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Is Jesus God?.

Magus

Active Member
Mr God convincing Abraham to chop off his Son's foreskin to secure a land agreement, so they could racially and eugenically wipe out Canaanites, even though they are technically Canaanites themselves because a talking Ham peeked into his Dad's tent and saw his penis ( Genesis 9:2 ).

How does one love that?
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
First, I would like to mention that it's one revelation. The Bible book of Revelation is one revelation.
Basically the word revelation means a revealing. Revelation is a revealing about the future time of Revelation 22:2.

It isn't most Christians that insist, but those members of 'Christendom' (Christian mostly 'in name only') who profess Jesus to be Father or God even though the resurrected heavenly Jesus still thinks he has a God over him at Revelation 3:12. Especially when un-faithful Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted their theories or philosophies and began teaching them as Scripture although Not Scripture, so that is why we see so many triads or trinities taught throughout the world's religions and adopted by Christendom.

Jesus recorded words such as found at John 10:36 shows Jesus believed himself to be the Son of God.
According to Luke 4:41 even the demons believed Jesus to be God's Son.
Gospel writer John wrote Revelation. At Revelation 3:14 John wrote Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.
God, according to Psalms 90:2, had No beginning. God was never first born of every creation but the pre-human heavenly Jesus was according to Colossians 1:15.
So, since Jesus had a pre-human heavenly beginning before God sent Jesus to Earth, then Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning, so to me I find Scripture teaches Jesus as Son, before his creation, after his creation, and still Son after God resurrected Jesus and Jesus ascended to heaven- Acts 2:24, 32.

I don't think I follow exactly what you're saying here, but I have concluded the following from Genesis 1:1-3:
1. In the beginning, God created .... meaning God existed prior to creation. Pretty easy so far.
2. The earth was formless and empty ...... , And the Spirit of God was ...... This tells me God has a spirit, but does not imply that this spirit is another person.
3. Then God said "let there be light" and there was light ....
I'm thinking this 'light' is the Messiah. (Who became Jesus)
And He then proceeded to create everything else.
In John 8:12 Jesus says I am the light of the world, so it all seems to fit.
If this is true, Jesus was created and could not be God.

Are you saying something similar using other verses or something entirely different?
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
I didn't get the impression that God was a tyrant reading the OT.
I actually had feelings of feeling sad for God (I know, strange)
.
People have different perspectives of course, personally I look at the OT as a pretty odious violent book written by pretty odious ignorant men (I don't mean ignorant in a pejorative sense, just that they were Bronze Age/Iron Age people and they lacked the accumulated shared knowledge we enjoy today). When god drowned all of humanity apart from Noah and his family you didn't see that as tyrannical? Just saying, maybe the Mariconites had something there!;)
 
I have read the Old and New Testaments over and over again. I have concluded differently than most of you. Both records testify of the divinity of Jesus. There are differing views however about the nature of the Godhead, and have been since the death of the Apostles. I understand the biblical record to amply show Christ was the Son of God, but that he was actually the God of the Old Testament, and that it was Christ who created the world. I think that makes him God don't you?

What I have learned is that when the scriptures say God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, are one, it never says one person. It just says they are one. In his intecessory prayer in John 17, prayers that his disciples may be one with him, in the same way Christ was one with the Father.

Christ says it was him who gave the law to Moses on the mount. Also, you will notice in the Genesis creation account, God is talking to someone with him, for example, when Adam fell, the Lord said: "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." The Father and the Son were present at these events, working as one. The Hebrew word used in Genesis for God is Elohim, which is plural for Elohe, God. While the use of 'us' and 'we' in the creation account amply signifies plurality, the Jews claim the plurality of the title 'Elohim' is in his infinite greatness.

However, it makes more sense in considering the nature of God as described in the New Testament by John in John chapter 1:

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I'm rolling with the Jews and Muslims on this one......

I cannot conceive a deity who designed the universe (or multiple universes) with billions of galaxies would need an actual son to redeem the world and much lesser mankind. it would seem, I do not need another man whom I've never met, who is not even a part of my culture who probably wouldn't even understand my language to redeem me. Out of all the beings in the universe to choose from God chooses a human being as his son? It sounds implausible.
 
I cannot conceive a deity who designed the universe (or multiple universes) with billions of galaxies would need an actual son to redeem the world and much lesser mankind.

It may be because you don't understand why Jesus had to redeem us.

God the Father is a God of justice. Justice means where a law is broken a punishment is assigned. Even the laws of nature are based on the laws of justice--cause and effect. How can God have mercy then if he is a God of justice? By showing mercy, justice would be undone, because to impose no punishment means no justice. So how can God be a just God and a merciful God at the same time? He sent a third party into the relationship of God and man, and he is the Son of God. Jesus suffered the consequence of our law-breaking, so that we will not have to suffer it in eternity.

There is one provision to accessing Christs intercession for our wrongs, and that is to accept Christ as our creditor and follow his path.

