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Is Christianity coherent?

Is there a good reason why everything happens in the Christian worldview?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 28.6%
  • No

    Votes: 15 71.4%

  • Total voters
    21

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's rather pointless having a discussion, if you are going to rely solely on the Bible and ignore all the Christian texts, giving us a very different picture.

Jesus pbuh spoke Aramaic. He would have known Hebrew to study the Torah and no doubt some Greek phrases to get by in life under Roman occupation. The Dead Sea Scrolls containing the oldest incomplete Torah show the Scriptures were written in a mix of Aramaic and Hebrew.

"Jewish Palestinian Aramaic – In use from 200 bce to 200 ce, Jewish Palestinian Aramaic was likely Judea’s primary language at the time of Jesus and the early Christians. "

The Dead Sea Scrolls - Languages and Scripts

"While the majority of Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew, the collection also includes many Aramaic and Greek texts, as well as some Arabic texts and a small number of Latin fragments."

Do you accept the majority Scholarly consensus, Jesus pbuh spoke Aramaic?



Who exactly was God addressing in Deuteronomy 18:18, was it all of mankind or a specific group of people?
I have total love for truth, as I value my soul in the hereafter, and believe Hell to be a literal place reserved for those who refuse to listen to God's commands.

Jesus never studied the Torah. He knew the Torah because he was the author of it incarnate. As a child Jesus knew the Torah better than the wise men. Jesus could open the Torah to whatever passage he wanted to find, since he was no ordinary man.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes exactly, no Jew knows how to pronounce the name of God.

"ehyeh-asher-ehyeh" is interpreted by some authorities as "I will be because I will be," using the second part as a gloss and referring to God's promise, "Certainly I will be [ehyeh] with thee" (Ex. iii. 12). Other authorities claim that the whole phrase forms one name. The Targum Onḳelos leaves the phrase untranslated and is so quoted in the Talmud (B. B. 73a). The "I AM THAT I AM"

This sounds more like a statement of being rather than a personal name for the Divine.
NAMES OF GOD - JewishEncyclopedia.com

The earliest known use of a form of YHWH is on stone stele in an older Canaanite-Ugarite scrip, which was the origin of primitive Hebrew, and not Arabic nor a primative form of Arabic.

As per the article and other sources Arabic existed when the Jews were happy to various many Gods. The Dead Sea Scrolls revealed a prayer parchment given to a Persian King from a Jewish diviner; Prayer of Nabonidus Dead Sea Scrolls - 4Q242 in Aramaic

Scholars dispute the exact translation of the prayer given. One reading is as follows:
Frags. 1-3 1The words of the pra[y]er of Nabonidus, king of Babylon, [the great] kin[g, when he was smitten] 2with a severe inflammation at the command of G[o]d, in Teima.

[I, Nabonidus,] was smitten [with a severe inflammation] 3lasting seven years. Beca[use] I was thus changed, [becoming like a beast, I prayed to the Most High,] 4and He forgave my sins. An exorcist a Jew, in fact, a mem[ber of the community of exiles came to me and said,] 5“Declare and write down this story, and so ascribe glory and gre[at]ness to the name of G[od Most High.” Accordingly, I have myself written it down:] 6I was smitten with a severe inflammation while in Teima, [by the command of God Most High. Then] 7for seven years I continued praying [to] the gods made of silver and gold, [bronze, iron,] 8wood, stone, and clay, for I [used to th]ink that th[ey] really were gods.

The Healing of King Nabonindus 4Q242

Aramaic remains a later language than when YHWH is known to be used.

Do you consider Aramaic primitive Arabic?

Actually if you look at relationship between the Western Semitic languages, Arabic is not considered a descendant of Aramaic. It evolved independently in Arabian region. Hebrew is considered a direct descendant of Canaanite/Ugarite language and script, and not Aramaic.

What's the word for God in Aramaic?

You should know before you ask:

The Aramaic word for "God" in the language of Assyrian Christians is ʼĔlāhā, or Alaha. Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God". The Christian Arabs of today have no other word for "God" than "Allah".

In the Semitic languages similar vocabulary does not necessarily mean direct linguistic descendant. Most linguists do not consider Arabic a descendant of Aramaic.

We know the prayer was found amongst a Monotheistic Jewish Community.

The prayer is later than the known origin of YHWH in Canaanite-Ugarite script.

Which Prophecies does the Qur'an say Jesus pbuh fulfilled?

