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The Divinity of Christ

trablano

Member
Wizanda, you seem to know a lot, can you tell me whether it is legit for a christian to also worship Odin and Zeus? I love Jesus very much but I am very drawn to other religions too. I even had an experience with Zeus once where he came into my room and gave me lot's of warmth and kindness. Other christians tell me it must have been a demon but I just can't imagine it. Did Yeshua know of other gods? Does he respect them too? I know that many pagans and heathen and atheistic people had their own experiences with their deities and philosophies and evangelical christianity just seems to put all of them away as if they hadn't happened, and only views biblical experiences as real. But it's painful for me to live in this reality. Please help.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Other verses like this is Matthew 25:31-46. Doing the will our Father in heaven means:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Not too much in there about being a follower of Christ let alone the right kind of Christian.

I have addressed this on another thread to you. In brief we have two responsibilities. One is to recognise the Messiah when He comes and the other is not to follow false teachers. It is not enough to follow an outdated religion, reject the promised Messiah and accuse Him of being a deceiver without investigating His claims.

So is Christianity too far gone?

People have gone too far, not the Church which Christ built.

Matthew 16:18 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

So I tell you, you are Peter. And I will build my church on this rock. The power of death will not be able to defeat my church.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 New King James Version (NKJV)

Truly, this only I have found:
That God made man upright,
But they have sought out many schemes.”

World_religions_pie_chart.png


On what is the will of the Father - it is not about being learned or being charitable - that is not it, entirely:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 New International Version (NIV)

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

It is about having love - not the love that people know but the love which is in the bible.

Ephesians 3:17-19 New International Version (NIV)

so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

What then is the love of Christ?

Ephesians 5:25New International Version (NIV)

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

Well, to find the love of Christ is to find the Church which Christ loved and gave himself for her. And you have to find it through 30,000-40,000 denominations of Christianity.

Matthew 7:7-8 New International Version (NIV)

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
People have gone too far, not the Church which Christ built.

Matthew 16:18 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

So I tell you, you are Peter. And I will build my church on this rock. The power of death will not be able to defeat my church.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 New King James Version (NKJV)

Truly, this only I have found:
That God made man upright,
But they have sought out many schemes.”

World_religions_pie_chart.png


On what is the will of the Father - it is not about being learned or being charitable - that is not it, entirely:

Isn't the division of the church into so many denominations a sign that not only people have gone too far, but the church has to?

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 New International Version (NIV)

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

It is about having love - not the love that people know but the love which is in the bible.

Ephesians 3:17-19 New International Version (NIV)

so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

What then is the love of Christ?

Maybe this Divine love is extended to all peoples and all faiths. Why just Christians. Doesn't God love all humanity?

Well, to find the love of Christ is to find the Church which Christ loved and gave himself for her. And you have to find it through 30,000-40,000 denominations of Christianity.

Therein lies the irony. Every Christian thinks their particular denomination is the best or true one. It is simply another sign of the times. The sun has been dimmed and stars fallen from heaven.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Isn't the division of the church into so many denominations a sign that not only people have gone too far, but the church has to?

Maybe this Divine love is extended to all peoples and all faiths. Why just Christians. Doesn't God love all humanity?

Therein lies the irony. Every Christian thinks their particular denomination is the best or true one. It is simply another sign of the times. The sun has been dimmed and stars fallen from heaven.

Was it predicted that the true church established by Christ would be apostatized?
Yes it was.

Who created the divisions which created many denominations? One lie breeds many lies, isn't it?

tumblr_nttin32.gif


THE PROCESS OF APOSTASY

How was the multitude of the disciples was apostatized? Apostle Peter explains this in II Peter 2:1-2:

“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.” (II Peter 2:1-2 NIV)

Apostle Peter said, “there will be FALSE TEACHERS AMONG YOU.” The false teachers will not rise from outside of the Church and will deceive many to get them to depart from the Church. The false teachers will rise IN THE MIDST of the disciples. How these false teachers will distort the doctrines of Christ and the apostles written in the Bible? Apostle Peter also said that, “They will secretly introduce destructive heresies.” Thus, apostasy will happen inside the Church.

