I suspect that the President already knows that his tweet excluding transsexuals from the military will eventually be declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court - but during the interim it serves as "red meat" for his base!
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Can Christianity move beyond its inherent homophobia?
- Thread starter Jeremiahcp
- Start date
Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
The directions a conversation takes are often influenced by the assumptions one brings to the table. If you have the capacity to drop this weird assumption train you've got going, we could probably have some productive conversations. You do post a lot of interesting things for consideration. Door is open, when you want to use it.
Please stop derailing my thread, it is not about your personal hang ups with me. If you want send me a PM and I'll be happy to ignore it.
Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
What does that have to do with this thread? Please keep politics in the political forums section.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Some things are just too archaic to be updated without ending up with something different entirely.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
While many Christians have indeed moved beyond it, ultimately Christianity has homophobia written into its very cannon.
EverChanging
Well-Known Member
Homosexuality as known and practiced today is not discussed in a context that we would recognize in our own society within the Bible. There are plenty of prejudiced ideas that can be found in the text of scriptures. I just don't think the one under discussion is a very good example of one.
Shadow Link
Active Member
Im going to try and take an approach here to answer why this lifestyle can be viewed ignorant(sinful) specifically in the OT.
If we have to question the intent of why the scriptures opposed this lifestyle, I think 'nation building' was clearly a factor of concern in the OT and I also don't see where celibacy was encouraged a lot back then either, or am I missing that somewhere? [my example] After the death of a brother the surviving brother was ordered to impregnate the deceased brothers wife if she previously had had no son.
If we have to question the intent of why the scriptures opposed this lifestyle, I think 'nation building' was clearly a factor of concern in the OT and I also don't see where celibacy was encouraged a lot back then either, or am I missing that somewhere? [my example] After the death of a brother the surviving brother was ordered to impregnate the deceased brothers wife if she previously had had no son.
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I fully expect that within the lifetimes of young people today Christians will generally believe that True Christians always supported gay rights and marriage equality and such. They will insist that Christians were on the forefront of the battle for equality, and the homophobes weren't really Christians at all.
Just like they now do concerning racial equality. To listen to them talk now, you'd think 19th century slave owners were all atheists.
Tom
Just like they now do concerning racial equality. To listen to them talk now, you'd think 19th century slave owners were all atheists.
Tom
Yes.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Those who calls themselves Christians and accept homosexualls. Are not true Christians and can not lable themselves as true Christians.
You got the true and false Christians in the world.
Now it is said, did Jesus ever say anything about homosexualit, sure he did.
Jesus is God in flesh, Ok , So since Jesus is God, that means everything that is spoke against homosexualit back in the old testament is Jesus speaking those things against homosexualit.
There were things done in the old testament days, that Christians to day are not to do.
For instance back in the old testament, homosexualls were to be killed.
But now Christians of the new testament. We do not kill, unless it's in self defense.
But to go and kill someone just because they live their life different. No we are not to kill.
But as Christians all we are allowed to do is talk with them, But however if a homosexual or anyone else chooses to ignore, then it's all on them,
Look in the book of Ezekiel 33:8-9,
Verse 8--"When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, you shalt surely die, if you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, That wicked man shall die in his Lawlessness, but his blood will I require at your hand"
As you can see as a Christian all we can do is warn those of their ways. But if we do not warn them, then God holds us responsible and their blood will be on our hands.
Notice Verse 9--"nevertheless if you warn the wicked of his way to turn from it, if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his lawlessness, but you had delivered your soul"
What this mean is, If I as a Christian have warn them, and they do not turn from their Lawlessness, They shall die in their Lawlessness, But I am delivered of having any fault. All because they were warned.
Notice that disciple Paul had written in Romans chapter 1:22--32, Notice that throughout these Verse's that it's all about a man that lays with another man, as he would with a woman.
Notice in Verse 32 in this verse is speaking to those who knowing the Judgement of God, that they which commit such things, As man laying with man as he would with a woman, are worthy of death, not only those who do these things, but also those who bless those who are doing such things are worthy of death also.
This is not to be taken, that christians are to go out killing, No. Those who commit such things and those who bless those who are committing such things, God will take care of both of them on his Judgement day.
Therefore you that call yourself a Christian and your found in telling anyone that everything is ok, that God loves you, God is holding you just as much responsible as those who are committing such things responsible for their actions.
As it is written, Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, has not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this Doctrine, received him not into your house, neither bid him God's love, for he that greets him Gods love shares in his evil deeds"
2 John 9--11.
Therefore God will hold those responsible for lieing and deceiving those who commit such things, saying God loves you, This is lieing and deceiving them, and you will be held responsible for your lieing and deceiving them. And you will be held as guilty as they are.
For he greets him God's love, shares in his evil deeds. As it is written.
You got the true and false Christians in the world.
Now it is said, did Jesus ever say anything about homosexualit, sure he did.
Jesus is God in flesh, Ok , So since Jesus is God, that means everything that is spoke against homosexualit back in the old testament is Jesus speaking those things against homosexualit.
There were things done in the old testament days, that Christians to day are not to do.
For instance back in the old testament, homosexualls were to be killed.
But now Christians of the new testament. We do not kill, unless it's in self defense.
But to go and kill someone just because they live their life different. No we are not to kill.
