripture where any of the inspired writers ever mentioned the Trinity or a Triune God or three persons in the Godhead?

Now here is some proof God is not a Trinity. John 4:24 - God is a Spirit. Ephesians 4:4 - There is one Spirit. So how can there be 3 distinct persons that are each totally and completely God and yet only be one? You say God is a Trinity, while John says God is a Spirit - I think I know who I should believe.

I believe it was this statement of yours: There is no Trinity

John 14.

I believe you are correct that God is not a trinity, however it is true that the Trinity is God.

 

[Muffled]

John also says "God is light" and "God is love." Which one is He really? Spirit? Light? Or love? Or do you believe it possible for God to be more than one thing? Maybe these passages aren't even saying what God is (in terms of defining Him). Maybe they are just describing His many attributes. Could He not have even more attributes, things John perhaps neglected to mention?

(By the way, I am not arguing that God is a Trinity, because I don't believe He is.)

I believe I am enjoying your trinity of attributes but I am sure that there are more like God is just. Notice that one may not use reverse logic ie love is not God, light is not God and a spirit is not God. I can vouch for that last one because I am a spirit in a body and I am not God.

BTW: Just because you believe something doesn't mean it is true.

 

[Katzpur]

I believe I am enjoying your trinity of attributes but I am sure that there are more like God is just. Notice that one may not use reverse logic ie love is not God, light is not God and a spirit is not God.

I totally agree with that. God is many things beyond those specifically named in the Bible.

BTW: Just because you believe something doesn't mean it is true.

Not sure why you felt it worthwhile to throw that in, but I agree with you there, too. A lot of people believe a lot of things that aren't true.

 

[Shiranui117]

But, the scriptures also teach that there is only one God. So somehow you have to reconcile all these things. There should be harmony in the scriptures, and they don't contradict each other when you get it right. (However there are places where translators have introduced errors. )

I have used scriptures to show in other posts that the Father is the Holy Spirit. (Mary was with child of the Holy Spirit) So when the Messiah talks about his Father which person does he mean? Does he have 2 Fathers? The Trinitarian viewpoint is not taught or mentioned by any inspired writer in the scriptures. When someone takes the position that God is a Trinity, they can't even answer simple questions without getting tied up in knots. They have to contradict themselves, although they won't usually admit it. And they end up saying ridiculous things, like the Messiah is 100% God and 100% man.

I don't want to give out a lot of personal information. But, I don't attend a so called mainstream denomination. I said Apostolic, because we believe what the apostles taught.

So to whom was Jesus praying in the garden, saying "Take this cup away from me"? Was He talking to Himself? Who gave witness to Jesus as He came out of the waters of the Jordan? Did Jesus temporarily disembody His voice from His body and talk from Heaven?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

So to whom was Jesus praying in the garden, saying "Take this cup away from me"? Was He talking to Himself? Who gave witness to Jesus as He came out of the waters of the Jordan? Did Jesus temporarily disembody His voice from His body and talk from Heaven?

No flesh would want to suffer as the Messiah was going to suffer. The flesh was crying out to the eternal Spirit. God said his Spirit fills the heavens and the earth, so he can easily speak from heaven.

The distinction between the Son and the Father, is flesh and Spirit. But the Messiah was both. YHWH came down and dwelt in a fleshly body.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I believe it was this statement of yours: There is no Trinity

John 14.

I believe you are correct that God is not a trinity, however it is true that the Trinity is God.

John 14: proves my point - they asked him to show them the Father - what did he say? - Have I been with you all this time and you still don't know me? If you have seen me you have seen the Father. The messiah was both the Father and the son.

Your last statement makes no sense. If the Trinity is God, then God would be the Trinity. Also, still no scripture to back it up.

 

[Shiranui117]

No flesh would want to suffer as the Messiah was going to suffer. The flesh was crying out to the eternal Spirit. God said his Spirit fills the heavens and the earth, so he can easily speak from heaven.

The distinction between the Son and the Father, is flesh and Spirit. But the Messiah was both. YHWH came down and dwelt in a fleshly body.

You say that the Messiah was both flesh and Spirit. And yet you have Jesus' humanity crying out to His Divinity. This would mean that there were two people within Jesus--one human, and one Divine. If this is true, then can we truly affirm that "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14), rather than saying that the Word possessed a man?

