How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

Bahaullah had written that All religions of the world, except for a few, are from God:

"There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. .... All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose."

Abdulbaha farther elaborated the Words of Bahaullah in more details and had said:

"Blessed souls—whether Moses, Jesus, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius or Muḥammad—were the cause of the illumination of the world of humanity. How can we deny such irrefutable proof? How can we be blind to such light? How can we dispute the validity of Christ? This is injustice. This is a denial of reality. Man must be just. We must set aside bias and prejudice. We must abandon the imitations of ancestors and forefathers. We ourselves must investigate reality and be fair in judgment."

IT, this is all just regurgitation of the Baha'i party line, and we've heard it a lot. Do you even bother to read what I say, or are you content firing off random quotes from your prophet, and his son? Or perhaps you have something new to add to the argument?

Again ... (alas) You are welcome to your beliefs. It just so happens that I don't believe in them. Neither do most of the rest of the people on this planet. There is absolutely no proof besides Baha'u'llah said so. I'm sorry, but that's not proof to anyone but Baha'i's. Why can't you just call it your belief, rather than state it as a fact? I know that's a big step, but that's what most folks do, even some of your Baha'i' friends on this thread.

Your idea of investigation is logically and scientifically flawed. It goes so far as to read the words of one individiual who claimed he knew everything, and then believe him. That's not investigation at all.

in·ves·ti·gate
inˈvestəˌɡāt/
verb
verb: investigate; 3rd person present: investigates; past tense: investigated; past participle: investigated; gerund or present participle: investigating
carry out a systematic or formal inquiry to discover and examine the facts of (an incident, allegation, etc.) so as to establish the truth.
"police are investigating the alleged beating"
synonyms: inquire into, look into, go into, probe, explore, scrutinize, conduct an investigation into, make inquiries about; More
inspect, analyze, study, examine, consider, research;
informalcheck out, suss out, scope out, dig, get to the bottom of
"police are still investigating this apparent murder"

• carry out research or study into (a subject, typically one in a scientific or academic field) so as to discover facts or information.
  "future studies will investigate whether long-term use of the drugs could prevent cancer"
  synonyms: inquire into, look into, go into, probe, explore, scrutinize, conduct an investigation into, make inquiries about; More
  inspect, analyze, study, examine, consider, research;
  informalcheck out, suss out, scope out, dig, get to the bottom of
  "police are still investigating this apparent murder"
• make inquiries as to the character, activities, or background of (someone).
  "everyone with a possible interest in your brother's death must be thoroughly investigated"
  synonyms: inquire into, look into, go into, probe, explore, scrutinize, conduct an investigation into, make inquiries about; More

 

[CG Didymus]

i know nothing about greek pantheon , just the names from smite.. and i think its unfair that this thread didn't include them in great personalities. please give info on them. i would like to learn.

To add to your inquiry, I'd like Saint Frankenstein to comment on the Greek influence on modern society.

I've asked Baha'is about the religions of the great civilizations and empires that aren't included in the discussion in the so-called "progressive" revelation that Baha'is proclaim. China, Egypt, Persian, Greek and others had religions and had great civilizations, but they aren't mentioned by the Baha'is. So I question the Baha'i concept of progressive revelation.

The Baha'i say that part of the progression is that God's manifestation gave information to allow people to develop into the next level of civilization. But what about the Greek influence on modern civilizations? I wouldn't be surprised if they had a greater civilizing influence than any of the major 9 religions. But then what about their religion? What was the influence of the Greek's religion on shaping their culture and society?

 

[CG Didymus]

It does not, it follows up on the comment of Authorized Baha'i web sites, to which that site is not.

Regards Tony

Actually, it would be interesting to see what the anti-religion and alternative religious progression looks like. 'Cause definitely the main, dominant forms of most major religions have had their problems and have created a lot of problems.

 

[CG Didymus]

In India, when you hire a driver, they are trained to call you 'Sir'. It was unnerving at first, and I tried to convince him to call me by first name, but he never did. I didn't get used to it. It reeks of class to me.

Yes, class divisions. I've seen it even in the Baha'i Faith. They use the term "Learned" a lot. They kind of emphasize calling someone "Doctor"... so they'd say, "DR. so and so is speaking tonight." So it's a hard thing for even them to break away from... and to treat all as truly equals.

Oh, and even some Christians preachers like to refer to Luke from the gospel of Luke as "Dr. Luke", because the NT says he was a physician... as if he went to Harvard Medical School or something? But what was medicine like 2000 years ago? But they use it to try and give Luke some intellectual credibility.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't think in terms of religious law, like that. Hinduism doesn't really have any hard and fast laws like that any more. Some old brutal ones have long been discarded by 99.9% of us. Civil law does what it has to do to protect the rest of us from repeat performances. Because of karma, what happens to an individual soul takes care of itself.

