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Is Jesus God?.

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
A particular church (that I really liked and attended men's bible study and had many friends) required a signed document to become a member, spelling out your beliefs and stating your responsibilities. I did not join, but have recently moved to a new state. We're attending the same denomination here at the present time, but still looking for another.

They wanted you to sign a document? No one in the New Testament ever said anything about having to sign a document. I agree with you, I would just not join that denomination. Demanding that you sign a document isn't something Jesus would do.
 
Traditional Christianity or rather what is called 'Christendom' ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only )
Before John 10:30 doesn't Jesus already say at John 10:29 that his Father is greater than ALL.
I wonder why people stop at John 10:30 and do Not continue reading down to John 10:36.
I wonder why people do Not consider what John 1:18 says that No man has seen God at any time.
If Jesus was God, then how does one explain that people could see Jesus if God can't be seen by man.
(John 6:46; 1 John 4:12; Exodus 33:20)
For the record John wrote at John 1:34 that John himself believes Jesus is Son, and repeats that at John 20:31
For the record John wrote that Nathanael believed Jesus to be Son at John 1:49
For the record John wrote that Peter as spokesman for the disciple wrote Jesus is Son at John 6:68-69
For the record John wrote that Martha believed Jesus to be Son at John 11:27
For the record John wrote that Jesus said his Father was greater than Jesus at John 14:28.
So, to me first-century Christianity teaches that Jesus is God's Son.

John 1:1-3,10-12, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Traditional Christianity or rather what is called 'Christendom' ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only )
Before John 10:30 doesn't Jesus already say at John 10:29 that his Father is greater than ALL.
I wonder why people stop at John 10:30 and do Not continue reading down to John 10:36.
I wonder why people do Not consider what John 1:18 says that No man has seen God at any time.
If Jesus was God, then how does one explain that people could see Jesus if God can't be seen by man.
(John 6:46; 1 John 4:12; Exodus 33:20)
For the record John wrote at John 1:34 that John himself believes Jesus is Son, and repeats that at John 20:31
For the record John wrote that Nathanael believed Jesus to be Son at John 1:49
For the record John wrote that Peter as spokesman for the disciple wrote Jesus is Son at John 6:68-69
For the record John wrote that Martha believed Jesus to be Son at John 11:27
For the record John wrote that Jesus said his Father was greater than Jesus at John 14:28.
So, to me first-century Christianity teaches that Jesus is God's Son.
'Son', is part of the godhood, which is singular pluralistic.
Genesis 1:26
The man incarnation, via Mary, in Israel, is a manifestation of YHWH, the part of the godhood that is what is described as 'YHWH Elohim', elsewhere in the text.
Hebrews 8:1-12
According to these verses, in your theory, Jesus would have been the creator, and would have made the first Covenant with the Israelites, and would have led the Israelites out of Egypt. If Jesus were the son of God, yet not God, then why are the verses in the O.T. ,all referring to God, as having done these things?
Is the o.t. wrong?
Is the book of Hebrews made up?
Is it all so metaphoric, that deity concepts have literally no meaning, Biblically?

If the father is always formless, why does He have a throne?


/how much of the bible is "metaphor", for you?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Psalms 82:1,6
"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judge the among the gods...I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
John 10:34-36
"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
Genesis 3:22
"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil."

As far as Genesis 3:22 goes God did Not learn what was bad by doing bad as Adam did. (Psalms 92:14-15)
Rather, Adam would now judge what was good or evil by placing his judgement above God's judgement as to what was right or wrong. Adam himself thus became the 'law of the land' over what God had established.
At Genesis 2:17 Adam was already taught the evil was death. You eat, you die.

The 'gods' (lower-case letter 'g') of Psalms 82 I find is referring to human judges. see also Exodus 4:16; Exodus 7:1.
Human judges because they were to use God's judgements to judge what is right or wrong.

Any comments about Philippians 3:19.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
John 1:1-3,10-12, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
.................................

Agree Jesus had a beginning, According to John at Revelation 3:14 Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God.
So, only God was before the beginning according to Psalms 90:2
That means to me that Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
Also, when KJV translated John 1:1 they left out the letter 'a, but at Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B they added the 'a'.
So, even though the same Greek grammar rules applies in both verses KJV made different choices.

Agree that ALL things were made by Jesus as stated at Colossians 1:15-16
The pre-human heavenly Jesus is part of the 'us' of Genesis 1:26 before God sent Jesus to Earth.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Before I log off and run away and hide, let me ask a question.
To those who believe the trinity, do you know when, how, and where it originated?
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Agree Jesus had a beginning, According to John at Revelation 3:14 Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God.
So, only God was before the beginning according to Psalms 90:2
That means to me that Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
Also, when KJV translated John 1:1 they left out the letter 'a, but at Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B they added the 'a'.
So, even though the same Greek grammar rules applies in both verses KJV made different choices.

Agree that ALL things were made by Jesus as stated at Colossians 1:15-16
The pre-human heavenly Jesus is part of the 'us' of Genesis 1:26 before God sent Jesus to Earth.

I agree with all you have said here.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Before I log off and run away and hide, let me ask a question.
To those who believe the trinity, do you know when, how, and where it originated?