John 14: proves my point - they asked him to show them the Father - what did he say? - Have I been with you all this time and you still don't know me? If you have seen me you have seen the Father. The messiah was both the Father and the son.

Your last statement makes no sense. If the Trinity is God, then God would be the Trinity. Also, still no scripture to back it up.

I would interpret this differently. Jesus is the Image of the Invisible God (Colossians 1:15). In addition, when God created man, He said "Let US create man in OUR image" (Genesis 1:26). To whom was the Father speaking? Was He speaking to Himself? Why, then, would He have used the plural? But rather, we see that He was speaking to one like Him, Who bore the same image as Him. So therefore, we can conclude that the Son is God as the Father is God, sharing the same Divine Nature (John 1:1), and yet they are two distinct Persons.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

So to whom was Jesus praying in the garden, saying "Take this cup away from me"? Was He talking to Himself? Who gave witness to Jesus as He came out of the waters of the Jordan? Did Jesus temporarily disembody His voice from His body and talk from Heaven?

I gave my answer to this in another post. But I would like you to explain this from your Trinitarian viewpoint also.

1. If the Son is God as you say, why is he praying to anyone to begin with?

2. If there is only One God, and the Son is God, is he talking to himself?

3. If the Son is God, how could he die, since God is eternal? How could he be tempted, since God can't be tempted?

4. If you have one person that is God talking to another person that is God, how is that not more than one God?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

You say that the Messiah was both flesh and Spirit. And yet you have Jesus' humanity crying out to His Divinity. This would mean that there were two people within Jesus--one human, and one Divine. If this is true, then can we truly affirm that "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14), rather than saying that the Word possessed a man?


I would interpret this differently. Jesus is the Image of the Invisible God (Colossians 1:15). In addition, when God created man, He said "Let US create man in OUR image" (Genesis 1:26). To whom was the Father speaking? Was He speaking to Himself? Why, then, would He have used the plural? But rather, we see that He was speaking to one like Him, Who bore the same image as Him. So therefore, we can conclude that the Son is God as the Father is God, sharing the same Divine Nature (John 1:1), and yet they are two distinct Persons.

It doesn't mean there are two people within the Messiah. It means that God was dwelling in a fleshly body. That fleshly body had weaknesses and was crying out to the Spirit for help. Proof Scriptures: II Corinthians 5:19 ...God was in Messiah ; John 14:10 the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

As far as John 1:1-14 - The word logos refers to the thoughts, idea, concept, or plan of God. It was the plan of God that was in the beginning. The plan was with God. The plan involved God. All things were made with this plan in mind. When the time was right, the part of Gods plan where he would take on flesh took place, and he dwelt among us. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning.

The invisible God knew what image he would take on before he created the world. The angels look like men when you see them. ( remember the verse - Be not forgetful to entertain strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.) God was talking to the heavenly host. He did the actual creating himself, singular - Genesis 1:27

What would you say to a Greek or Roman, if they said they believed in 20 or 30 different persons that had the same nature - God. And then they claimed to you they only believed in one God?

 

[Muffled]

I'm interested in hearing thoughts about (1) Where this idea comes from and (2) If you agree with it and why/why not. I have heard it described like this: Because of the Trinity, Jesus is God, and all the things done in the Old Testament were therefore done by Jesus prior to his human incarnation. Thoughts?

I believe this is the most cogent source:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

I believe Jesus, The Father, and the Paraclete are God which is the reason that The Trinity is perceived.

I believe that is false in real terms but true in conceptual terms. In real terms the body of Jesus only started in 1AD so it could not have been present in the OT. In conceptual terms Jesus existed in the mind of God from the beginning so the conceptual Jesus was there from the beginning. The idea that there is another spirit in the Godhead that represents Jesus is false:
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;

 

[Muffled]

Another one of these threads. You're really opening something that's going to go nowhere.

I don't think this is correct. The Father and the Son are distinct persons, but of the same substance. An act of the Father is not an act of the Son or the Holy Spirit. But all three are nonetheless one in the same God.

I believe that is due to those who obstruct progress.