Why is there civil law and religious law? If religious law came from God would that be better than man-made laws? But it isn't. Imposing and enforcing religious laws has always been a problem. Like we were talking about the gay issue a few pages back. It is forbidden by Baha'i religious law. How they gonna enforce that? If they burn the arsonist alive, what do they have in store for gays?

 

[Vinayaka]

Why is there civil law and religious law? If religious law came from God would that be better than man-made laws? But it isn't. Imposing and enforcing religious laws has always been a problem. Like we were talking about the gay issue a few pages back. It is forbidden by Baha'i religious law. How they gonna enforce that? If they burn the arsonist alive, what do they have in store for gays?

I have no idea. Civil law seems fine to me. A group of people of all faiths get together, drop faith pretty much from the group, and then have discussions that come up with laws that seem fair to all people. That system seems incredibly fair. The archaic faiths seem to have to keep their mean spirited stuff alive. Seems positively illogical, and often inhumane, even brutal.

 

[CG Didymus]

So God is a messenger from Himself. That seems contradictory, lol. I can hear it now at the king's door ... "Your Honour, I have a message for you."
"Who is it from?"
"It is from me."

An article from Huff Post:

"...according to Islamic principles and Prophet Muhammad, Lord Krishna was a true Prophet of God.

The obvious question that emerges is that if the same God sent Lord Krishna and Prophet Muhammad, why do Islam and Hinduism have notable theological differences? Simply put, Islam only argues that the original core teachings of Hinduism and Islam are the same — the unity of God and the obligation to serve mankind. Furthermore, nothing in the Quran, Sunnah or Hadith declares that Lord Krishna was not a prophet. Thus, this short article offers nine points to consider — together — that Lord Krishna is a true prophet of God, a prophet whom Muslims also revere along with their fellow Hindu neighbors.

1. First, the Quran is the only ancient scripture that specifically mentions and praises other faiths. While the Quran mentions Jews and Christians specifically, in numerous places, likewise, it mentions Hindus in a group known as the Sabians. Sabians refer to non-Abrahamic traditions — Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Taoists, etc. Thus, recognition of Hinduism exists in the Quran.

2. Islam teaches six Articles of Faith. The Fourth Article of Faith is the belief in all of God’s prophets. This simple Article of Faith provides further credence to recognizing Lord Krishna as a prophet sent to the Indian subcontinent.

3. The Quran is clear that God’s Divine guidance is not exclusive to any one people. Rather the Quran says that God sent “messengers to every people“ (10:48) and “We raised among every people a messenger“ (16:37). Prophet Muhammad further declared that God has sent no less than 124,000 prophets to mankind throughout history..."

If I didn't know better, I would have sworn that Islam had stolen this from the Baha'i Faith. But, since Islam predates the Baha'is, then is this another thing that makes the Baha'is look more and more like a liberalized and modernized form of Islam?

 

[CG Didymus]

It was not part of previous Revelations Mission, such as Christianity to talk about every other Manifestations who had come before Jesus, such as Krishna. In old times, the world was not as connected as our Age. I would think that majority of People who lived 350 years, or 2000 years ago in Israel were not aware in Religions of other countries, such as India. Thus, it did not make sense if Jesus had spoke to them about Krishna.
The Mission of Jesus was to bring new teachings, rather than talking about every previous Manifestation. However, people in that region, were familiar with Abraham or Noah. Thus mention of Them has been made in Bible.
All these Religions had promised of a Resurrection Day of All mankind, when the time for uniting mankind comes; the time for establishing God's kingdom on earth. That is the Day to bring All mankind together. Now, that is why we see, in Bahai Scriptures, and Writings, Krishna or Buddha.

Do you know anything about early Persian religions that led into Zoroastrianism? Also, as I remember, the Jews were taken captive to Persian, and I thought it was King Cyrus that let them go back to Israel. Then, I've heard some say that the Magi coming from the East to honor the baby Jesus were possibly from Persian.

But now for the religions they for sure know about, like that of the Egyptians and Babylonians and later the Greeks and the Romans... I'm pretty sure the Jews and Christians treated them as false religions. Do you have anything on the ancient religions of those cultures from the Baha'i writings?

 

[Vinayaka]

An article from Huff Post:

"...according to Islamic principles and Prophet Muhammad, Lord Krishna was a true Prophet of God.