The Church will remain, the organization will still be there, however, her doctrines did not remained “pure” as what the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles taught and as what are written in the Bible. False teachers will rise among them and will secretly introduce false doctrines. Remember what Apostle Paul said in I Timothy 4:1:

"Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.” (New Living Translation)

Who are these false teachers that will secretly introduce to the Church “destructive heresies” or false doctrines? Apostle Paul answered this in Acts 20:30:

“Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.” (Acts 20:30 NIV)

Apostle Paul said, “from your own number men will rise and distort the truth.” Who were Apostle Paul talking to when he said “from your own number men will rise and distort the truth”? In Acts 20:28:

“Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.” (Acts 20:28 ASV)

Thus, among the bishops will rise men that will distort the truth. This is how many were led astray. False teachers will rise among the bishops and will distort the truth. When will this happen? This is Apostle’ Paul's statement in Acts 20:29-30:

“I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.” (Acts 20:29-30 NIV)

Apostle Paul said, “afer I leave...” He is referring to his death (cf. Acts 20:29-30, 24-25 and 37-38; I Tim. 4:6-8). The process of apostasy or the turning away from the teachings of God as written in the Bible, was already at work even during the times of the apostles (cf. II Thess. 2:7). Apostle Paul warned the Christians in Galatia that those who teach doctrines different from what the Apostles already taught be accursed (cf. Gal. 1:6-9). But for as long as the Apostles were still alive and in control of Church administration, such forces of iniquity did not succeed in enticing the entire living members of the Church away from what the Apostles taught them (cf. II Thess. 2:7).

Thus, the apostasy will take place after the death of the apostles or after the apostolic period. After the death of the apostles (John, the last of the apostles, died in c. 90-100 AD), among the bishops (those who succeeded the apostles) will rise false teachers that will distort the truth.


THE FULFILLMENT OF THE PROPHECY

Christ said that “you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.” Indeed, the first century Christians were persecuted and put to death. There’s the Jewish persecution where Stephen was one of the Christians who were put to death. Then came the imperial persecution of the Church started by Roman Emperor Nero in 64 AD:

“Tacitus recorded the rumor that Nero had ordered the fire that destroyed part of the city of Rome. This rumor was so widely accepted by the people that Nero had to find a scapegoat. He diverted feeling against himself to the Christians by accusing them of arson and by engaging in a saturnalia of destruction of the Christians.” (Christianity Through the Centuries, p. 91)

Then, another imperial persecution broke out still in the first century AD, this time by Emperor Domitian:

“Persecution broke out again in 95 during the reign of the despotic Domitian. The Jews had refused to pay a poll tax that had been levied for the support of Capitolinus Jupiter. Because the Christians continued to be associated with the Jews, they also suffered the effects of the emperor’s wrath. It was during this persecution that the apostle John was exiled to the Isle of Patmos, where he wrote the Book of Revelation.” (Christianity Through the Centuries, p. 91)

Thus, what the Lord Jesus Christ prophesied in Matthew 24:9 was fulfilled. The faithful, including the apostles, were put to death during the imperial persecution. Indeed, many Christians were put to death during these two imperial persecutions of the Church in the first century. Apostle John was exiled in an island called Patmos. He died in c. 90-100 AD. With the death of the apostles, however, something happened to the Church:

“For the years after the record in Acts ends, evidence for the history of the Christian Church becomes more scanty. There began to be passing references to it in pagan writers. These writers make it seem likely that the Roman Emperor Nero blamed the Christians for the burning of the city of Rome in A.D. 64. It is also very likely that Saint Peter and Saint Paul were put to death at Rome about this time… .
“When the original Apostles died, the leadership of the Church was taken over by local pastors known as bishops. Under them were ministers of lower rank, known as presbyters and deacons. The Church organized the area of the Roman Empire into provinces. The bishops at the head of the Christian communities in the large cities such as Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, and Carthage ranked highest.” (The New Book of Knowledge, vol. 3, pp. 280-281)

