• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How are these Great Beings explained?

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No we don't. The last thing I want is a Christian praying for me. The last thing an atheist wants is anyone praying for them. Most hospitals have new rules about who can pray for whom. It's rude to pray for something when that person doesn't even believe in it.

God's way is to pray for all people. I choose to do that. I welcome any that pray for me. God bless them all.

Ha ha, does a hospital think it can stop the love in peoples heart. They do not have to hear the prayer, but it would be given and He Who hears all prayers knows the hearts.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Bahais believe in Bible exactly as is. The Word Trinity is not found in Bible, and has a significance which comes from the interpretation of the Mainstream Christians.

But, if instead of asking, do you believe in Trinity, you ask, Do You believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Bahai answer would be a big YES.

A BIG YES :)

Prayers your way everyday.

Regards Tony
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@Vinakaya Notice you laughin' a lot these days, haha.

The Bahais believe in Bible exactly as is.

The Word Trinity is not found in Bible, and has a significance which comes from the interpretation of the Mainstream Christians.

But, if instead of asking, do you believe in Trinity, you ask, Do You believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Bahai answer would be a big YES.

I hate to knit pick, but the "bible as is" is not seeing it as symbolism. Maybe you mean you see the Bible as correctly interpreted by Bahaullah (specifically referring to your own faith) and not the bible as it is originally made and books chosen by the Jewish OT and the Church a lot of the NT?

Trinity means: The creator, his son, and the holy spirit are one person in nature (they are all divine). It is in scripture. The word trinity does not need to be in the bible for it to be there literally and in meaning.

-

Mainstream christians (whose views are valid just the same as their scripture) believe because all three are divine, they must be the same. Either view does not change the purpose of the trinity. I honestly don't know why Bahai, JW, and mainstream christians have a problem with it.

The interpretation of it varies, including Bahai though I don't view their interpretation valid if respectfully going by christianity and judaism teachings with which the bible is specifically for.

-

Bahai believe in the creator. They do not believe in the son because the son is an intermediary (and only intermediary to the father) not Bahaullah, not Moses, not Krishna, only christ.

You do not believe in the holy spirit. The holy spirit is not a universal concept. It's specifically the spirit of christ with whom after his literal resurrection all believers received so that they spread christ's words about his father through Acts. There is no Bahaullah, Krishna, and so forth involved.

The holy spirit, which is kind of redundant to christ spirit, is specifically for those who identity as christians and are saved by the blood and body of christ. Bahallauh is not included in this equation. Therefore, you are not following christian teachings but your own. (Same as Hindu and same as Buddhist).

-
Yes, you can believe in the message of christ. Many non-christians do.

There is a difference in believing and literally being part of his body-life, death, and resurrection. I mean, I believe that god is life itself. I believe christ is the body of people. I believe the spirit is what animates life and brings the people together.

Yes, that is christ's teachings; and it is not christianity.

We accept what we believe without needing other people's religions to justify our belief system. It's still unity, if you like. Just you got to respect other's boundaries.

Not about you.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
It does not matter. My Mother, a born again Christain always prays for me, God bless her Soul.

Regards Tony

Catholics, Bahai, Buddhist, and atheist (keep me in mind) all the time.

I just want to know why you'd say that unless you feel he isn't seeing in god's eyes. When you dodge a question, you make me think that you see other people who do not believe what you believe as wrong or misguided.

I do not like assuming. Dodging questions makes me play guessing games. That is why I asked the question.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
God's way is to pray for all people. I choose to do that. I welcome any that pray for me. God bless them all.

Ha ha, does a hospital think it can stop the love in peoples heart. They do not have to hear the prayer, but it would be given and He Who hears all prayers knows the hearts.

Regards Tony

In my country, if some pastor comes into a hospital room proselytising and not invited, he/she can be charged with trespassing. It's going into another person's personal space, and shows a lot of disrespect for that individual. I personally would charge the person. It has to stop, this condescending, 'I'm holier than thou' attitude some people have. If the world is to get along, then there has to be some respect for other POVs.

I would only pray for someone if that person asked me to. That's a very different story. You have their permission. I see this as assault. Not physical assault, but emotional or spiritual assault. It doesn't consider the rights of the individual at all. It's hard to believe people are that self-righteous.