The obvious question that emerges is that if the same God sent Lord Krishna and Prophet Muhammad, why do Islam and Hinduism have notable theological differences? Simply put, Islam only argues that the original core teachings of Hinduism and Islam are the same — the unity of God and the obligation to serve mankind. Furthermore, nothing in the Quran, Sunnah or Hadith declares that Lord Krishna was not a prophet. Thus, this short article offers nine points to consider — together — that Lord Krishna is a true prophet of God, a prophet whom Muslims also revere along with their fellow Hindu neighbors.

1. First, the Quran is the only ancient scripture that specifically mentions and praises other faiths. While the Quran mentions Jews and Christians specifically, in numerous places, likewise, it mentions Hindus in a group known as the Sabians. Sabians refer to non-Abrahamic traditions — Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Taoists, etc. Thus, recognition of Hinduism exists in the Quran.

2. Islam teaches six Articles of Faith. The Fourth Article of Faith is the belief in all of God’s prophets. This simple Article of Faith provides further credence to recognizing Lord Krishna as a prophet sent to the Indian subcontinent.

3. The Quran is clear that God’s Divine guidance is not exclusive to any one people. Rather the Quran says that God sent “messengers to every people“ (10:48) and “We raised among every people a messenger“ (16:37). Prophet Muhammad further declared that God has sent no less than 124,000 prophets to mankind throughout history..."

If I didn't know better, I would have sworn that Islam had stolen this from the Baha'i Faith. But, since Islam predates the Baha'is, then is this another thing that makes the Baha'is look more and more like a liberalized and modernized form of Islam?

Thanks for the info. I was kind of surprised at all this, but then I'm no interfaith scholar. Seems to me that Islam and Hinduism are incredibly far apart theologically. Certainly in practice. Take idol worship, for starters. Then add the rules, justice, karma reincarnation , ahimsa, dualism versus monism, the idea of prophets, so much more.

Yes, I've always though of Baha'i' s as an offshoot of Islam, although they vehemently deny it. Time and place itself its a pretty good indicator.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have no idea whatsoever what that means. Are you saying that if you look into a mirror at the sun, it is the same as going blind from looking at the sun? Some of us on here are non-Baha'i' and not familiar with the common Baha'i' analogies, even when we hear them many times over.

But back to the topic. If the king wants to send a message to a neighbouring king, how could he go over there, and say, "I have a message from the king?" That just makes no sense.

Then again, perhaps you're forgetting that Krishna is God to Vaishnavites. Other sects of Hinduism and all other rational people view Krishna as that ... God to Vaishnavites. The only folks on the planet that think otherwise are the 5 million or so Baha'i'. The other 6 billion + people either think He's God, or God to certain other people. Thank you, but I think I'll go with the majority view. But you're free to go with the contradictory view.

I know exactly what he means. Let me explain in simple terms. He, the manifestation, is, essentially, God. But God is separate and unseeable, but we can see God in the perfectly polished mirror of the manifestation. So Krishna, could say he was God in one sense, but in another he was a messenger. So no, he's not God, just the reflection of God who nobody can see, see?

Let me put it even simpler. You got Moses, right. He is the mirror reflecting God. He, Moses, talks to God who's hiding in a burning bush so no one will see him. But Moses, who is still reflecting the God who he thinks he's talking to, is really talking to Baha'u'llah, who is reflecting God inside the burning bush. Then, Moses asks to see God, but God only shows him his back side. But obviously, that was probably Jesus, who was reflecting God, so as far as Moses knew, that was God. But we all know that was only the reflection of God, because we can't see God. Now that should clear it up for you.

 

[Vinayaka]

CG, Thank you so much.

Nothing like clarity to bring an end to questioning. No further questions, Sir.

(Sounds way too much like a former school adminstrater I knew trying to explain something to a student.)

 

[CG Didymus]

For Bahais, Hinduism is an old Religion and is not for this Age. We only recognize its divine origin. Also, we do not separate Abdulbaha, from revelation of Bahaullah. Abdulbaha was created by Bahaullah.

Baha'is say in the future we will be vegetarians. Hindus are already vegetarians. I don't the deeper things of Hinduism, but if we look at basic things like Hatha Yoga and the deep breathing things they do, and meditation techniques, what other religion goes into any of that? All things that have become part of Western society. How about the chakras? Does Baha'u'llah talk about them?

 

[CG Didymus]

im going now from this thread , ive said what i had to say , no need to hold back..ive lost all my peace of mind..in just one day..goodbye..

Thanks for your time here. Your input will be missed. See you in another thread or maybe... another life.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have no idea. Civil law seems fine to me. A group of people of all faiths get together, drop faith pretty much from the group, and then have discussions that come up with laws that seem fair to all people. That system seems incredibly fair. The archaic faiths seem to have to keep their mean spirited stuff alive. Seems positively illogical, and often inhumane, even brutal.

