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Can Christianity move beyond its inherent homophobia?

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Homosexuality as known and practiced today is not discussed in a context that we would recognize in our own society within the Bible.
While that is true, we are still told, in the Bible, that a man who lies with man as he would a woman is to be put to death.
There are plenty of prejudiced ideas that can be found in the text of scriptures.
Yes, and that is why we are best putting it down and replacing scriptures with reason and logic.
I just don't think the one under discussion is a very good example of one.
It's a very good example, as the Bible says they are an abomination, they are to be killed, and their blood is on their hands.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Can Christianity move beyond its inherent homophobia?
I lack faith, but anything's possible.

Homosexuality is a sin. That will never change, the Bible cannot be changed.
We have a New Testament and an edited Old Testament, so yeah, it can be and has been for centuries.

We love and welcome all but we will never accept sin nor will we ever give sin our approval since God hates sin.
Why is wearing two types of fabric a sin?

As been pointed out to me though out my life it is in the Bible, and most Christian Churches specifically teach it as a sin (AKA something bad). I mean you can be obtuse about it if you like, but they teach this in the Christian religion and they believe this decree comes from their god. That is inherent to the religion
But ancient Christian churches had gay marriage, so clearly homophobia was a later development or something. After all, "if in Christ there is neither male nor female", then why does it matter what gender the partners are?

Jesus said marriage doesn't exist in heaven anyway, so we argue about legalizing an institution Jesus didn't care for to begin with.

I didn't think it was, and honestly...did Jesus talk about homosexuality, specifically?
The closest things are Jesus saying we should just deal with "eunuchs" and then there's the fact the "Beloved Disciple who Jesus loved best and could lie down on Jesus' lap and everything is John, not Mary ....

Please, by all means, expound your interpretation of Leviticus 20.
I don't worship Moses, nor Paul.

To many cultures, it was considered dishonorable for a male to be penetrated by another man. It was considered "unmaly" and "womanly". Even the pagan Greeks, Romans and Norse thought so and looked down on males who took the "passive" role in sex with other males. It was a common belief in patriarchal, sexist cultures in Europe and in the Middle East. That thinking is reflected in verses such as that.
Yeah, a guy could screw another guy as long as you weren't the guy getting screwed. :)

Where do you live that people have been telling you you're evil your whole life?
And how does it differ from everyone else being told their evil all our/their lives? I mean, my maternal grandparents were Southern Baptists. You could be a saint and you'd still deserve to burn in hell. :)

What does that have to do with this thread? Please keep politics in the political forums section.
Transphobia doesn't count as part of the discussion of Christians and homophobia?

But now Christians of the new testament. We do not kill, unless it's in self defense.
Why should that matter? People have no qualms of inventing dangers to justify hatred. See: consenting relationships with adult humans.

As you can see as a Christian all we can do is warn those of their ways. But if we do not warn them, then God holds us responsible and their blood will be on our hands.
Jesus told you SPECIFICALLY to treat others as you wish to be treated, to be kind to strangers, etc.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Can Christianity move beyond its inherent homophobia? And if it can't will it survive the growing social acceptance of the LGBTQ community?

It should be possible, but I think progress will be along the lines of "two steps forward, one back" for awhile. On the one hand, younger Christians -- even younger Evangelicals -- tend to be significantly more tolerant than older Christians. But on the other hand, many or most Christians at least nominally rely more on scripture than on tradition to determine what Christianity should be -- and Christian scriptures contain some anti-LGBT sentiments. So there will probably always be elements in Christianity that are inspired to homophobia by Christian scriptures.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Can Christianity move beyond its inherent homophobia? And if it can't will it survive the growing social acceptance of the LGBTQ community?