Thus, when the Apostles died, not much was recorded on what went on in the Church of Christ but during this period of silence the administration of the Church fell into the hands of the bishops. Apostle Paul describes the bishop as he was in the first century Church of Christ. His qualities are detailed in I Timothy 3:2-7 as:

“…blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?). Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.” (King James Version)

Apostle Paul further says that a bishop should be “holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers” (cf. Titus 1:9). Thus, among other things, a bishop in the first century Church of Christ is a husband of one wife and a teacher of things taught by the Apostles and Christ, things that are written in the Bible.

The bishops that took control of the Church administration in the second century were of a different breed. They were priests who were not allowed to marry and taught things not coming from the Bible. Moreover, the bishops of the first century Church were not monarchical:

“In Acts 20:28, …the fact that there were several bishops in one community excludes the monarchical concept of the term…” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. 2, p. 585)

In spite of this clear evidence from the Bible that the original bishop in the Church of Christ was not monarchical, Catholic Church authorities inject the idea that the monarchical episcopate which prevailed in the second century must have come from oral tradition:

“Therefore, since there is no clear evidence in NT for a monarchical episcopate, this office, which was firmly established by the early decades of the 2d century must have been based on oral apostolic tradition going back ultimately to Christ.” (Ibid.)

A monarchical episcopate is defined as “one single bishop assisted by priests and deacons” (Ibid. p. 589), a thing that did not prevail during the time of the Apostles. In spite of this difference in administration between the first century Church of Christ and that of the second, Catholic authorities reject the first and accept the second:

“The testimony of Ignatius from the first decade of the 2d century, along with the evidence of the writers from the second half of that century and the earliest catalogs of bishops in the principal Churches – all of which trace a line of succession of individual bishops back to the apostolic age – satisfies most Catholic theologians that this form of Church government was the only one ever recognized as normal and regular.” (Ibid.)

Soon after the bishops took over the administration of the Church in the second century, the doctrines of this Church began to be infected with poison:

“At first the history of the Roman Church is identical with the history of the Christian truth. But unhappily there came a time when streams of poison began to flow from the once pure fountain.” (The World’s Great Events, vol. 2, pp 163-164)

This control of the Church administration by the bishops who began to teach different doctrines was the fulfillment of what Apostle Paul prophesied concerning the overseers (bishop):

“Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.” (Acts 20:30, KJV)
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Was it predicted that the true church established by Christ would be apostatized?
Yes it was.

Who created the divisions which created many denominations? One lie breeds many lies, isn't it?

View attachment 18078

THE PROCESS OF APOSTASY

How was the multitude of the disciples was apostatized? Apostle Peter explains this in II Peter 2:1-2:

“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.” (II Peter 2:1-2 NIV)

Apostle Peter said, “there will be FALSE TEACHERS AMONG YOU.” The false teachers will not rise from outside of the Church and will deceive many to get them to depart from the Church. The false teachers will rise IN THE MIDST of the disciples. How these false teachers will distort the doctrines of Christ and the apostles written in the Bible? Apostle Peter also said that, “They will secretly introduce destructive heresies.” Thus, apostasy will happen inside the Church.

The Church will remain, the organization will still be there, however, her doctrines did not remained “pure” as what the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles taught and as what are written in the Bible. False teachers will rise among them and will secretly introduce false doctrines. Remember what Apostle Paul said in I Timothy 4:1:

"Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.” (New Living Translation)

Who are these false teachers that will secretly introduce to the Church “destructive heresies” or false doctrines? Apostle Paul answered this in Acts 20:30:

“Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.” (Acts 20:30 NIV)

Apostle Paul said, “from your own number men will rise and distort the truth.” Who were Apostle Paul talking to when he said “from your own number men will rise and distort the truth”? In Acts 20:28:

“Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.” (Acts 20:28 ASV)