Yes, and with all the brutal punishments for crimes against "God's Law", still there's crime. Burning, stoning, banishing, shunning doesn't remove the problem.

 

[CG Didymus]

Thanks for the info. I was kind of surprised at all this, but then I'm no interfaith scholar. Seems to me that Islam and Hinduism are incredibly far apart theologically. Certainly in practice. Take idol worship, for starters. Then add the rules, justice, karma reincarnation , ahimsa, dualism versus monism, the idea of prophets, so much more.

Yes, I've always though of Baha'i' s as an offshoot of Islam, although they vehemently deny it. Time and place itself its a pretty good indicator.

I thought I knew a little about the different religions, but I never knew that the Quran had all this stuff in it. I thought all that kind of talk was new and from only the Baha'is.

 

[CG Didymus]

CG, Thank you so much.

Nothing like clarity to bring an end to questioning. No further questions, Sir.

(Sounds way too much like a former school adminstrater I knew trying to explain something to a student.)

I'm so glad I could clear it up for you. Now, if I could only figure out what I said. My head is still spinning.

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm so glad I could clear it up for you. Now, if I could only figure out what I said. My head is still spinning.

Nothing a good stoning wouldn't cure.

 

[Magus]

Most plausible explanations, Gods where originally men, most likely Kings, died, mourned, deified and years later are seen as Legends .

A Roman example is Julius Caesar, deified after his death as Divus Iulius, later morphed into Divus Invictus or Sol Invictus, the Sun God.

King Cyrus > The Jewish God ( most prominent one ) .

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I know exactly what he means. Let me explain in simple terms. He, the manifestation, is, essentially, God. But God is separate and unseeable, but we can see God in the perfectly polished mirror of the manifestation.

So Krishna, could say he was God in one sense, but in another he was a messenger. So no, he's not God, just the reflection of God who nobody can see, see?

Let me put it even simpler. You got Moses, right. He is the mirror reflecting God. He, Moses, talks to God who's hiding in a burning bush so no one will see him.

But Moses, who is still reflecting the God who he thinks he's talking to, is really talking to Baha'u'llah, who is reflecting God inside the burning bush.

Then, Moses asks to see God, but God only shows him his back side. But obviously, that was probably Jesus, who was reflecting God, so as far as Moses knew, that was God.

But we all know that was only the reflection of God, because we can't see God. Now that should clear it up for you.

That's confusing.

If I look in the mirror, I'm looking at a reflection of myself. If I were Krishna, Krishna would be looking at a reflection of himself. Since Krishna is god, I'd assume we cannot see him just as we cannot see the god of abraham.

So if krishna is a reflection of the god of abraham, what about Krishna makes him Krishna?​

If he is a reflection of the GOA, wouldn't it make more sense that there is only one person? The reflection is not another god. It's just a reflection.

Which is the correct god looking in the mirror? Krishna or the god of abraham?​

-

With Moses, Moses is a human being. He has flaws. He went up the mountain to talk to god. God gave a message to Moses. Moses is still human when he received the message. The message was inscribed on physical tablets to which Moses can hold. Since god was hidden and Moses was not, Moses cannot be god.

If Moses is a reflection of god, he would not need to go up the mountain. His brother was the one that talked with the pharaoh. If he were god's reflection, as people think christ is, he would not be afraid and let his brother speak for him. As a prophet he is also human.

Unless Moses is talking to himself through his own reflection, is god himself, how can Moses, a human being, be a reflection of a creator-spirit?​

-

Now Bahaullah, the human, has not been born yet. Each of us have a spirit. Unless Bahaullah is god/human, how is Moses talking to someone who has not yet been born?​

Kind of like John baptizing jesus before he was born because he thinks he is talking to him through Moses before jesus was born to tell him the laws from moses himself.

--
The Jews believe they talk to the creator not jesus. So, Moses would have known he was talking to the creator an not Bahaullah. According to scripture, because god's back was turned (or you cannot see a spirit), there is no way to know that the spirit is a human. By definition, once the spirit becomes a human Bauhaullah, Christ, or Moses, he is no longer god.

An incarnation maybe. Paganistic, really. But not god.

At least not by every other abrahamic god religion. I just wonder the history of Bahai to where the new faith takes much interest in some major religions that did no exist before Paganism and other religions that are less political than religions today.

 

[Magus]

I do theorise that Krishna could be the deification of King Cyrus , his empire did indeed stretched all the way to the north-western regions of India.

Also, the name Cyrus ( Κῦρος ) likely root word of Kyrios ( κύριος), meaning Lord, which is used to translate Yahweh in the Septuagint and New Testament. Cyrus appears in Greek mythology as Perseus, in the Old Testament as Moses, the New Testament as Jesus, It seems King Cyrus was the archetype for many Gods.