Gosh I hope the Baha'i' aren't reading obituaries and going to homes of everyone who is grieving.
 
Last edited:

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's hard to believe people are that self-righteous.

Yes I guess wishing everybody on this planet all the best and all the Love they can find could be seen in the negative if one so wishes to.

Consider that is your picture and circumstance you have offered that is prayer to others, not mine.

I fell no need to comment any further, play with it as much as you like :)

Regards Tony
 
Last edited:

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Trinity means: The creator, his son, and the holy spirit are one person in nature (they are all divine). It is in scripture.
Please quote from Scripture, the underlined part of your statement.

The word trinity does not need to be in the bible for it to be there literally and in meaning.
In Bahai view, it needs to be in Bible, so it can be considered Biblical.
It is like the word reincarnation. I could not find that word in the sayings of Krishna. So, i do not believe Krishna talked about reincarnation, even if I do not look at it from the Bahai point of view.
 
Last edited:

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Yes I guess wishing everybody on this planet all the best and all the Love they can find could be seen in the negative if one so wishes to.

Comsider that is your picture and circumstance you have offered that is prayer to others, not mine.

I fell no need to comment any further, play with it as much as you like :)

Regards Tony

You missed the point entirely. It's not up to you. It's up to the other person. When a person comes into your house, ask them what they want, don't just bring them a beer or a steak, or whatever, and say 'eat'. Don't go into their house and start painting it the colour you want to be. This is only about respecting the space of others. Here on these forums, we have DIRs. You can feel free to post in the Baha'i' DIR, and I can feel free to post in the Hindu DIR, without having disrespectful people entering those DIRs and telling us how stupid we are for believing in what we do. By praying for an atheist, you're indirectly telling him he's stupid. In my mind, that's disrespecting the choices about belief he has made.

But then, in Hinduism, we're well trained to respect the space and wishes of the other person. My father was a respected neighbour, and a known atheist. You think I'm using strong language. You should have heard what he had to say about this. lol. I'll quote him if you wish.

"But go ahead. Your God can't do anything for me anyway." He knew how to fight fire with fire, and it generally got them off his back.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
In Bahai view, it needs to be in Bible, so it can be considered Biblical. It is like the word reincarnation. I could not find that word in the sayings of Krishna. So, i do not believe Krishna talked about reincarnation, even if I do not look at it from the Bahai point of view.

This is a huge problem with Hindu and Buddhist religions. It is a problem with some christians, who, unless going by denominations, see christ teachings beyond scripture.

Please quote from Scripture, the underlined part of your statement.

Trinity means: The creator, his son, and the holy spirit are one person in nature (they are all divine). It is in scripture.

The nature of god:

“God is a Spirit.”—John 4:24.

Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse

Nature of christ

2 Corinthians 5:21

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Christ/Holy Spirit nature

Luke 1:35

The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Nature of the Holy Spirit

Romans 8:2-6
2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace

:leafwind:

Father: Creator
Son: Savior
Spirit: Life

When you believe you are a sinner in christianity, you feel you are in need of a savior. Because that savior is an intermediary to god. In order to go to god through this intermediary, the bible (above) describes this "agent" that creates union a spirit (holy is an adjective). The Spirit (life) of go (creator) through his son (divineness of humanity) gave life to humanity (became sin), to live and teach his father's words (the Law of Moses), to die (so that christians can die), and be resurrected (so christians can be resurrected)

but this cannot happen without the creator being, well, the creator. Without the son, who is the go-between. Without the spirit-what christians receive at pentecost (in Acts as well) in order to spread Christ's Word-which is his Father's Word not his own.

That is the trinity.

What you're talking about is mainstream interpretations. Your beliefs do not define christian beliefs. You are not christian. (Or Hindu or Muslim)

So you cannot debate the internal nature of christianity unless you understand what it means to be part of the body of christ beyond symbolism.