*** In this context homophobia should be viewed as prejudice towards the LGBTQ community.


***EDIT to help avoid the confusion I can already see setting in:

Just to clarify a bit:

The fact that some have been able to move beyond the homophobia does not mean the whole will. It does suggest the possibility, which is what the inquiry of the OP is about. I know some of you feel the need to ride in on a white horse to defend Christianity, but such religions are very much a hot spot for homophobia, likely because of their teachings and the question is: Can Christianity move beyond this limitation?
I believe they can.
I mean, they got past spontaneous generation
they got past flat world
they got past inter racial marriage
the got past Earth being center of universe
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Those who calls themselves Christians and accept homosexualls. Are not true Christians and can not lable themselves as true Christians.
You got the true and false Christians in the world.
Fortunately, your opinion doesn't matter to the meaning of the label Christian. Like the racists of the past you'll just wind up being an embarrassment to the grandkids.
Because Christianity simply means "whatever someone who identifies as Christian believes ".
Tom
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Fortunately, your opinion doesn't matter to the meaning of the label Christian. Like the racists of the past you'll just wind up being an embarrassment to the grandkids.
Because Christianity simply means "whatever someone who identifies as Christian believes ".
Tom

Christianity means a person who follow Christ and the teachings of Christ.
Note that Christ is the abbreviation for Christian, Christ = Christian.

Notice what Christ has said, who do you suppose Christ is talking about, Remember
Christ = Christian.
Matthew 24:4-5,
Verse 4--"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take you heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many"

Christians are the only people who comes in the name of Christ = Christian?

But then you have to distinguish who is a true Christian and the false Christian.

For many shall come in the name of Christ and shall deceive many.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Please stop derailing my thread, it is not about your personal hang ups with me.

I have no personal hang ups with you - notions like that are what I'm talking about with the assumption train. If you could drop that assumption train, productive conversations could happen (certainly, fewer derailments at least). I'm obviously not going away any time soon, and neither or you, so it seems like it'd be in the best interest to have a positive resolution. Like I said, the door is open when you want to use it.
 

Jeremiahcp

Well-Known Jerk
I have no personal hang ups with you - notions like that are what I'm talking about with the assumption train. If you could drop that assumption train, productive conversations could happen (certainly, fewer derailments at least). I'm obviously not going away any time soon, and neither or you, so it seems like it'd be in the best interest to have a positive resolution. Like I said, the door is open when you want to use it.

This is not relevant to the thread; the topic of this thread is not your personal beef with me. Please stay on topic.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
So you don't disagree with my assessment of Christianity's past track record; you just think we shouldn't make inferences about its future performance from it?
I think you shouldn't make thoughtless and bigoted inferences from selective and self-serving input. Cultures learn, evolve and adapt. See, for example,


See, also,


Such articles would have read qualitatively differently just a few decades ago. I know of no sociological data suggesting a likely change in this trajectory.

Your position is petulant ad hominem at best.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Alot of people will say, the Bible is a thing of the pass, and shouldn't be taken as a reliable source.
But yet the bible which was written so long ago, Yet is found in describing how people to day would be taking God's word lightly, trying to put logic and reason over what is written in the scriptures.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Here's a question, but in reverse.

Can homosexualls move behind it's inherent christianphobia?
Google Jesus Metropolitan Community Church.

Here's a link to one in Indianapolis.
https://lifejourney.church/

Feel free to tell me why a
"LifeJourney is called to serve, while seeking justice, for the oppressed and marginalized in our community and around the globe."
is not a Christian church.
I have been to services there. A little fundy for my Catholic tastes, but they're definitely Christian.
Tom
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I think you shouldn't make thoughtless and bigoted inferences from selective and self-serving input.
And you shouldn't throw insults like that around unless you can back them up. What's selective or self-serving about what I said?

Cultures learn, evolve and adapt.
So you agree that Christian churches generally once held murderous attitudes toward homosexuality, but believe they've changed?

See, for example,


See, also,


Such articles would have read qualitatively differently just a few decades ago. I know of no sociological data suggesting a likely change in this trajectory.
I don't either. The extrinsic factors that got observant Christians - and Christian churches themselves - to stop their practice of executing homosexual people in the name of their religion aren't likely to go away any time soon.

... but those factors are extrinsic. Religions tend to become more moderate when they lose their power and when they have to actually work with people of differing beliefs. Take away those outside factors and we'd see the equilibrium we have now shift to a new equilibrium that has much worse consequences for LGBT people.