Your more knowledgeable about the Qur'an than I. The Qur'an considers Jesus a Manifestation of God, a prophet. What are the prophesies the Qur'an or Islamic traditions did Jesus fulfill?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Jesus never studied the Torah. He knew the Torah because he was the author of it incarnate. As a child Jesus knew the Torah better than the wise men. Jesus could open the Torah to whatever passage he wanted to find, since he was no ordinary man.

I do not believe it is known whether Jesus studied the Torah, but consider he quoted scripture and spent time in the temples conversing with the priests, he likely did study the Torah, and was likely literate.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I do not believe it is known whether Jesus studied the Torah, but consider he quoted scripture and spent time in the temples conversing with the priests, he likely did study the Torah, and was likely literate.

He spent his childhood in Egypt since Herod was trying to kill him. He came on the scene teaching the Jewish priests rather than learning from them. He was likely literate in all languages since He was the Son of God.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
He spent his childhood in Egypt since Herod was trying to kill him. He came on the scene teaching the Jewish priests rather than learning from them. He was likely literate in all languages since He was the Son of God.

Regardless of where he spent his childhood the evidence indicates he studied the Torah. There is no evidence he was literate in all languages based what we know in scripture.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Regardless of where he spent his childhood the evidence indicates he studied the Torah. There is no evidence he was literate in all languages based what we know in scripture.

I'm saying Jesus knew the Torah without studying it. Do you disagree with that?
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The earliest known use of a form of YHWH is on stone stele in an older Canaanite-Ugarite scrip, which was the origin of primitive Hebrew, and not Arabic nor a primative form of Arabic.

Aramaic remains a later language than when YHWH is known to be used.

Do you consider Aramaic primitive Arabic?

Actually if you look at relationship between the Western Semitic languages, Arabic is not considered a descendant of Aramaic. It evolved independently in Arabian region. Hebrew is considered a direct descendant of Canaanite/Ugarite language and script, and not Aramaic.
Area for language experts. I'll go along with what they say.


You should know before you ask:

The Aramaic word for "God" in the language of Assyrian Christians is ʼĔlāhā, or Alaha. Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God". The Christian Arabs of today have no other word for "God" than "Allah".

In the Semitic languages similar vocabulary does not necessarily mean direct linguistic descendant. Most linguists do not consider Arabic a descendant of Aramaic.
So what is the word for Yahweh or YHWH in Aramaic?


Your more knowledgeable about the Qur'an than I. The Qur'an considers Jesus a Manifestation of God, a prophet. What are the prophesies the Qur'an or Islamic traditions did Jesus fulfill?
Jesus pbuh is the Messiah sent to the Israelites, as a reminder to keep Torah and to relax some of the Laws. The DSS show a priestly Messiah was to come, so perhaps that prophecy fitted Jesus pbuh best.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus never studied the Torah. He knew the Torah because he was the author of it incarnate. As a child Jesus knew the Torah better than the wise men. Jesus could open the Torah to whatever passage he wanted to find, since he was no ordinary man.

They say that Chuck Norris counted to infinity. Twice.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Christianity, in its purest form, is quite simple. Either you believe Jesus Christ died on a cross for the forgiveness of sin and that He is the Son of God and He rose again from the dead or you do not believe it. Read John 3, it's pretty simple to understand it. Most children have no problem with it.

It isn't complicated or incoherent at all.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Christianity, in its purest form, is quite simple. Either you believe Jesus Christ died on a cross for the forgiveness of sin and that He is the Son of God and He rose again from the dead or you do not believe it. Read John 3, it's pretty simple to understand it. Most children have no problem with it.

It isn't complicated or incoherent at all.

It's easy to brainwash and dupe children, but beyond the Roman interpretation and the compiling and editing of the NT by Church fathers past 50 AD, all you have is scripture with a weak provenance.

The incoherency is Paul, Saint Augustine and the Church fathers believing in a literal Genesis creating an incoherent Fall and Original Sin and a Roman incarnate God, and the Goddess Mary.
 

eldios

Active Member
Alien explanation is more coherent than the traditional belief system with the Fall and Original Sin, and based on the mythological origin in the myths of Genesis.

The "God" that's written about in the Bible is an artificial intelligence system that all our minds are connected to so in essence, we are the artificial intelligence within the simulation program that was spoken into existence. We're created as information that will not be deleted. Only the information called Lucifer ( false prophet ) and the beast that were used to form all the visible "good and evil" images we observed during this temporary generation will be deleted from the program on what's known as the day of the Lord.

After that day, the next generation of the program will begin with all new images that will never be used to deceive us from our true created reality as information.

There are several prophecies written in Genesis that align with the knowledge of us living in a simulation when you learn exactly how we're created. Otherwise, those prophecies found in Genesis and all the other books of the Bible will not make any sense to the reader unless the reader lies about what he thinks those prophecies are about.