Thus, among the bishops will rise men that will distort the truth. This is how many were led astray. False teachers will rise among the bishops and will distort the truth. When will this happen? This is Apostle’ Paul's statement in Acts 20:29-30:

“I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.” (Acts 20:29-30 NIV)

Apostle Paul said, “afer I leave...” He is referring to his death (cf. Acts 20:29-30, 24-25 and 37-38; I Tim. 4:6-8). The process of apostasy or the turning away from the teachings of God as written in the Bible, was already at work even during the times of the apostles (cf. II Thess. 2:7). Apostle Paul warned the Christians in Galatia that those who teach doctrines different from what the Apostles already taught be accursed (cf. Gal. 1:6-9). But for as long as the Apostles were still alive and in control of Church administration, such forces of iniquity did not succeed in enticing the entire living members of the Church away from what the Apostles taught them (cf. II Thess. 2:7).

Thus, the apostasy will take place after the death of the apostles or after the apostolic period. After the death of the apostles (John, the last of the apostles, died in c. 90-100 AD), among the bishops (those who succeeded the apostles) will rise false teachers that will distort the truth.


THE FULFILLMENT OF THE PROPHECY

Christ said that “you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.” Indeed, the first century Christians were persecuted and put to death. There’s the Jewish persecution where Stephen was one of the Christians who were put to death. Then came the imperial persecution of the Church started by Roman Emperor Nero in 64 AD:

“Tacitus recorded the rumor that Nero had ordered the fire that destroyed part of the city of Rome. This rumor was so widely accepted by the people that Nero had to find a scapegoat. He diverted feeling against himself to the Christians by accusing them of arson and by engaging in a saturnalia of destruction of the Christians.” (Christianity Through the Centuries, p. 91)

Then, another imperial persecution broke out still in the first century AD, this time by Emperor Domitian:

“Persecution broke out again in 95 during the reign of the despotic Domitian. The Jews had refused to pay a poll tax that had been levied for the support of Capitolinus Jupiter. Because the Christians continued to be associated with the Jews, they also suffered the effects of the emperor’s wrath. It was during this persecution that the apostle John was exiled to the Isle of Patmos, where he wrote the Book of Revelation.” (Christianity Through the Centuries, p. 91)

Thus, what the Lord Jesus Christ prophesied in Matthew 24:9 was fulfilled. The faithful, including the apostles, were put to death during the imperial persecution. Indeed, many Christians were put to death during these two imperial persecutions of the Church in the first century. Apostle John was exiled in an island called Patmos. He died in c. 90-100 AD. With the death of the apostles, however, something happened to the Church:

“For the years after the record in Acts ends, evidence for the history of the Christian Church becomes more scanty. There began to be passing references to it in pagan writers. These writers make it seem likely that the Roman Emperor Nero blamed the Christians for the burning of the city of Rome in A.D. 64. It is also very likely that Saint Peter and Saint Paul were put to death at Rome about this time… .
“When the original Apostles died, the leadership of the Church was taken over by local pastors known as bishops. Under them were ministers of lower rank, known as presbyters and deacons. The Church organized the area of the Roman Empire into provinces. The bishops at the head of the Christian communities in the large cities such as Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, and Carthage ranked highest.” (The New Book of Knowledge, vol. 3, pp. 280-281)

Thus, when the Apostles died, not much was recorded on what went on in the Church of Christ but during this period of silence the administration of the Church fell into the hands of the bishops. Apostle Paul describes the bishop as he was in the first century Church of Christ. His qualities are detailed in I Timothy 3:2-7 as:

“…blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?). Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.” (King James Version)

Apostle Paul further says that a bishop should be “holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers” (cf. Titus 1:9). Thus, among other things, a bishop in the first century Church of Christ is a husband of one wife and a teacher of things taught by the Apostles and Christ, things that are written in the Bible.

