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Is there evil in Heaven? If so can Heaven really be perfect?

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I believe God wants what is best for us. I don't consider the loss of evil as the loss of free will but simply the loss of ill will. That is one loss I will gladly bear. Good riddance to bad rubbish. However it is still a choice I make and not everyone chooses good over evil. The ideal would be to be able to choose that which is good myself without help from God.

So you lose an essential part of you? You would become hamstrung, or only a piece of the original you, in your scenario.

That isn't really you anymore, is it? At best, it's a kind of simulation of what you once were-- without the really Interesting Bits attached. A kind of black-and-white photo, where the original was in full color.

We *are* the sum of all our parts, all our experiences-- and all our choices. Is it not our choices that set us apart from one another? One brother chooses to do evil, whereas another brother from the same upbringing chooses to do good? Both come from the same roots.

If you remove all desire to do wrongful things? That is Brainwashing/Programming -- not free will at all.

Unless the choice is there-- you are just a robot. And you cannot have choice without at least a tiny, itty-bitty bit of desire.

I thought god did not want a bunch of mindless robots!
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Is there Evil in Heaven?

If the answer is NO. The Consequences are .... Bad.

# There can be no eating in Heaven. If you eat, eventually, you have to "go". Excrement is considered bad or evil-- so No Eating In Heaven.

# There can be no drinking in Heaven. If you drink? Eventually you have to pee. Urine is bad or evil-- so No Drinking In Heaven (no-- not even water) ((no no sweating, either- sweat stinks, stink is bad/evil. No sweating allowed))

# There will be No Sports of Any Kind in Heaven. A Sport is an activity of Competition. To Compete, means there will be a Winner and a Loser. Losing is Bad/Evil. We Can't Have That-- so no real sports in Heaven.

# There will be No Games of any worth in Heaven. See: Sports. Real games have winners and losers. Nope. No Trivial Pursuit. No Monopoly. No Bridge. No Poker. Not even Tiddly-Winks or Shoots And Ladders!

# No Gambling in Heaven. Is it really gambling, if you cannot possibly lose? No.

# Will There Be Art In Heaven? Not really. Good Art comes from Angst and Suffering. I expect all the Really Good Artists are all in Hell anyway--- they wouldn't' have it any other way. So, maybe some Paint By Numbers of Clouds and Flowers. That's about IT for Art in Heaven.

# Will There Be Sex in Heaven? Well... No. Sex is Bad, mm'kay? So probably not. Sex is Original Sin, after all....

# Will There Be Movies in Heaven? Yes. But only triple-G rated. And only ones without any conflict. Think: See Dick Run. Run, Dick, Run. See Jane Run. Run, Jane, Run. That sort of thing. No-- not even Winnie The Pooh. Winnie was... conflicted.

In short? Most of the things for which people find Meaning Of Life? Won't happen in heaven.
 

eldios

Active Member
This is an actual question. I argue that evil can exist in Heaven.
Lucifer was a pillar of Heaven's community. Lucifer was known as the most beautiful angel until while in heaven he turned against God and raised an army.

God is arguably perfect because he is without evil. Heaven can not be perfect if it can have evil inside of it.

Can you argue these points? Lucifer turned against God while in Heaven and under the influence of Heaven. Heaven, therefore, can have evil and is thus not perfect.

There's nothing to worry about. The plan is to delete the information that causes "good and evil" from the program on the day of the Lord. That's when the false prophet ( Satan ) and the beast will be burned up in the Lake of Fire. But all flesh called human beings have to burn up on that day, too.

Revelation 19
17: Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, "Come, gather for the great supper of God,
18: to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great."
19: And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who sits upon the horse and against his army.
20: And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur.
21: And the rest were slain by the sword of him who sits upon the horse, the sword that issues from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.
 

ronandcarol

Member
Premium Member
This is an actual question. I argue that evil can exist in Heaven.
Lucifer was a pillar of Heaven's community. Lucifer was known as the most beautiful angel until while in heaven he turned against God and raised an army.
God is arguably perfect because he is without evil. Heaven can not be perfect if it can have evil inside of it.
Can you argue these points? Lucifer turned against God while in Heaven and under the influence of Heaven. Heaven, therefore, can have evil and is thus not perfect.

This is one of those, Which came first, the chicken or the egg?. You are correct in saying that God is perfect, and He cannot have any sin in Heaven. That is probably why satan and his followers are not there anymore! I doubt very much if there will be any sin in Heaven during eternity because all who go to heaven will be sanctified and righteous and Holy, therefore will not sin.
ronandcarol
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
This is an actual question. I argue that evil can exist in Heaven.
Lucifer was a pillar of Heaven's community. Lucifer was known as the most beautiful angel until while in heaven he turned against God and raised an army.

God is arguably perfect because he is without evil. Heaven can not be perfect if it can have evil inside of it.