I do not believe that jesus is god. I do understand the trinity beyond how fundamentalist describe it. I've done my research, gone to Mass, experienced it, and been devoted to it. It is not by the book. Jesus even said that "people look to scriptures as if they hold eternal life. Even they testify to my behalf." (Mark 8:24)

Stop looking at scripture to find god.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@InvestigateTruth

Two scriptures that let's you know to not look to scripture (words in books) to find god but the spirit (life) in the message (not words) of those books, your life, and reflection of yourself to find god. There is a big difference in the two.

1. John 5:39: "Ye search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Why search for christ message in scripture? He says go to him/intermediary to get to god/creator. If you're not a christian, scripture is moot. You can learn from it but living without Bahaullah is a totally different story for you.

2. John 20:30 "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book" John 21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

I don't know, Investigator. All other faiths tell you to go to god. Trinitarians say go to christ. The rest say go through christ.

They all say you have to take the sacraments and they all say that there are no other people outside the jewish prophets, saints, and christ that point the way to god.

So, the message is nice and all; but, in my opinion, I'd never use someone else's religion to defend my interpretation of a religion I do not follow.

-

John 20:22 "and when he [christ] had said this, he breathed on them and said to them. 'receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
 
Last edited:

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You missed the point entirely.

In my country, if some pastor comes into a hospital room proselytising and not invited, he/she can be charged with trespassing. It's going into another person's personal space, and shows a lot of disrespect for that individual. I personally would charge the person. It has to stop, this condescending, 'I'm holier than thou' attitude some people have. If the world is to get along, then there has to be some respect for other POVs.

I would only pray for someone if that person asked me to. That's a very different story. You have their permission. I see this as assault. Not physical assault, but emotional or spiritual assault. It doesn't consider the rights of the individual at all. It's hard to believe people are that self-righteous.

Gosh I hope the Baha'i' aren't reading obituaries and going to homes of everyone who is grieving.

Praying for the Welfare of Others

By Urmila Devi Dasi

On the path of pure devotion to Krishna, where does praying for others fit in?

"........Praying for others focuses our attention on Krishna rather than on thinking ourselves the controllers of the world. If we don't turn to Krishna, we might develop a mood of carelessness and irresponsibility in our dealings with others, even becoming cold-hearted in response to others’ difficulties. Taking our time and energy to pray for others helps us develop selflessness.

Those who pray for others in a mood of pure love for Krishna know that everything is up to Him. It is not the volume or intensity of prayer that changes a situation; it is Krishna and His will. It is true that there are cases in scripture where the Lord changes things at the behest of His devotees. But while Krishna may sometimes change His decisions out of love for those who petition Him, He always has the ultimate deciding power. Those who pray for others, therefore, think, “Whatever you want, Lord, is all good.”

Throughout the scriptures, those who want spiritual enlightenment are advised to do good for others. Activities to benefit others are both a prime symptom of spiritual advancement and an essential part of the process to achieve enlightenment. Offering intercessory prayer can enhance such a mood of openhearted service......"

May all be well and happy.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Stop looking at scripture to find god.

Would you have us look at God through the veiws of Carlita, that does not beleive in God? That would be strange to say the least.

Carlita your views need a Mediator, they need a foundation. Your like a chameleon that changes colour with each post. :glomp:

You could choose to read and understand what Baha'u'llah is saying. I hope you do one day (well pray you will) :hugehug:

I can not offer much more.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, I think your understanding is pretty close. Hindus will also meditate on particular life problems, go into a sort of samadhi, or deep concentration first, and then call up the 'problem' asking for a solution. But often the solution won't come then, but some time later, unbidden, as if out of nowhere. When something comes (a flash of insight) unbidden, we have more faith in it, as opposed to the intellectual process of logic, and argument. Both may arrive at the same conclusion.

This is exciting to gain a glimpse into the world of Hindu mysticism and have greater clarity about one of the key differences between Hindus and the Abrahamics. I would like to explore this more closely.

Hindus and Baha'is both meditate. They both have mystical experiences. A central focus of our meditation may be what we call God.

As for God, there are other differences in perception, such as the knowable versus unknowable question. Hindus believe God is knowable, (not at all in any intellectual sense) as the innermost Self is identical to God.

Do Baha'is experience God through meditation? Of course. Can Baha'is attain to knowledge of God? Yes, though only to a degree can the finite mind comprehend the infinite. The innermost self is where we experience God.