The bishops that took control of the Church administration in the second century were of a different breed. They were priests who were not allowed to marry and taught things not coming from the Bible. Moreover, the bishops of the first century Church were not monarchical:

“In Acts 20:28, …the fact that there were several bishops in one community excludes the monarchical concept of the term…” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. 2, p. 585)

In spite of this clear evidence from the Bible that the original bishop in the Church of Christ was not monarchical, Catholic Church authorities inject the idea that the monarchical episcopate which prevailed in the second century must have come from oral tradition:

“Therefore, since there is no clear evidence in NT for a monarchical episcopate, this office, which was firmly established by the early decades of the 2d century must have been based on oral apostolic tradition going back ultimately to Christ.” (Ibid.)

A monarchical episcopate is defined as “one single bishop assisted by priests and deacons” (Ibid. p. 589), a thing that did not prevail during the time of the Apostles. In spite of this difference in administration between the first century Church of Christ and that of the second, Catholic authorities reject the first and accept the second:

“The testimony of Ignatius from the first decade of the 2d century, along with the evidence of the writers from the second half of that century and the earliest catalogs of bishops in the principal Churches – all of which trace a line of succession of individual bishops back to the apostolic age – satisfies most Catholic theologians that this form of Church government was the only one ever recognized as normal and regular.” (Ibid.)

Soon after the bishops took over the administration of the Church in the second century, the doctrines of this Church began to be infected with poison:

“At first the history of the Roman Church is identical with the history of the Christian truth. But unhappily there came a time when streams of poison began to flow from the once pure fountain.” (The World’s Great Events, vol. 2, pp 163-164)

This control of the Church administration by the bishops who began to teach different doctrines was the fulfillment of what Apostle Paul prophesied concerning the overseers (bishop):

“Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.” (Acts 20:30, KJV)

Despite our theological differences and the small matter that we are followers of entirely different religions, I agree that the church became corrupted during this period of time when the church leaders went from being spiritual leaders to worldly letters and started introducing their own ideas which corrupted the original teachings.

We have had a few exchanges on RF now. Of the thousands of different denominations of Christianity, which one is the least corrupted and why?
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Despite our theological differences and the small matter that we are followers of entirely different religions, I agree that the church became corrupted during this period of time when the church leaders went from being spiritual leaders to worldly letters and started introducing their own ideas which corrupted the original teachings.

We have had a few exchanges on RF now. Of the thousands of different denominations of Christianity, which one is the least corrupted and why?

A religion is either from God or not - that is my point of view. It cannot be partially from God and partially from the devil, as the bible points this out:

2 Corinthians 6:14-18

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”
Therefore,

“Come out from them
and be separate,

says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”
And,

“I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty.”

A religion, like water is therefore is either pure or impure - there is no such thing as 51% pure and 49% impure - still that is dirty and will make one real sick.

upload_2017-6-18_20-27-48.jpeg


If we are discerning on what we eat, should we be discerning likewise of what we believe - if it is the truth or rubbish?

waiter02.png


And who is the one responsible of all of these different religions and denominations?

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

images


Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Now back to your question: Of the thousands of different denominations of Christianity, which one is the least corrupted and why?

That question is difficult to answer [but I could] without breaking Rule 8 of RF house rules but based on my foregoing statements, though indirectly, that would suffice
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
He accurately stated that He is 'the beginning of the creation by God'. So when we know who Jesus is, we cannot see Him as being anything other than God's firstborn Son,

How could Jesus claim that, when He didn't exist before He was born to Mary? Witnesses claim that Jesus was Michael before He came to earth to be born of a virgin. So it would have to be Michael that was God's first born son, and the beginning of creation, not Jesus. So Jesus could not claim that for Himself because Jesus only existed for 33 years, and no longer exists.

*** rs p. 218 par. 3 Jesus Christ ***
So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.

I'm sure you being a witness, I don't have to tell you which book that came from, do I?
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
If you would, please show chapter and verse where "trinity" can be found in the Bible. I think that probably you have the Athenasian Creed, which did not originate from the Scriptures, but is written by uninspired men.

