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Is Jesus God?.

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So God is a God of mercy and justice, without contradiction.

Mercy and justice are antithetical, so you've got a contradiction right there. Justice is getting what you deserve. Mercy is the beneficent suspension of justice.

Furthermore, there is nothing just about eternal torture for failing to believe a poorly made argument for a god, nor any mercy in it being eternal and with zero chance of parole.

Could you think of anything less just or merciful than that?
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
People have different perspectives of course, personally I look at the OT as a pretty odious violent book written by pretty odious ignorant men (I don't mean ignorant in a pejorative sense, just that they were Bronze Age/Iron Age people and they lacked the accumulated shared knowledge we enjoy today). When god drowned all of humanity apart from Noah and his family you didn't see that as tyrannical? Just saying, maybe the Mariconites had something there!;)

Oops, I can't argue about the mass drowning being pretty rough.
God obviously had a point.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

John 14:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.


That's good enough for me.
Sadly, I can't see these as even implying Jesus is God, let alone prove it.
Jesus IS one with the Father, and it is our goal to be the same, but we will not become gods.
Anyone who sees Jesus sees the Father, because as your third verse says, the Son is the radiance of God's glory.
Also, we are told that we cannot see the Father, so seeing the Father reflected in Jesus is what we are given.
Also the third verse says an exact representation of His being, a representation instead of the actual since we are incapable of seeing the actual.

One more thing. John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through me."
Why would we need to go 'through' Jesus to get to God if Jesus is God?

I'm not trying to be a pain, just want to understand.
Some background:
My wife and I both came to know Jesus, NOT through a church setting. Her, decades ago, and me only a few years.
Neither of us ever had a concept of a trinity until a couple years ago when we decided to try to find a church.
We didn't think much of it, until we discovered it was VERY important to the church that we accept it.
Since I question everything in life, I started to do some research, and that's why I am at this baffling place, trying to figure out why most churches make this point such a big thing when as yet I cannot accept it as truth.
 
Building the Temple (Micah 4:1)

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Firstly, I am guessing you are of the house of Judah? I am Latter-day Saint by religion. We believe many of us are of the house of Ephraim. We have a house of the Lord (temple) in Utah, in fact many of them. It is interesting to note that Utah is named by the government after the Ute Indians, and the name means, 'top of the mountains'. It was established by commandment of the Lord. Many nationalities came to settle in Utah, and visit the temple site year by near. The nations have truly flowed to it; to the place where the saints sing songs of everlasting joy.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Sadly, I can't see these as even implying Jesus is God, let alone prove it.
Jesus IS one with the Father, and it is our goal to be the same, but we will not become gods.
Anyone who sees Jesus sees the Father, because as your third verse says, the Son is the radiance of God's glory.
Also, we are told that we cannot see the Father, so seeing the Father reflected in Jesus is what we are given.
Also the third verse says an exact representation of His being, a representation instead of the actual since we are incapable of seeing the actual.

One more thing. John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through me."
Why would we need to go 'through' Jesus to get to God if Jesus is God?

I'm not trying to be a pain, just want to understand.
Some background:
My wife and I both came to know Jesus, NOT through a church setting. Her, decades ago, and me only a few years.
Neither of us ever had a concept of a trinity until a couple years ago when we decided to try to find a church.
We didn't think much of it, until we discovered it was VERY important to the church that we accept it.
Since I question everything in life, I started to do some research, and that's why I am at this baffling place, trying to figure out why most churches make this point such a big thing when as yet I cannot accept it as truth.

Not all churches require you to accept it as truth. As long as you believe in accordance with scripture, John 3 in particular, you are on the right path.

Did you ask the church members to explain it to you and why it is so important that you believe It?

A lot of new Christians and older ones as well have a hard time understanding the trinity. Understand that God is very complex. This link addresses the trinity well and may help:

What does it mean when God said man has become like one of us?
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
I agree that Jesus is Not God, and as Revelation 3:12 shows the resurrected Jesus still has a God over him.

Yes, only God existed before creation thus the God of the Bible is the Creator - Revelation 4:11.
Yes, God has a spirit according to Psalms 104:30 which He uses to accomplish what He wants.

We have the literal or material light such as sun, moon and stars, plus 'spiritual light' (Bible - Psalms 119:105)
Jesus shed spiritual light upon us in that Jesus taught us about spiritual things as found in Scripture.
So, in that enlightened sense, Jesus is the light of the world for us giving us spiritual light from Scripture.
That spiritual light grows brighter and brighter with the passing of time according to Proverbs 4:18.


I appreciate the link to Revelation 3:12.
That seems to be solid evidence against Jesus being God.
Jesus refers to 'my God' numerous times, and it makes no sense that God would have a God.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Mercy and justice are antithetical, so you've got a contradiction right there. Justice is getting what you deserve. Mercy is the beneficent suspension of justice.

Furthermore, there is nothing just about eternal torture for failing to believe a poorly made argument for a god, nor any mercy in it being eternal and with zero chance of parole.

Could you think of anything less just or merciful than that?

But you are obviously aware of what the simple requirement is for you to obtain that mercy. So the choice is yours, not God's.
 