We break God's law, Justice is served by Jesus who suffering the punishment by proxy; and Mercy is shown to us so that we can repent and return to God in the eternities.

So God is a God of mercy and justice, without contradiction.

To say that a Savior is not needed, is cutting yourself off from God's mercy and love, and putting yourself in the grips of justice.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

John 14:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.


That's good enough for me.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
It may be because you don't understand why Jesus had to redeem us.

God the Father is a God of justice. Justice means where a law is broken a punishment is assigned. Even the laws of nature are based on the laws of justice--cause and effect. How can God have mercy then if he is a God of justice? By showing mercy, justice would be undone, because to impose no punishment means no justice. So how can God be a just God and a merciful God at the same time? He sent a third party into the relationship of God and man, and he is the Son of God. Jesus suffered the consequence of our law-breaking, so that we will not have to suffer it in eternity.

There is one provision to accessing Christs intercession for our wrongs, and that is to accept Christ as our creditor and follow his path.

We break God's law, Justice is served by Jesus who suffering the punishment by proxy; and Mercy is shown to us so that we can repent and return to God in the eternities.

So God is a God of mercy and justice, without contradiction.

To say that a Savior is not needed, is cutting yourself off from God's mercy and love, and putting yourself in the grips of justice.

So God (The Father) is incapable of saving me himself?
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
If God the Father was incapable of saving us, he would not have sent his Only Begotten. No man comes to the Father but by me, Christ said. He is the way, the truth, and the life.


No my criticism with this line of thinking is why can't God himself redeem me? Why must he need an intermediary?
 
why can't God himself redeem me? Why must he need an intermediary?

I know what you are asking. But it doesn't matter how, it just matters that God the Father has saved you by using an intermediary. Because man fell, they cannot be saved by the laws of justice; and God must administer justice, so saving us by justice is out of the question, because man willingly sins. God cannot save us in our sins. So the Father's plan of mercy was put in place by the Father so he could save us from our sins. Jesus said he was not fulfilling his own will, but the will of his Father who sent him. God the Father implemented it all.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Such as how may I ask? Which prophesies does Jesus not fulfil?
Building the Temple (Micah 4:1)

He did not bring world peace and put an end to all war (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6 and Micah 4:3)

The whole world does not know G-d and worship G-d as one (Zephaniah 3:9, Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5)

He did not gather the Jewish exiles (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)

And considering the dodgy geneaology we have, he may not have been from the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10)

And the messiah is also a human who is going to bring offerings to the Temple. So he doesn't have a second chance to come back again and again...
 

Magus

Active Member
Isaiah 11:12
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the Four corners of the earth.

Cyrus Cylinder ( 539 BCE)

I am Cyrus, King of the World, Great King, Mighty King, King of Babylon, King of Sumer and Akkad, King of the Four Quarters

The Hebrew word for Quarter is -כָּנָף- (Kanaph) meaning Wing and as you can see, King Cyrus is depicted with four wings.
220px-Olympic_Park_Cyrus.jpg


Cyrus is God. Jesus is not.
-

 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I don't think I follow exactly what you're saying here, but I have concluded the following from Genesis 1:1-3:
1. In the beginning, God created .... meaning God existed prior to creation. Pretty easy so far.
2. The earth was formless and empty ...... , And the Spirit of God was ...... This tells me God has a spirit, but does not imply that this spirit is another person.
3. Then God said "let there be light" and there was light ....
I'm thinking this 'light' is the Messiah. (Who became Jesus)
And He then proceeded to create everything else.
In John 8:12 Jesus says I am the light of the world, so it all seems to fit.
If this is true, Jesus was created and could not be God.
Are you saying something similar using other verses or something entirely different?

I agree that Jesus is Not God, and as Revelation 3:12 shows the resurrected Jesus still has a God over him.

Yes, only God existed before creation thus the God of the Bible is the Creator - Revelation 4:11.
Yes, God has a spirit according to Psalms 104:30 which He uses to accomplish what He wants.

We have the literal or material light such as sun, moon and stars, plus 'spiritual light' (Bible - Psalms 119:105)
Jesus shed spiritual light upon us in that Jesus taught us about spiritual things as found in Scripture.
So, in that enlightened sense, Jesus is the light of the world for us giving us spiritual light from Scripture.
That spiritual light grows brighter and brighter with the passing of time according to Proverbs 4:18.
 

Magus

Active Member
Revelation isn't actually talking about 'Jesus - Christ, the name "Jesus-Christ" is a double-title , Yesha -יֵשַׁע- ( Victory and deliverer ) and 'Christ' ( Chrestos - Mazdah ), most likely a Persian word confused with the word meaning 'to smear in oil', both of which describe King Cyrus ( The God of Abraham) .


Revelation 16:12
And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water there of was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Isaiah 44:27-8

That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure

Revelation, is a retelling of Isaiah, it is anachronistic not prophetic and King Cyrus (King of the East) did in fact dry up the Euphrates, confirmed in Herodotus ( 1.191 )
 
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