You mean like EVERY SINGLE ONE of your orgs publications?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
MJ Flores said "I believe you don't have a single bible verses to support your beliefs."

I believe that is the null hypothesis. The fact that I have not given many does not mean that I don't have them.

I beieve at least my Bible verses support my beliefs.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Here are some OT messianic prophecies referring to the King David.

And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

Ezekiel 34:23-24

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jeremiah 23:5

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Ezekiel 37:24-25

For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Jeremiah 30:8-9

Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.
Hosea 3:5

Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
Isaiah 55:3

And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Isaiah 22:22

Some NT verses refer Jesus as being the son of David:

Jesus was addressed as 'Lord, thou son of David' several times. The woman whose daughter was being tormented by a demon:
And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Matthew 15:22

The two blind men by the wayside cried out to the Son of David for help:
And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.
Matthew 20:30

The Pharisees hated Jesus because He wouldn’t give them the honour they thought they deserved, so when they heard the people hailing Jesus as the Saviour, they became displeased:
And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased
Matthew 21:15

Jesus asked the Pharisees about the title:
And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

Mark 12:35, Psalms 110:1

There is no physical throne (unless you can demonstrate one) so it must figurative. If you have another explanation I'm happy to hear it.



One definition of a figure of speech is: a word or phrase used in a non-literal sense for rhetorical or vivid effect. The point I've been making in regards to the Divinity of Christ is that the phrases son of man, Son of God, son of David all are figures of speech. Another example is being born again. We are not literally born again in emerge from our mother's womb but born of the spirit of Christ.



If it is God's kingdom on earth, that is true. If it in the kingdom of heaven it doesn't make sense.



Please define what you mean by greatness.


Can you justify it using reason and scripture?


I appreciate that is your belief.


So why do think a man Jesus can be not only as great as God, but greater?



The parable of the tares and the wheat was figurative. It is not that tares will be literally gathered up and burnt.





That is for God alone to judge. I am sincere in my believe as you are in yours. I'm comfortable enough in what I believe to openly explore scripture and consider the truth.

I believe this is a physical throne in the New Jerusalem since that is where Jesus and the apostles will be.
Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I believe these terms are literal. Jesus is the son of man because he had a human mother. I believe He is the Son of God because He is a son and is God. Granted Jesus is not the result of God coupling with Mary which is the usual way to view the term but that does not mean the term is any less literal. Granted son of David has a different meaning from proceeding from David's conceiving with his wives but it is still a literal meaning of descendant of David.

I believe the Kingdom of Heaven exists in fleshly bodies so it does make sense. It simply is not limited to bodies.


I believe I just told you why. I am still the same person as when I was young but now I have a greater understanding. It is the same with God in that living as a man and suffering on the cross has made Him greater than He was before.

I believe that is true real tares would be burned and the real things that the tares represent would be burned.

I believe I am the voice of God but I have judged your heart and found it faithful. You just need to come to a better understanding of things. You do wish to please me don't you.

I believe Linus was sincere in waiting for the great pumpkin but that didn't mean he was right.

I believe you need to ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior so that searching the scripture will provide valid results for you. Other wise yo will be like those who Paul said are ever learning but never coming to the truth.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Who dares accuse us whom the Trinity has chosen for (his???) own? No one—for the Trinity (himself???) has given us right standing with (himself???).

View attachment 17674
See how funny the Trinity is?
It doesn't make sense.
Grammatically and biblically.
Application of the pronouns "his and himself" are out of place in the Trinity.

Romans 8:33-37 would apply to those who know God - whom God has chosen for his own. And not everyone is chosen. I could say those who do not believe God, those who have a false idea of God and those who are confused about God are not chosen for his own.

But the thing is you know the Trinity, not God. The world knows the Trinity, not God. The doctrine of the Trinity no matter how incomprehensible, it is just fanatically accepted even if the word isn't in the Bible and unscriptural.

images

Michael Servetus - Wikipedia

1 John 3:1
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

I believe I can laugh at how far out of context you can take things.
 