He did not bring world peace and put an end to all war (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6 and Micah 4:3)

The whole world does not know G-d and worship G-d as one (Zephaniah 3:9, Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5)

He did not gather the Jewish exiles (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)

And considering the dodgy geneaology we have, he may not have been from the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10)

And the messiah is also a human who is going to bring offerings to the Temple. So he doesn't have a second chance to come back again and again...

Firstly, when Jesus in the meridian of time came, he fulfilled his first mission as a Savior. When he returns he will return in all his glory and destroy the wicked Gentile nations for causing the world to sin. Israel will have been gathered by then, and the Messiah will stand upon mount Olivet and cleave it in two. Jews will see him and accept their Messiah. War shall be done away, and the whole world shall worship the Lord their God and know his name.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Not all churches require you to accept it as truth. As long as you believe in accordance with scripture, John 3 in particular, you are on the right path.

Did you ask the church members to explain it to you and why it is so important that you believe It?

A lot of new Christians and older ones as well have a hard time understanding the trinity. Understand that God is very complex. This link addresses the trinity well and may help:

What does it mean when God said man has become like one of us?

A particular church (that I really liked and attended men's bible study and had many friends) required a signed document to become a member, spelling out your beliefs and stating your responsibilities. I did not join, but have recently moved to a new state. We're attending the same denomination here at the present time, but still looking for another.
 
Mercy and justice are antithetical, so you've got a contradiction right there.

I think you need to read the rest of my comment which explains how God can be a God of justice and mercy at the same time without contradiction. Don't just read one line. Mercy has become justified by Jesus, an intercessor.

if we don't accept Gods plan of mercy then we have to live under the laws of justice. If we are punished it won't be because God failed to warn us.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I appreciate the link to Revelation 3:12.
That seems to be solid evidence against Jesus being God.
Jesus refers to 'my God' numerous times, and it makes no sense that God would have a God.

You might also want to take a peek at Revelation 3:21 because there are only two (2) thrones mentioned.
If there was a triune god of three persons to me they would need three (3) thrones to be equals.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I am pretty much convinced that Jesus, is not God.
I have spent considerable time studying this topic, and can find no conclusive evidence to prove it to be true.
As a Christian, it is difficult to find a body of believers who will be welcoming unless I have this belief.
I have tried many churches and denominations and so far have been unsuccessful.
Also I have read the Old Testiment completely and most of the New Testament. ( Haven't read Revelations yet. )

Any comments or help appreciated. Mostly wondering why the vast majority of Christians insist that Jesus is God and I must accept that to belong?
Traditional christianity believes that Jesus is God.
John 10:30
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
A particular church (that I really liked and attended men's bible study and had many friends) required a signed document to become a member, spelling out your beliefs and stating your responsibilities. I did not join, but have recently moved to a new state. We're attending the same denomination here at the present time, but still looking for another.

In school I think they called it a Ben Franklin list:
Put what you are taught in one column, and what the Bible teaches in the opposite column. They should match.
The people of Acts of the Apostles 17:11 searched or researched the Scriptures each day to see if what they were hearing or learning was in harmony with Scripture.

The Bible is unique in that it has corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses and passages, thus that is why Jesus often prefaced his statements with "I said....", or "It is written....." meaning already written or recorded in the old Hebrew Scriptures. I think even Jesus' mother made about 20 some references to what was already recorded in the Hebrew. Since the Bible is Not written ABC as a dictionary is, then a comprehensive concordance helps puts the Bible in alphabetical order for us, and helps serve as a quick locater of topics or subjects.
 
You might also want to take a peek at Revelation 3:21 because there are only two (2) thrones mentioned.
If there was a triune god of three persons to me they would need three (3) thrones to be equals.

Psalms 82:1,6
"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judge the among the gods...I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

John 10:34-36
"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

Genesis 3:22
"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil."
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Traditional christianity believes that Jesus is God.
John 10:30
Uses extreme basic math to illustrate this idea, though there are many verses, that infer this. The theism of christianity is singular plurality, and even without the new testament, the people who became christians, would have had this theistic concept.
Genesis 1:26
Hence, by not adhering to either of these ideas, you are not only not a christian, but you are not in the religious configuration of the Israelite theism in which christianity exists.
If this cannot be reconciled, you might want to consider Judaism.

Traditional Christianity or rather what is called 'Christendom' ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only )
Before John 10:30 doesn't Jesus already say at John 10:29 that his Father is greater than ALL.
I wonder why people stop at John 10:30 and do Not continue reading down to John 10:36.
I wonder why people do Not consider what John 1:18 says that No man has seen God at any time.
If Jesus was God, then how does one explain that people could see Jesus if God can't be seen by man.
(John 6:46; 1 John 4:12; Exodus 33:20)
For the record John wrote at John 1:34 that John himself believes Jesus is Son, and repeats that at John 20:31
For the record John wrote that Nathanael believed Jesus to be Son at John 1:49
For the record John wrote that Peter as spokesman for the disciple wrote Jesus is Son at John 6:68-69
For the record John wrote that Martha believed Jesus to be Son at John 11:27
For the record John wrote that Jesus said his Father was greater than Jesus at John 14:28.
So, to me first-century Christianity teaches that Jesus is God's Son.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
I think the animals were wise than humans by drowning themselves rather than accept evil spirits.
The animals didn't have much choice but to be drowned in a global flood though, correct? No 'wisdom' needed.
I'm not being flippant, but does your belief mean that all fish are inhabited by evil spirits?
 
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