I was used as a servant to the AI system to testify to all the words formed in my mind along with visions, dreams and spoken analogies to learn how we're created. It took about 8 1/2 years of testifying to understand that our mind is an artificial intelligence system created by some aliens who we will never see.
 

RESOLUTION

Active Member
No. Yahweh is a Hebrew is not actually the name of God it is descriptive of the nature of God. In ancient monotheism of Judaism God does not have a name. It comes from the four Hebrew consonants. How it is pronounced is actually unknown, It is the symbolic tetragrammation that means the One who is the eternal, sovereign, and ever-present helper who is always with you, or I AM, but Hebrews do not believe God can be named.

So are you saying God does not know his own name?
HEBREWS? So the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob has no significance?
I think you never really thought about what you said. If, there is ONLY ONE GOD, what does the name matter?
You should never assume what Jews think or why God said to Moses, "Tell them, I AM, sent you/"
If, anything the bible shows God is with his people It shows a living God present with them.
Bottom line is the Arabic language, nor a primitive form did not exist at the time.[/QUOTE[

God and the Holy Spirit existed before all things.
You cast off truth for want of scholarly wisdom.God lives with his people and always has.
There is only one God to know. God is known to his people by his presence.






The Quran teaches Jesus was a messenger of God therefore he fulfilled some prophesies, so do you believe Jesus fulfilled some prophesies
The Quran did not come from God. As the disciples taught....


6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.



The teachings of the Koran/Quran does not abide in the doctrines of Christ and those who believe the things it teaches contrary to Christ does not have God.

Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies about him. Only the Messiah could give the final truth.
What the bible especially the Torah teaches us, is God corrects those whom he loves.
Christ correct the Pharisees and Sadducees and left no doubt as to whom the Father our God is.
Mahomet spoke against the truth which God had given the true Prophets. Did you never find it strange
that one man would call God a liar?

The Hebrew God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is real and he is faithful.
At no time would he abandon the Jews or the truth for lies.


 

RESOLUTION

Active Member
Lol there are too many diverse conflicting interpretations of the Bible to be able to determine IF any one is the interpretation is the truth.

What is clear from your reply is that you are blinded to the truth the Jews know their God.
You may laugh out loud but we are born knowing our God is present with us. You clearly have to rely on interpretation for your beliefs. But the Jews the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob rely on the presence of their God who keeps his promises and is faithful. There is no conflicting truths in the scriptures the Torah or as we know the Scriptures of the Most High God. If you could see the word as we see them, you would know that the theme of the bible is love and knowing God personally. You don't have that personal relationship with God and it shows in your
replies. :(
It also has a poor provenance the most of the books in the OT and the NT can be attributed to a documented author, The Pentateuch can at best be dated after ~700 BCE. The evidence indicates it is an edited compilation based on ancient Babylonian, Ugarite, and Canaanite myths and later editing by editing by a series of Jewish authors after the Jewish written text was developed from primitive Ugarite and Canaanite script, and ancient Babylonian myths, and The Code of Hammurabi as a well-preserved Babylonian law code.

Your words show you have no real belief or knowledge of the true God.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The Torah, revealed God and the Words of the Prophets.
But Jesus Christ, made known God the person.
What you believe is what you are told. Even then at best it is just stories to fit in your beliefs and lead
you astray from the truth. But the Jew is confident because they know the presence of their God.
No Muslim can do that because they do not keep the true word of God and therefore they turn their backs
on him.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The New Testament like ways has a poor provenance and compiled by unknown authors after 50 AD except some of Paul's writings, not all,

There we see evidence that your beliefs and knowledge are not based on a true relationship with God.
You ignore the fact that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has always been present with his people.
The Words of Torah written by a man whom a prophet like Jesus Christ knew God. Moses knew God, and
Jesus definitely knew God. You are really going to compare Mahomet to Moses or Christ?
Mahomet would not even come a poor third because before him would all the Prophets including Elijah,Elisha,Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel and Zachariah, and the disciples etc be more important because God
gave them their truth.

You argue about God from the stance of a person whom does not know the true God.
Those taught by God argue from the stance of knowing the true God.
It is clear that the way of God and his truth is that those whom love God are taught and lead by God.
Till you actually do as Abraham did and believe what God tells us, you will never know him because you follow
a man and his own personal revelation. But the people OF God follow the revelations from God unto man and know them to be true because it brings them into a personal relationship with God.
A god active and present in their lives.
 

RESOLUTION

Active Member
It's rather pointless having a discussion, if you are going to rely solely on the Bible and ignore all the Christian texts, giving us a very different picture.