Daisies4me

Active Member
You mean like EVERY SINGLE ONE of your orgs publications?

(quote)
none of the publications have ever claimed to be 'inspired of God', but then surely you know that. ----as the Bible is.
No one in Jehovah's worldwide organization has ever claimed to be infallable. Neither did the imperfect sinful Apostles of Christ. And yet, God used them under direction of His holy spirit, to write down what He wanted mankind to know, did He not?
Likewise he uses sinful humans today to carry the message to the ends of the earth to the best of their imperfect ability. Never claiming to be infallible, as there are no perfect humans alive on earth today. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Does that stop them from doing their best in obeying Bible commands? Matthew 24:12-14.
If God didn't use imperfect humans, then HE would not have any humans at all to use in His service, would He? Praying to God and asking for His Spirit to guide our steps, and then doing our best to be obedient to what is stated in the Holy Writings from God is often times blessed by God in our service to our fellow humanbeings as per Bible instruction. None of us are anything more than lowly workers in the harvest of the Master.
But that still doesn't change the fact that the word 'trinity' is not found in the Inspired Writings, the Bible, does it? :)
may you have peace
 

Daisies4me

Active Member
How could Jesus claim that, when He didn't exist before He was born to Mary? Witnesses claim that Jesus was Michael before He came to earth to be born of a virgin. So it would have to be Michael that was God's first born son, and the beginning of creation, not Jesus. So Jesus could not claim that for Himself because Jesus only existed for 33 years, and no longer exists.

*** rs p. 218 par. 3 Jesus Christ ***
So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.

I'm sure you being a witness, I don't have to tell you which book that came from, do I?

(quote)

The Bible tells us that Jesus was 'the firstborn of all creation by God'. That being before the earth was created, and before mankind was created.
It was to Jesus whom Jehovah spoke when He said "let us make man".
Proverbs chapter 8 : 22-31 show Jesus' prehuman existence in the heavenly realm with God while the creation process was going on, with Jesus being God's 'Master Worker'.
Have you ever thought of it that way?
peace
 

Daisies4me

Active Member
How could Jesus claim that, when He didn't exist before He was born to Mary? Witnesses claim that Jesus was Michael before He came to earth to be born of a virgin. So it would have to be Michael that was God's first born son, and the beginning of creation, not Jesus. So Jesus could not claim that for Himself because Jesus only existed for 33 years, and no longer exists.

*** rs p. 218 par. 3 Jesus Christ ***
So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.

I'm sure you being a witness, I don't have to tell you which book that came from, do I?

(quote)

Was it not fairly common practice for God to change the names of persons that He dealth with in the Bible writings?
For example, Abraham was previously Abram. Jacob's name was changed by God to Israel. etc.
It was God's angel who spoke for God to Mary, and told her that the christ child would be named 'Jesus' in his earthly life as a son of Joseph and Mary. God has given many of his 'sons' more than one name. So it is not hard to understand that He is the one named his 'firstborn of all creation by God' Son, when born as a human, JESUS. Colossians 1: 13-15
He was identified in his prehuman existence and the mighty archangel Michael. Rev. 12:7-9

God sent his Firstborn Son to earth in human form to provide the Ransom sacrifice for the sin of mankind, the equivalent of the perfect human Adam, also the first human 'son of God'. no human born from Adam was without sin. So the "like for like" requirement under the Law of Moses meant that the one who could pay the ransom amount had to be the equal of the perfect human that Adam was when he wilfully chose to disobey God. Hence, God sent his perfect firstborn heavenly son, Jesus, in human form, to carry out the sacrifice, so that all mankind could have the option to escape the adamic sin of eternal death, by means of a resurrection, which is the 'way' Jesus provided for mankind to balance the divine scales of justice.
hope that helps
peace to you
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
(quote)

But that still doesn't change the fact that the word 'trinity' is not found in the Inspired Writings, the Bible, does it? :)
may you have peace
Actually, it does... the word is "Godhead" Col. 2:9 and found elsewhere (which translated into trinity -- a more modern word".