The Ante-Nicene Fathers asserted Christ's deity and spoke of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", even though their language is not that of the traditional doctrine as formalised in the fourth century.

Trinity - Wikipedia

This article on Wikipedia covers it in detail.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
More from that article:

Tertullian, a Latin theologian who wrote in the early 3rd century, is credited as being the first to use the Latin words "Trinity",[26] "person" and "substance"[27] to explain that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "one in essence—not one in Person"
 

Tammie

Member
Gerry said:

One more thing. John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through me."
Why would we need to go 'through' Jesus to get to God if Jesus is God?...

And …..Neither of us ever had a concept of a trinity until a couple years ago when we decided to try to find a church …..

For your first question - you can't go through Christ if the Father does not draw you,

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
In our puffed up minds we think we choose God, but he chooses us.

John 15:16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

The trinity is a doctrine and taught from main stream churches
As far as the trinity, I do not have very much of a concept of this thought either. The Holy Spirit did not become a Father until he had a Son.

The most important thing, though, is recognizing that Jesus/Yeshua is the Son of God. After this, you can begin your relationship with him....and as you read the scriptures for yourself, the Father will lead you into His truth.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Gerry said:

One more thing. John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through me."
Why would we need to go 'through' Jesus to get to God if Jesus is God?...

And …..Neither of us ever had a concept of a trinity until a couple years ago when we decided to try to find a church …..

For your first question - you can't go through Christ if the Father does not draw you,

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
In our puffed up minds we think we choose God, but he chooses us.

John 15:16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

The trinity is a doctrine and taught from main stream churches
As far as the trinity, I do not have very much of a concept of this thought either. The Holy Spirit did not become a Father until he had a Son.

The most important thing, though, is recognizing that Jesus/Yeshua is the Son of God. After this, you can begin your relationship with him....and as you read the scriptures for yourself, the Father will lead you into His truth.

Well said, Tammie.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Traditional Christianity or rather what is called 'Christendom' ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only )
Before John 10:30 doesn't Jesus already say at John 10:29 that his Father is greater than ALL.
I wonder why people stop at John 10:30 and do Not continue reading down to John 10:36.
I wonder why people do Not consider what John 1:18 says that No man has seen God at any time.
If Jesus was God, then how does one explain that people could see Jesus if God can't be seen by man.
(John 6:46; 1 John 4:12; Exodus 33:20)
For the record John wrote at John 1:34 that John himself believes Jesus is Son, and repeats that at John 20:31
For the record John wrote that Nathanael believed Jesus to be Son at John 1:49
For the record John wrote that Peter as spokesman for the disciple wrote Jesus is Son at John 6:68-69
For the record John wrote that Martha believed Jesus to be Son at John 11:27
For the record John wrote that Jesus said his Father was greater than Jesus at John 14:28.
So, to me first-century Christianity teaches that Jesus is God's Son.

These scriptures give me peace in what I believe.
Unlike 'tradition', which has been a source of dispute.
My wife always likes to point out, condemnation and confusion are not from God, but from the other one.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
These scriptures give me peace in what I believe.
Unlike 'tradition', which has been a source of dispute.
My wife always likes to point out, condemnation and confusion are not from God, but from the other one.

Your wife sounds wise.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Gerry said:

One more thing. John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through me."
Why would we need to go 'through' Jesus to get to God if Jesus is God?...

That theory would mean that no person in the Old Testament, knew God.
 
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Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Firstly, when Jesus in the meridian of time came, he fulfilled his first mission as a Savior. When he returns he will return in all his glory and destroy the wicked Gentile nations for causing the world to sin. Israel will have been gathered by then, and the Messiah will stand upon mount Olivet and cleave it in two. Jews will see him and accept their Messiah. War shall be done away, and the whole world shall worship the Lord their God and know his name.
So in other words: Yes, he never did a single one of the things messiah is supposed to do. So why should we believe him?
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Firstly, I am guessing you are of the house of Judah?
I am a Noahide. The Temple is going to be a real, bricks and mortar building in Jerusalem. The same as the other two Temples that preceded it. This is a specific Temple. The Book of Ezekiel has chapters dedicated to it.

"In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was struck down, on that very day, the hand of the L-rd was upon me, and He brought me there. He brought me, in visions of G-d, to the land of Israel, and set me down upon a very high mountain, on which was a structure like a city to the south. When He brought me there, a man was there, whose appearance shone like bronze, with a linen cord and a measuring reed in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway. The man said to me, 'Mortal, look closely and listen attentively, and set your mind upon all that I shall show you, for you were brought here in order that I might show it to you; declare all that you see to the house of Israel.'
Now there was a wall around the outside of the Temple area." - Ezekiel, 40:1-5.


The rest goes on the describe the Temple, which is being shown where it always will be - in Jerusalem, in Israel.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
No, it wouldn't. The Angel of the Lord and the Commander of the Lord's Host are both thought to be referring to Jesus by many Christian theologians.
That would mean that you would have to believe that Jesus pre-exists the incarnation in Yisrael, and that Jesus is an angel, not a man, or deity-man. Angels aren't people, they can be mistaken for people.
 
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