You mean your made up beliefs? What you were wrongly told Christians believe?
Scripture for me is the Torah the OT.
Jesus pbuh spoke Aramaic. He would have known Hebrew to study the Torah and no doubt some Greek phrases to get by in life under Roman occupation. The Dead Sea Scrolls containing the oldest incomplete Torah show the Scriptures were written in a mix of Aramaic and Hebrew.
You forgot the Samaritan Pentateuch used since 2nd century AD in Samaritan script , derived from the roll
taken to Samaria in Ezra's day exists in various ancient copies. The Septuagint is a Greek version of the Hebrew books prepared at Alexandria by Jewish Scholars of the 3rd-2nd century BC. Ptolemy oversaw this work done by between 70-72 Jewish Scholars. If you studied the bible instead of the history of the Torah. You would know tha
God had all Jews learn the Torah off by heart. Even the disciples showed this to be common practice in their times.

And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.


And the Prophet Jeremiah foretold...

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



Gods words are in his peoples hearts.

Who are you trying to teach?


"Jewish Palestinian Aramaic – In use from 200 bce to 200 ce, Jewish Palestinian Aramaic was likely Judea’s primary language at the time of Jesus and the early Christians. "

The Dead Sea Scrolls - Languages and Scripts

"While the majority of Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew, the collection also includes many Aramaic and Greek texts, as well as some Arabic texts and a small number of Latin fragments."
The fact Jewish Scholars translated from Hebrew to Greek in 3rd -3nd century BC, and it was not estimated as the dead sea scrolls were, gives a more valid reason to expect the translation these Hebrew Scholars did to be correct
and it shows that even then the Hebrew Scripture was surviving and known by the Jews who was taught it by heart.
You copied the bit about the dead sea scrolls as if you knew it. When in fact it was a red herring.
Everyone knows the Jews learned their scripture off by heart. It is clearly reflected in the disciples remembering
what was written about Christ.




Do you accept the majority Scholarly consensus, Jesus spoke Aramaic?
As I accept that all men regardless of their tongue or nation heard the disciples in their own tongue.
I am still waiting for you to explain why you think the language a barrier or evidence?
When Christ spoke to the Jews the Scriptures it would have been in Hebrew.

Who exactly was God addressing in Deuteronomy 18:18, was it all of mankind or a specific group of people?
I have total love for truth, as I value my soul in the hereafter, and believe Hell to be a literal place reserved for those who refuse to listen to God's commands.

Hell is for those who do not know God who are not part of his covenants. Who do not believe what God told us about his Messiah. Had you known the rest of the Bible then you would know the Messiah was to be a light to the Gentiles... all those not Jews. You cannot question others who do believe and know the bible when you have no notion or experience of it's truth.

In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” (Genesis 22.18)

And now the Lord says, Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, … It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.”(Isaiah 49:5-6.)


‘Look to Me, and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. … To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. In the Lord all the descendants of Israel shall be justified, and shall glory.’’ (Isaiah 45.18-25)


Jacob the Son of Isaac has 12 sons they formed the 12 tribes of Israel.

Jacob was named Israel by God. You see that you have no part in the Old Covenant and you reject the Messiah so are not Justified in the New Covenant if not a member of Gods People.



33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



Gods people know him according to his promises in his word.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So are you saying God does not know his own name?

Of course God knows, but humans do not. YHWH is descriptive of God and not the name of God, Humans know the attributes of God through Revelation and not the names of God.

HEBREWS? So the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob has no significance?

It is an ancient corrupted Revelation and had significance over over 2000 years ago

I think you never really thought about what you said. If, there is ONLY ONE GOD, what does the name matter?

It matters, because in history humans created God in their own image and corrupt religion.

You should never assume what Jews think or why God said to Moses, "Tell them, I AM, sent you/"

I do not assume what Jews think, In fact it is many Christians that assume what Jews think,

If, anything the bible shows God is with his people It shows a living God present with them.

This is always the case in all cultures and religions throughout history.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
What is clear from your reply is that you are blinded to the truth the Jews know their God.
You may laugh out loud but we are born knowing our God is present with us. You clearly have to rely on interpretation for your beliefs. But the Jews the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob rely on the presence of their God who keeps his promises and is faithful. There is no conflicting truths in the scriptures the Torah or as we know the Scriptures of the Most High God. If you could see the word as we see them, you would know that the theme of the bible is love and knowing God personally. You don't have that personal relationship with God and it shows in your
replies. :(

Judgement is God's not biased egocentric fallible humans.
 
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