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The time of Judeo-Christian writings

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Moses was not the author, the material is not primary reference by eye witnesses, evidence demonstrates that some of the material is from Babylonian, Canaanite and Ugarit sources, nor is there any evidence that the Exodus account is actually an account of a massive movement of Jews from Egypt to Palestine.
OK
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
If a witness happened to write down what you just did yesterday. We have to choose between believe or disbelieve and there's not any other options left there.

What you just had for your lunch yesterday, or today but 2 years ago? Show us some evidence!

But I wouldn't care if you believed me or not. When I was a theist, I would share my beliefs but not try to prove them to others who don't believe. I think that is the problem with religion in general, this need to make the spiritual seem more than it is. To make it seem provable. If it brings a person joy, it should be enough for a believer. Not sure why so many theists get hung up on trying to prove that their subjective faith is objective truth.
 

Ted Evans

Active Member
Premium Member
Questioning and judging the motivation of others is not ethical nor productive,

I stated my belief, based on my experience, is that not ethical and if so, by whose measure?

BTW, I would be happy to engage in a serious discussion of the OP subject if you are interested in answering every question that I may ask you just as I am willing to do for you. Otherwise, I am not interested in a back and forth of talking points and opinions. Not meant to be rude, just being up front.
 

Ted Evans

Active Member
Premium Member
And you can't prove it at all. That, is a fact.

Wow, for someone making dogmatic statements about "fact", your certainly play loosely with the word. If I want to know if someone knows what they are talking about, I ask them questions. If they can answer my questions with plausible, verifiable answers, then they have proven to me they are knowledgeable on the subject. If they cannot answer my questions, then I take it as only being their opinion which may or may not be correct.
 

Ted Evans

Active Member
Premium Member
Calling these books 'Judeo-Christian' is flat out wrong.

Not by the definition in MW and that is the meaning that I am using.

"having historical roots in both Judaism and Christianity"

Are you saying the OT is not about Judaism? Is the OT included in the Christian's Bible? If you say yes, then it is perfectly logical to use the label, "Judeo-Christian".

This quote seems to differ with you.

"Daniel Lapin, an Orthodox rabbi, author and radio show host in 1998 wrote a book with the subtitle, “An Orthodox rabbi insists that Judeo-Christian values are vital for our nation’s survival.” In an interview, Lapin defined “Judeo-Christian values” as “those values that are held commonly by Judaism and Christianity.” For him, these include the ideas that “wisdom comes from an external source rather than from our hearts” and that “the nuclear family is the fundamental unit of society.”

What are ‘Judeo-Christian values’? Analyzing a divisive term

You have every right to disapprove if you wish, however, you do not have the right to tell me that I am wrong.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Wow, for someone making dogmatic statements about "fact", your certainly play loosely with the word. If I want to know if someone knows what they are talking about, I ask them questions. If they can answer my questions with plausible, verifiable answers, then they have proven to me they are knowledgeable on the subject. If they cannot answer my questions, then I take it as only being their opinion which may or may not be correct.

There are such things as irrefutable facts. Let me ask you...why is it important for you to show non-believers that the Bible is based on verifiable facts? If you believe that the Bible is the 'word of God,' do you feel that's enough for you? Do you feel that you have to tell yourself the Bible is factually based, in order to believe? When I was a Christian, I didn't feel the need to really prove my beliefs to others nor did I keep searching for facts to back up my beliefs. That's what faith is about. That's why there are so many religions. If God is one supreme Being...why are there are many different beliefs? Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the word of God, too. Are they wrong?

This is the conundrum with religion. :oops:

I think that if you believe, with all of your heart, that should be all that matters. But, if you are trying to convince others to believe by disguising hearsay and quasi-mythology as ''facts,'' it would be a little on the intellectually dishonest side. That's all I'm saying.
 

Ted Evans

Active Member
Premium Member
There are such things as irrefutable facts. Let me ask you...why is it important for you to show non-believers that the Bible is based on verifiable facts? If you believe that the Bible is the 'word of God,' do you feel that's enough for you? Do you feel that you have to tell yourself the Bible is factually based, in order to believe? When I was a Christian, I didn't feel the need to really prove my beliefs to others nor did I keep searching for facts to back up my beliefs. That's what faith is about. That's why there are so many religions. If God is one supreme Being...why are there are many different beliefs? Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the word of God, too. Are they wrong?

This is the conundrum with religion. :oops:

I think that if you believe, with all of your heart, that should be all that matters. But, if you are trying to convince others to believe by disguising hearsay and quasi-mythology as ''facts,'' it would be a little on the intellectually dishonest side. That's all I'm saying.

I would be thrilled to no end to engage in a serious discussion of the subject and will answer every question that you may ask me with plausible, verifiable answers, starting with the ones you asked above....IF, you are willing to respond in the same manner to me, are you game or do you only want to ask your questions and present your talking points? So, what say you Deidre?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Not by the definition in MW and that is the meaning that I am using.

"having historical roots in both Judaism and Christianity"

Are you saying the OT is not about Judaism? Is the OT included in the Christian's Bible? If you say yes, then it is perfectly logical to use the label, "Judeo-Christian".

This quote seems to differ with you.

"Daniel Lapin, an Orthodox rabbi, author and radio show host in 1998 wrote a book with the subtitle, “An Orthodox rabbi insists that Judeo-Christian values are vital for our nation’s survival.” In an interview, Lapin defined “Judeo-Christian values” as “those values that are held commonly by Judaism and Christianity.” For him, these include the ideas that “wisdom comes from an external source rather than from our hearts” and that “the nuclear family is the fundamental unit of society.”