Baha'u'llah talks about turning our gaze unto our selves that we may find God within ourselves. Abdu'l-Baha talks about meditation as being an essential part of what it is to be human.

The question then becomes what is different about the mystical experience between Baha'is and Hindus. Can Hindus gain access to deeper mystical realms that are inaccessible to Baha'is? Perhaps the mystical experience is a reflection of our own selfs, cultures, and faith?

I suspect part of your answer will be that Hindus have gurus that lead their followers in the right path, to attain a glimpse of the mystical. The enlightened can illumine the path for their followers. Baha'is on the other hand....do you think it its the blind leading the blind?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
True. In my personal opinion, it's not just conversation. For example, Christianity distorts a lot of Judaism (as so from Jews point of view). Since Judaism came before Christianity, regardless of whether we are nice in our communication I would never internally tell myself a Jew is wrong about his own belief system because my belief (say if I were christian) says it's another way. I don't see god over man. If I defined god, god is what defines mind not an outside person. Is life rather than gives life. That's how I see god.

There arefew Jews where I live so not too many opportunities to discuss religion face to face. In my country, New Zealanders are weary about talking religion.

Christians on the other hand are my close brothers and sisters. Lots to talk over on the religious side.

Atheists/agnostics are not so comfortable with God talk. I respect that and give them the distance they need. Sometimes that means never talking about religion.

So, when a Jew says X and a Christian says Y that conflicts with Jewish views, it isn't about me since there is no god above me to tell me who is right or wrong. God is the source/life of a person not a person with whom can give words of morality. Morality is embedded in ourselves because that is god. So, if a Christian believes something that is not right with the Jewish faith but them claims that Judaism is a foundation of Christianity, I have an issue with that. That morality between how that Christian sees a Jew is disconnecting one person from another thereby disconnecting god.

I try to stay out of the cross fire between the Jews and Christians on RF, as I do with the Christian and atheists. I attribute some of the criticism Baha'is receive to transference. We are correctly regarded as an Abrahamic Faith but then it is assumed we must be like the Christians or Muslims.

Thank you. Working on my spelling ;) I see many inspired people writing religious books. I don't see the book inspired by god because it makes that book an idol. Instead of looking at yourself and environment to connect with god, you look to one source and one book. It's very limiting to see life through one book and one prophet as an override of the progressive prophets. Many people just go to god directly. That's what I would do. No book needed if god can communicate anyway he wishes. Why would he create humans that do not have the ability to communicate with him. Kind of like parents having children but instead of the child communicating with their parents, their parents give him a go-between. That go-between is not the same as the parent. Children know this. Adults, we're sometimes fickled in awarenes.

When I learnt the art of medicine, books were an essential part of my learning. Similarly when I learnt to the Baha'i way, I read a great deal. Now I spend much more time living and doing and less time reading. Its good to have the books to refer back to though. Its easy to think I have it right only to discover I'm not after all.

Logically, it doesn't. It's not specifically with Vinakaya. Atheists, non-religious, myself, a lot of people here have said the same thing. We don't need to look into Hinduism and practice it to know that Krishna is not a man nor manifestation as defined by the quotes and teachings on this thread by Bahai. I mean, anyone can believe anything they want. Once you call them facts, there's a problem. Especially religiously.

I have the impression, rightly or wrongly, that many Hindus believe Krishna was a real man. The Diety part may be similar to the so called Divinity of Christ.

You can't have greater peace by believing wrong things about other religions and expect sometime in the future we will agree if we believe in the promised one.

Sure.

I've read Krishna is a deity. I think awhile back, @Vinayaka said something about him being a man turned into a deity because he achieved Moksha or something. It was just one post, though. The Gita I posted defines him as a deity. He is an incarnation. He is god himself. (Vishnu-->Brahma). So, god can't be a manifestation of god.

It's not opinion. It's just what their written and dogma teaches. It's also logical looking at it objectively. Because you guys believe in your god views, you don't see it. It is literally calling other believers liars. If they are not liars, they would agree with your god. Their teachings and practitioners do not. So, the Bahai views bamboozles me.