Your position is petulant ad hominem at best.
And your position seems to be all outrage and no substance.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Can Christianity move beyond its inherent homophobia? And if it can't will it survive the growing social acceptance of the LGBTQ community?

*** In this context homophobia should be viewed as prejudice towards the LGBTQ community.
A view from a non-Christian

As the word "homophobia" is regarded today it can mean several things; an
"irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals"
Source: Merriam-Webster

So, my first question would be, which of these is one addressing?

"irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality" [homosexual activities]
OR
"irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuals" [people who are exclusively sexually attracted to people of their own sex.]
As for the Bible, it focuses on the activity rather than the attraction.

Romans 1:26-27
26 Because people did those things, God left them and let them do the shameful things they wanted to do. Women stopped having natural sex with men and started having sex with other women. 27 In the same way, men stopped having natural sex with women and began wanting each other all the time. Men did shameful things with other men, and in their bodies they received the punishment for those wrongs.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9-10 Surely you know that people who do wrong will not get to enjoy God’s kingdom. Don’t be fooled. These are the people who will not get to enjoy his kingdom: those who sin sexually, those who worship idols, those who commit adultery, men who let other men use them for sex or who have sex with other men, those who steal, those who are greedy, those who drink too much, those who abuse others with insults, and those who cheat.

Leviticus 18:22
22 “Men, you must not have sexual relations with another man as with a woman. That is a terrible sin!

Leviticus 20:13
13 “If a man has sexual relations with another man as with a woman, they have committed a terrible sin. They must be put to death. They are responsible for their own death.

1 Corinthians7:2
But sexual sin is a danger, so each man should enjoy his own wife, and each woman should enjoy her own husband.
[Not quite on point, but close enough I think.]
Therefore, as I read it the Bible it evidently doesn't care if "people. . . are exclusively sexually attracted to people of their own sex," although, it does very much care if one engages in homosexual activities. So if there's going to be any homophobia going on it should be limited to "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against" the activity. Perhaps one of those "hate the sin and not the sinner" things. If a homosexual doesn't have same sex engagements, I assume he's pretty much home free as far as committing any sexual sin, and should not be feared, averted, or discriminated against. In which case homophobia would be an asinine reaction.

So the question is, to what extent should the good Christian visit his fear, aversion, and discrimination on the practicing homosexual?
As I see it, if one is committed to abiding by the Bible, especially Lev. 20:13, it isn't enough to let god handle the matter, but one should put such people (men anyway) to death. However, if one feels Christians are no longer bound by OT laws not reiterated in the NT then to what extent should the good Christian act on his fears, aversions, and discrimination against the practicing homosexual?

In fairness to homosexuals, who according to all the studies I'm aware of, do not choose their sexual orientation, the question has to be asked: should it really be expected that they reign in their sexual urges? Although for some inexplicable reason the Bible really hates such goings-on, when it comes right down to the nuts and bolts of homosexual activity one has to wonder: why this hatred of two consenting people doing X with each other? From what I've read of the Bible it doesn't give any reason other than: god doesn't like it.

And despite this groundless regard for homosexual activities (no reasons are given) the Bible has instilled homophobia---fear, aversion, and discrimination---in its believers. So, how much does the good Christian want to follow this irrational homophobia?

My answer would be to ask oneself how fair is it to hold against them the right to express their unbidden sexual urges just because they're different from one's own? Do practicing homosexuals deserve to be discriminated against simply because they happened to have developed differently than most others? If you feel the Bible is inviolate then I assume you do feel your homophobia is well grounded. However, as a matter of loving fairness exactly how just is this?

From where I sit looking at the OP question, "Can Christianity move beyond its inherent homophobia," my answer would be, in large part yes it can---the fundies notwithstanding. And, it will easily survive the growing social acceptance of the LGBTQ community because more and more people are recognizing that LGBTs are just as much an asset to our society as straight folk, and that what they do in the bedroom simply doesn't matter, despite what the Bible says.

Just as an aside. I believe it's issues such as this that are leading to the decline in Christianity in the USA and Canada. People seem to be thinking more on their own, embracing acceptance, and shifting away from the hate of the Bible.

.




 
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