But as Christians all we are allowed to do is talk with them, But however if a homosexual or anyone else chooses to ignore, then it's all on them,
Look in the book of Ezekiel 33:8-9,
Verse 8--"When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, you shalt surely die, if you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, That wicked man shall die in his Lawlessness, but his blood will I require at your hand"
As you can see as a Christian all we can do is warn those of their ways. But if we do not warn them, then God holds us responsible and their blood will be on our hands.
Notice Verse 9--"nevertheless if you warn the wicked of his way to turn from it, if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his lawlessness, but you had delivered your soul"
What this mean is, If I as a Christian have warn them, and they do not turn from their Lawlessness, They shall die in their Lawlessness, But I am delivered of having any fault. All because they were warned.
Notice that disciple Paul had written in Romans chapter 1:22--32, Notice that throughout these Verse's that it's all about a man that lays with another man, as he would with a woman.
Notice in Verse 32 in this verse is speaking to those who knowing the Judgement of God, that they which commit such things, As man laying with man as he would with a woman, are worthy of death, not only those who do these things, but also those who bless those who are doing such things are worthy of death also.
This is not to be taken, that christians are to go out killing, No. Those who commit such things and those who bless those who are committing such things, God will take care of both of them on his Judgement day.
Therefore you that call yourself a Christian and your found in telling anyone that everything is ok, that God loves you, God is holding you just as much responsible as those who are committing such things responsible for their actions.
As it is written, Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, has not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this Doctrine, received him not into your house, neither bid him God's love, for he that greets him Gods love shares in his evil deeds"
2 John 9--11.
Therefore God will hold those responsible for lieing and deceiving those who commit such things, saying God loves you, This is lieing and deceiving them, and you will be held responsible for your lieing and deceiving them. And you will be held as guilty as they are.
For he greets him God's love, shares in his evil deeds. As it is written.
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Any time in human history when a Christian church has had the authority to kill homosexual people for their homosexuality, it has done it... often in gruesome ways.
Talk about a fallacious argument!
Go ahead, then... talk about it. Tell us why you think it's wrong.
The OP asks, in part:
Your apparent answer is: No, because it was homophobic in the past, i.e., it can't change because that would constitute a change. Brilliant!
Daisies4me
Active Member
(quote)
Hi Deidre--The Bible doesn’t comment directly on the biology of homosexual desires, though it acknowledges that we are all born with a tendency to go against what God commands. (Romans 7:21-25)
Rather than focus on the cause of homosexual desires, however, the Bible prohibits homosexual acts.
The Bible says: “Don’t be controlled by your body. Kill every desire for the wrong kind of sex.” (Colossians 3:5, Contemporary English Version)
To kill wrong desires, which lead to wrong actions, you need to control your thinking. If you regularly fill your mind with wholesome thoughts, you can more readily dismiss wrong desires. (Philippians 4:8; James 1:14, 15) While you may struggle greatly at first, it can become easier. God promises to help you to “be made new in the force actuating your mind.”—Ephesians 4:22-24.
What most people tend to not be aware of, it the fact that the same struggle is faced by millions with heterosexual desires who wish to conform to the Bible’s standards.
For example, those who are single with little prospect of marriage or who are married to a partner who is unable to function sexually choose to control their sexual urges despite any temptations they might face. They are able to live happily, and those with same-sex urges can do so as well if they truly want to please God.—Deuteronomy 30:19.
take care
(quote)
Obviously.
Therefore?
Meanwhile, as for the True Christians who'll flock to this thread to defend the purity of their homophobia, the real question will become: Can True Scotsmen move beyond their fallacies.
So you don't disagree with my assessment of Christianity's past track record; you just think we shouldn't make inferences about its future performance from it?
Why's that? Consistently, it's taken outside influences - e.g. secular laws enforced by secular governments - to stop Christians from murdering homosexual people in the name of their religion. There are places in the world today - places where secularism isn't particularly strong - where this is still going on. What is it about Christianity that suggests to you that, given the opportunity to do as it pleases again and a bit of time, it wouldn't go back to its old ways?
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Hopefully, any views, attitudes and reactions which lead to people being treated badly can be changed -but there will always be people on every side of every issue who treat others badly.
True Christianity involves limiting one's OWN actions in order to keep the commandments, so that will and should always include limiting sexual acts to those within marriage ALWAYS -and within a male/female relationship AS POSSIBLE.
The only "gray area" there is how to apply the law if an individual is TRULY not of one distinct gender or the other.
Those who choose to follow Christ -which does include keeping the commandments and any judgments which apply -should not treat others badly -should seek out their OWN salvation in fear and trembling -and should always seek to be understanding of others.
Not all acts or tendencies viewed as homosexual have to do with actual gender issues or being born any certain way -and considering such to be sin is simply a matter of acknowledging the law.
The law has to do with your decisions -not your state -though applying the law may have to do with your state.
The idea that all such things have to do with "being born that way" is far too simplistic -and simply accepting it does no one any good in the long term -even if it applies to some.
It is a political stance which has been very effective -can be true or somewhat true -but is one possible aspect of an extremely complex issue. Simply accepting it as true in every case can even keep one from a deeper understanding of themselves -and so from deeper happiness.
One can acknowledge the law without judging another or treating them badly.
What others do is between them and God -unless they somehow make it your business.
Religious people should definitely realize, however, that not all people are born as completely distinct males or females.
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