There is a huge diversity of thought amongst Hindus. I don't see the Baha'i perspective on Krishna as a man and a manifestation of God as being completely unrelated to any Hindu belief. One of the links I included in my recent post was from a site @Vinayaka provided as Hindus providing information about their own beliefs.

Just because Krishna is a Manifestation of God, does not mean there are not other Maifestation of Gods, or a galaxy of many outstanding or accomplished spiritual people accross the spectrum of Hindu belief.

I can't remember how Vinayaka phrased it. Though, being a man automatically means one isn't god and vis versa. Krishna is god, though not just a deity. So, you'd have to believe in both god of Hinduism and god of abraham. Unless the god of abraham is defined differently for you the nature of the two god's are a contradiction. Whether you are comfortable with it or not shouldn't matter, right, unless god's view is dependent on what you accept rather than the other way around?

I don't see the God of Abraham and the God of Hinduism as being seperate, anymore than I see Indians and Europeans as being seperate species, or having cultures that make living with others impossible. You or @Vinayaka having different views is fine by me. Krishna is not God. He is a manifestation of God which is an entirely different proposition. I honestly don't see the problem or contradiction.

Haha. At college, I can't even work in groups. Three or more people having multiple idea swarms my noggin' I can't imagine the topic being religion (or politics even!) on top of that.

One of my friends has just started studying religion at university....I think I might start praying for him :)
 
Last edited:

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Praying for the Welfare of Others

By Urmila Devi Dasi

On the path of pure devotion to Krishna, where does praying for others fit in?

"........Praying for others focuses our attention on Krishna rather than on thinking ourselves the controllers of the world. If we don't turn to Krishna, we might develop a mood of carelessness and irresponsibility in our dealings with others, even becoming cold-hearted in response to others’ difficulties. Taking our time and energy to pray for others helps us develop selflessness.

Those who pray for others in a mood of pure love for Krishna know that everything is up to Him. It is not the volume or intensity of prayer that changes a situation; it is Krishna and His will. It is true that there are cases in scripture where the Lord changes things at the behest of His devotees. But while Krishna may sometimes change His decisions out of love for those who petition Him, He always has the ultimate deciding power. Those who pray for others, therefore, think, “Whatever you want, Lord, is all good.”

Throughout the scriptures, those who want spiritual enlightenment are advised to do good for others. Activities to benefit others are both a prime symptom of spiritual advancement and an essential part of the process to achieve enlightenment. Offering intercessory prayer can enhance such a mood of openhearted service......"

May all be well and happy.

Regards Tony

Yes, Tony, obviously we would pray for the welfare of others. It's just when that other person specifically asks you not to. Then you're going against that person's wishes. If a relative of yours requested cremation, would you bury them, because YOUR belief is burial? It's not about you, it's about the other person.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The question then becomes what is different about the mystical experience between Baha'is and Hindus. Can Hindus gain access to deeper mystical realms that are inaccessible to Baha'is? Perhaps the mystical experience is a reflection of our own selfs, cultures, and faith?

I suspect part of your answer will be that Hindus have gurus that lead their followers in the right path, to attain a glimpse of the mystical. The enlightened can illumine the path for their followers. Baha'is on the other hand....do you think it its the blind leading the blind?

I personally certainly don't know, and it would be difficult to tell, as you couldn't start from scratch with either, without the influence gained from the first one. There are many factors to consider, not the least of which is the definition of meditation, as indicated earlier.
My Guru's second to last teacher was a Sufi mystic, if that means anything. So yes, there is stuff to be learned in both directions.
We can also compare the results of meditation in the characters of those who meditate. I presume good meditators would be calm, insightful folk.
And of course we have the celibacy factor difference, The very best of inner folk in Hinduism are celibate monks and nuns.
 

RoaringSilence

Active Member
i don't enjoy battle of words , coz i don't have many...
i don't enjoy battle of wits , coz it burns me out.
i don't enjoy intellectual discussions either coz my eq is high.
i have a life where should i spend it ? on curiosity of finding truth?
and then following it?
to get ? something ..what? idk something good.
i want to solve problems of other people , i want to do good, OK son i will create bad so you can feel good about solving it.
thank you father for adding meaning to my life.



 
Last edited:
Top