Can you argue these points? Lucifer turned against God while in Heaven and under the influence of Heaven. Heaven, therefore, can have evil and is thus not perfect.

I'd assume evil actions lead to self destruction, or at least pain, regrets, mental, maybe physical suffering.

Folks in heaven would have no desire to commit these acts. Why would they act against their own best interest.

You have free will to beat yourself in the head with a hammer. If you have no desire to do these, does it mean you have no free will?

Free will is being able to do what you want to do. In heaven no one would want to do evil acts.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
Based on what I know, evil is a consequence of rebelling against God, or trying to be equal or superior to God. In heaven, Satan, the rebellious angel, formed a worship circle and attacked and hurt the other angels. Subsequently, God created the universe as Satan's prison. Since Satan was imprisoned, he has not been back to heaven. Satan has, however, made attempts to escape the universe to return to heaven. This is were it gets really weird, like science fiction. Science has found dark ugly scars on the boundary of the universe. They are from attacks by Satan to escape the universe and return to heaven. There is only one rebellious angel, those legions of rebellious angels don't exist. Satan was the thirteenth angel. What remains in heaven is God and twelve angels. It is interesting, thirteen is an unlucky number and twelve is found throughout the Bible and in our everyday world. As for the issue of freewill, after God created an angel, He tossed it out into heaven. The angel had a choice of roaming around heaven or coming back to become part of the God's worship circle.

In short, evil is a consequence of rejecting God, or attempting to be a "god." The big problem with trying to become a god is it is a dark empty road full of nothingness. A creature has no power to create anything! Creatures can do things like invent or alter their environments. Satan's means of existence seems to be to subvert, deceive, hurt, and destroy God's creatures. It is a constant battle, God emits holiness, Satan attacks and destroys. Satanists strive to become rebellious creatures. The problem for Satanists is they are mortal creatures with limited life spans. Satan, a dark evil force, was created to be immortal. Subsequently, Satan will remain in it's prison until the end of time. Then, things will return back to the period when God was not threatened by a rebellious angel. Perhaps, it is more than you wanted to hear, just thought I'd put it out there.
 
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Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
This is an actual question. I argue that evil can exist in Heaven.
Lucifer was a pillar of Heaven's community. Lucifer was known as the most beautiful angel until while in heaven he turned against God and raised an army.

God is arguably perfect because he is without evil. Heaven can not be perfect if it can have evil inside of it.

Can you argue these points? Lucifer turned against God while in Heaven and under the influence of Heaven. Heaven, therefore, can have evil and is thus not perfect.
Angels were given free will as we also were. Free will is the most dangerous 'substance' in all reality.It was then a certainty, 100%, that someone in heaven, on earth, would disobey and do their own thing. Thus, from the beginning, there was a knowledge by God that someone, somewhere, sometime, would become - evil. (Here, I must again insist that God is not omniscient about all future events, free will prevents that.)

It is by no means certain that satan was known as Lucifer in heaven previously. That cannot be asserted by scripture. Now, after he has turned evil, he is making himself into seemingly an angel of light to deceive.

Since the problem first began in heaven, God is also cleaning this place up first. Once it has been cleaned up, the problem can no longer occur twice. This has to do with being perfect. It also has to do with legal precedent.

I am not certain, but there is scriptural indication that satan is still having access to heaven right now together with his angels; but, the time for him to be thrown out is very near.
 

arthra

Baha'i
This is an actual question. I argue that evil can exist in Heaven.
Lucifer was a pillar of Heaven's community. Lucifer was known as the most beautiful angel until while in heaven he turned against God and raised an army.
God is arguably perfect because he is without evil. Heaven can not be perfect if it can have evil inside of it.
Can you argue these points? Lucifer turned against God while in Heaven and under the influence of Heaven. Heaven, therefore, can have evil and is thus not perfect.

I think the mythology of the war in heaven with Lucifer, et. al. is a bit over done... also maybe the idea that heaven is "perfection". What we believe is that heaven is nearness to God... as much as we are capable... heaven. While "hell" is remoteness from God. Satan or Lucifer the devil is a figure symbolic of our lower urges and appetites rather than a being at war with God.
 

Aiviu

Active Member
This is an actual question. I argue that evil can exist in Heaven.
Lucifer was a pillar of Heaven's community. Lucifer was known as the most beautiful angel until while in heaven he turned against God and raised an army.

God is arguably perfect because he is without evil. Heaven can not be perfect if it can have evil inside of it.

Can you argue these points? Lucifer turned against God while in Heaven and under the influence of Heaven. Heaven, therefore, can have evil and is thus not perfect.

To live his own self was his desired denial against life in heaven. And God knew lucifer will recognize that he will find out which life he is able to live with his self. God could make lucifers life eternal if He would be with lucifer again. But that was Lucifers point. The own self was lucifers importance.