If you want to be technical... the word "apostasy" really isn't in the Bible either since the NT Bible was written in Greek but there is a modern English equivalency.
 

Daisies4me

Active Member
Actually, it does... the word is "Godhead" Col. 2:9 and found elsewhere (which translated into trinity -- a more modern word".

If you want to be technical... the word "apostasy" really isn't in the Bible either since the NT Bible was written in Greek but there is a modern English equivalency.

(quote)

Hi Ken

I find that not all Bible translations use the word 'godhead' . It is usually done by trinitarian translators, in order to promote a doctrine not taught in the Bible, imho, which still wouldn't translate into trinity, as 'godhead' appears to be singular, whereas trinity speaks to three. but that isn't the point I prefer to use.
The scripture at Colossians in context is speaking of Jesus being identified as the one (singular) that God designated to head up the Kingdom that Jesus taught his followers to pray for at Matthew 6:9-10. It is 'God's Kingdom', and God has Anointed and appointed Jesus to be the King over that earthly kingdom, which is a thread woven thru most of the chapters in the Book. There are also those who will rule with him, as associate kings, who are also spoken of in the scripture when taken in context.

"Look out that perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy of men, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ. Because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily. And so you are possessed of a fullness by means of him, who is the head of all government and authority. " ~~Colossians 2: 8-10 (the kingdom interlinear translation of the Greek Scriptures)

So what is 'the fullness of the divine quality' that Jesus possessed, and also those over whom he is the head of, are possessed of ?

"apostasy" is indeed found in several places in the Bible. Just one example is Acts 21:21.
translated from the Greek interlinear word for word translation into English, it reads

" they were taught by the echo down but about you that apostasy you are teaching from Moses the (ones) down the nations all Jews , saying not to be circumcising them the children not-but to the customs to be walking about."

as well as in other places in the Bible, the word apostasy is found. But we know what the actions were that clearly from apostates are clearly shown, and even today such ones are actively attempting to divert people away from Bible truths and after false doctrines.

peace to you
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
(quote)

Hi Ken

I find that not all Bible translations use the word 'godhead'
Hello Daisy

III John 2

The point about apostasy was simply the reality than new words appear that have never been used before... nothing more.

You are correct, words do change depending on the translation which creates another problem:

9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. NLT - This says that God was human too
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, NIV - This would also say that God was human too
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, NASB (which usually is touted as the best translation) also says that Jesus was God in human form...

So, in reality, no matter how you translate it, it is still the Godhead.

Godhead defined centuries ago was "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" which is why they use that word back then[/QUOTE]
 

Daisies4me

Active Member
Hello Daisy

III John 2

The point about apostasy was simply the reality than new words appear that have never been used before... nothing more.

You are correct, words do change depending on the translation which creates another problem:

9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. NLT - This says that God was human too
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, NIV - This would also say that God was human too
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, NASB (which usually is touted as the best translation) also says that Jesus was God in human form...

So, in reality, no matter how you translate it, it is still the Godhead.

Godhead defined centuries ago was "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" which is why they use that word back then
[/QUOTE]
----------
(quote)
Hi Ken
Many things were forced during the dark ages, but could not be forever held to, as people were willing to give their lives in the uncovering of Bible truths, as history shows.
upon the great apostasy that arose in full sway after the death of Christ and his apostles, the apostate 'church' set about ruling at the point of death to those who dared disagree. (quite "Christ like", wouldn't you say? -tongue in cheek, of course--)
Perhaps you have studied Michael Servetus-- ?? if not, good one to research, imho. there is an article that I would like to have your thoughts on after you have a chance to read it over, if you will. It is very revealing and informative.

www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20140601/reformation-truth-seekers/#?insight[search_id]=78ce816e-e968-4c08-8fb9-a9c55b0e3f13&insight[search_result_index]=3

take care

eta: 2 thessalonians 2:3 . According to Paul, the Apostasy was a sure thing.
 
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