What are ‘Judeo-Christian values’? Analyzing a divisive term

You have every right to disapprove if you wish, however, you do not have the right to tell me that I am wrong.

Some Jews object, and yes strongly, that the Old Testament be considered Jewish. They strongly object to the prophecy and Trinitarian interpretations of OT. They consider it a foreign English translation that they do not accept, and it is not really equivalent to the Torah.

Yes they share some heritage in history, but that is all most will accept.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
..., evidence demonstrates that some of the material is from Babylonian, Canaanite and Ugarit sources, ...
Parenthetically, as someone who has read Smith and others, I'd be curious to see the evidence that the material is from Ugarit sources as opposed to being inspired by or consistent with such sources.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Parenthetically, as someone who has read Smith and others, I'd be curious to see the evidence that the material is from Ugarit sources as opposed to being inspired by or consistent with such sources.

First, I believe that the Creation and flood myths predate any Hebrew scriptures and are similar enough that it involved simply editing, adding some Hebrew culture and names. Babylonian Creation myths and the flood are the oldest, but each culture adopted their own version, and the Canaanite Hebrew Hills tribes of Judah simply adopted their own version.

I do not believe that inspired by nor consistent with is an adequate explanation for those that believe that the Pentateuch is a first person literal set of documents considering the historical context.

More to follow . . .
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
First, I believe that the Creation and flood myths predate any Hebrew scriptures and are similar enough that it involved simply editing, adding some Hebrew culture and names
  1. I asked for the Ugarit sources that you claim to exist.
  2. To suggest that the differences between the Gilgamesh and Noah Flood narratives is simply the addition of "some Hebrew culture and names" is at best painfully ignorant.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
I would be thrilled to no end to engage in a serious discussion of the subject and will answer every question that you may ask me with plausible, verifiable answers, starting with the ones you asked above....IF, you are willing to respond in the same manner to me, are you game or do you only want to ask your questions and present your talking points? So, what say you Deidre?

You seem like a kind man, Ted Evans. So, yes...I'll talk with you about this. :blush: (So long as it actually is a discussion, and not a preaching session. lol Okay?)
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
  1. I asked for the Ugarit sources that you claim to exist.
Equivalent Creation and flood myths exist in Ugarit and Canaanite writings, and they all predate the Genesis versions. More to follow . . .

  1. To suggest that the differences between the Gilgamesh and Noah Flood narratives is simply the addition of "some Hebrew culture and names" is at best painfully ignorant.

It is painfully ignorant to reject this relationship because of significant similarities even in the wording. It is recognized as a direct link and the origin of the Genesis account by many academic Biblical historians. The time of the Jewish exile predates the Hebrew Pentateuch and the Hebrews were obviously very much aware the Babylonian texts.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
It is painfully ignorant to reject this relationship because of significant similarities even in the wording.
This is dishonest. You did not simply claim a relationship between the two (and nowhere did I reject the existence of one). Rather, you claimed the Genesis account to be no more that the earlier narrative achieved by "simply editing, adding some Hebrew culture and names."

It is recognized as a direct link and the origin of the Genesis account by many academic Biblical historians.
And by me as well. Stop moving the goalposts.

The time of the Jewish exile predates the Hebrew Pentateuch and the Hebrews were obviously very much aware the Babylonian texts.
Ugarit?
 

Magus

Active Member
The Old Testament lies about everything, including the identity of the Hebrews,
how did the Canaanite turn into Hebrews, the Old Testament doesn't answer that simple question and the people brought into Babylonian captivity, are all of them 'Hebrews'?

What is the difference between a Hebrew and a Canaanite?, the language is similar, Hebrew is Canaanite written in Imperial Aramaic that was implemented under Darius I, this is when the 'Hebrew' language was formed.

The people whom went into Egyptian captivity in Exodus, are known as 'Hebrews', but this is a retelling of the Babylonian exile-exodus and this was a lie too and the lie is exposed in Herodotus.

Herodotus (Book 3, Chpt. 97):
Gifts were also required of the Colchians and their neighbours as far as the Caucasus mountains...these were rendered every four years and are still rendered, namely, a hundred boys and as many maids.

Colchians are 'Iberians' (Hebrews) , these were made into colonists, settling in Elephantine and Palestine, the Pharaoh of the Exodus was King Sesostris but history knows him as Darius I.
 

Ted Evans

Active Member
Premium Member
You seem like a kind man, Ted Evans. So, yes...I'll talk with you about this. :blush: (So long as it actually is a discussion, and not a preaching session. lol Okay?)

Just to be clear, are you agreeing to answer all questions that I may ask with plausible, verifiable answers as I am willing to do for you? Please, a yes or no answer and if it is yes I will start with your questions, fair? BTW. I get my sermons from my church and have very little interest in them on forums, so I promise not to preach but I do ask many questions.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
  1. I asked for the Ugarit sources that you claim to exist.

Many of the concepts names of Gods, and association with the Ugarit/Canaanite beliefs were covered in this thread. You rejected my sources and argument then and I do not see why it would be any different now,

Any way more to follow. . .
 

Ted Evans

Active Member
Premium Member
The Old Testament lies about everything, including the identity of the Hebrews,

There you go, proof positive that the OT is all lies so all Jewish and Christians can get rid of the OT. That will certainly save time.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I'm sorry. There were too many with too many newbies anxious to impress.

As for members: there is one whose name I can't seem to recall - Angellous something (?) - who is degreed and exceptionally bright. He's also pretty good at the guitar.

Sorry I don't have more to give you.
Yes, it seems that he is no loger a member so I can't search through his posts.
 
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