To live through God towards others is life in heaven. Our life never can be the same as God's Will when one lives through the self. When the self follows a Will which is the same as God's Will, just that he continues to live after death, then there must be the death of the self. One self is free from the self.

What remains he is, is who he wished himself to be. And he could be it all the time.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
This is an actual question. I argue that evil can exist in Heaven.
Lucifer was a pillar of Heaven's community. Lucifer was known as the most beautiful angel until while in heaven he turned against God and raised an army.

God is arguably perfect because he is without evil. Heaven can not be perfect if it can have evil inside of it.

Can you argue these points? Lucifer turned against God while in Heaven and under the influence of Heaven. Heaven, therefore, can have evil and is thus not perfect.
The meek shall inherit THE EARTH -and then the rest of the creation.

Heaven is not the reward of the saved.

There are three heavens in the bible. One is the atmosphere/sky -one is space/the rest of the universe -and the third is the specific location of the throne of God at this time (God is essentially everything, so the throne is basically a focal point, as he technically represents himself within himself).

God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil -as he created new, inexperienced beings who would inevitably err as they learned, gained experience and mastered their own existence.

If any are completely incorrigible, it is possible that they be completely destroyed in "Gehenna", but the lake of fire is actually and primarily the final part of the process of purification.

God is "as a refiner's fire"

As it says, we will be judged according to our works, but we will be saved -and some will be saved "yet so as by fire" if their works were not worthy of eternal life at the time.

God gave the creation -including "heaven" -over to futility.
However, it should be noted that Satan was generally cast out from the presence of God after he led the rebellion against God's throne.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
....and the sons of God gathered to present themselves
and with them came the devil....

Job

I find it interesting the conversation that followed
as the sons of God have no dialog
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
This is an actual question. I argue that evil can exist in Heaven.
Lucifer was a pillar of Heaven's community. Lucifer was known as the most beautiful angel until while in heaven he turned against God and raised an army.

God is arguably perfect because he is without evil. Heaven can not be perfect if it can have evil inside of it.

Can you argue these points? Lucifer turned against God while in Heaven and under the influence of Heaven. Heaven, therefore, can have evil and is thus not perfect.

True. However, we are told in the Revelation that God will do away with both heaven and Earth and that He will create a new heaven and a new Earth. There will be no more Satan and no more evil.
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
Even Faith were fallen, even Love were fallen. Then again Lucifer was right all along then, saving the all of them.
 
If you remove all desire to do wrongful things?



I do believe they have meds for removing all desire to do wrongful things. In old halfway houses they had a surgical method called lobotomy. They'd shove a needle through your tear ducts and pump acid onto your brain until you were a harmless child mentally.

See Muffled. You can experience what loss of all evil intention looks like by flipping through a history book on insane asylums.
I really encourage you to do that because they had many methods.
 
There's nothing to worry about. The plan is to delete the information that causes "good and evil" from the program on the day of the Lord. That's when the false prophet ( Satan ) and the beast will be burned up in the Lake of Fire. But all flesh called human beings have to burn up on that day, too.

Revelation 19
17: Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, "Come, gather for the great supper of God,
18: to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great."
19: And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who sits upon the horse and against his army.
20: And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur.
21: And the rest were slain by the sword of him who sits upon the horse, the sword that issues from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.
So if I was good and worshiped, God would upon my death reach into my brain and rip out important knowledge without my permission? I'm sorry but I won't allow that. I'd rather go to hell and keep my intellect than go to heaven and have important knowledge stolen. That isn't an insult either, that's a life choice.

I'd rather be a good person and not worship and experience unending pain. Than be a good person and sign over half of who I am to get to experience bliss.
 
This is one of those, Which came first, the chicken or the egg?. You are correct in saying that God is perfect, and He cannot have any sin in Heaven. That is probably why satan and his followers are not there anymore! I doubt very much if there will be any sin in Heaven during eternity because all who go to heaven will be sanctified and righteous and Holy, therefore will not sin.
ronandcarol
"All who go to heaven will be sanctified and righteous and holy, therefore will not sin"

Lucifer was Sanctified, he was righteous, and he was holy, yet he performed the real first evil act. What is your point?

"We'll be too happy to want to do evil"
What about the verses I literally quoted. In those a man in heaven overcame his joy to look sadly on a man in hell. We will be thinking, and we will have a choice just as Abraham had a choice to send him water.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
"All who go to heaven will be sanctified and righteous and holy, therefore will not sin"

Lucifer was Sanctified, he was righteous, and he was holy, yet he performed the real first evil act. What is your point?

"We'll be too happy to want to do evil"
What about the verses I literally quoted. In those a man in heaven overcame his joy to look sadly on a man in hell. We will be thinking, and we will have a choice just as Abraham had a choice to send him water.

Actually, Abraham didn't have that choice. Read that scripture again.
 
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