How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

I think you might be overestimating the level of collaboration that is going on...like none.

It is remarkable how new Baha'is just keep popping up though and I must admit they have all been male.

It was humour for Didymus mostly. If another one does come, I hope he's more like you. You're the only one to be up front about your lack of knowledge about Hinduism.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah has said many Prophets have been sent by God, records do not remain of many. There is really only 9 World Religions still active today. Many traces of Older Faiths do remain. Abdul'baha has said;

"The proof of the validity of a Manifestation of God is the penetration and potency of His Word, the cultivation of heavenly attributes in the hearts and lives of His followers and the bestowal of divine education upon the world of humanity. This is absolute proof. The world is a school in which there must be Teachers of the Word of God. The evidence of the ability of these Teachers is efficient education of the graduating classes."

"...We see, therefore that the proofs applicable to one Prophet are equally applicable to another..." Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 402-411

List Of Messengers/Prophets - Prophets - Bahai9

Regards Tony

Yes, I found something to complain about. Bible prophets fill the pages, but where are Hindu sages?

Also, it says about Baha'u'llah: "...if He had believed that reincarnation was a fact, He, Himself, would have mentioned all of these things in His Teachings. The fact that He passed over them in silence shows that to Him, they had either no importance or no reality, and were consequently not worthy to take up His time as the Divine Educator of the human race."

It seems that the focus is mainly on the Abrahamic religions. That is odd that he wouldn't have found reincarnation worth his time to mention.

 

[CG Didymus]

To be fair some Christians do too. What seems clear is that indigenous peoples are not doing as well as their colonisers, Outcomes in education, health, and the criminal justice system are not as good. As one Maori lecturer put it "mad, bad, and sad." There is a question about intergeneration trauma from colonisation and the affects of cultural destruction and assimilation. The more important issue though is what can we do about it? How can we make it better? I don't think turning the clock back and sending all the European ancestors of the colonisers home is a practical and fair solution. How about in the USA we send all those of European ancestry back home? Can't see a presidential candidate getting elected promoting that policy.

The thing I'm interested in is who developed the religious beliefs of these tribal societies? I remember things like ancestral worship, shamanism , nature worship, a concept of a Great Spirit, but they did have very superstitious practices and some had human and animal sacrifices... even the Hebrews who were told by the supposed One True God to sacrifice animals.

For me it seems more likely that the people themselves invented their belief systems, rather than God sending them a messenger.

 

[Vinayaka]

Its a controversial question and always best to ask that of the Maoris themselves rather than having an outsider and person of European ancestry such as myself to answer the question.

I'm curious. How diverse were the Maori? In North America there were over 500 distinct languages, and great diversity. One of the oversimplifications the Europeans did was to view them as one large group. (They are all savages.) In fact, a lot of stuff varied ... housing, faith, food, clothing, etc. So much of that was dependent on the physical environment.

 

[CG Didymus]

That's the problem with coming into the conversation without the background of what's been before. So if there is confusion, how much more so with a book that was written nearly two thousand years ago by an author we can't even be certain wrote it. We have stories of amazing, miraculous events. Maybe they happened. For the Baha'is the most important aspect is the deeper meaning behind the miracle. We know God is All-Powerful. Through Jesus He could heal the sick, make the blind see, and bring the dead back to life. Its reasonable to believe many of the gospel stories were literally true IMHO and that is certainly my belief.

Again, I think it is more likely that the gospel writers could have embellished the stories, rather than trying to be symbolic. The stories written after the fact. Some events could have been added to make Jesus fulfill vague prophecies. Like Matthew has Jesus and the family going to Egypt, so he could add that "out of Egypt I called my son"?

But the birth and resurrection are powerful "proofs" to the people they trying to convert, that Jesus was a supernatural being. But, who was there when Jesus was born? Mary was it. There's no more mention of Joseph the step-dad, so he's out of the picture. Easily Matthew and Luke could have fabricated a story about a miraculous virgin birth. Or, maybe there was legends already going around.

Noe the resurrection is more difficult for them to fake. To many witnesses... including Jewish leaders and the Romans. Maybe they embellished it. But to believe it really happened is the most important event in the whole Jesus story... He conquered death and Satan. He said he's forgive their sins and being rising again proves to them that he has the authority and power to do so. And the all important belief about sin for Christians is that people can't perfect themselves. Without Jesus they are lost and doomed to hell.

Now if I was a Greek or Roman or even a so-so Jew, I'd think that's a pretty good deal. What's my religion offering? Here this guy was virgin born, rose from the dead and will forgive me of all my sins? Where do I sign up? Bad news was that a lot of them got tortured to death, but the stories say they went smiling.

So... I don't think the authors were writing in some mysterious symbolic way. They said Jesus healed the sick to build up the credibility and authority of Jesus... that he indeed come from God. But you know, that the extreme view of the stories being literal creates a situation to where every other religion in the world is wrong. I really doubt that. But I do believe all of them had a lot of man-made ideas mixed in with spiritual truths.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes Adrian and as you are aware, the point being made is the stories of healing can be both.

The Physical healed of a Blind person has also been healed by Faith. The important thing being that it was Faith that was the greatest healing, as with Faith a person is given true life, whereas one healed only of material blindness will die and see no more.

Abdul'baha has so wonderfully explained this matter in detail.

Be well be happy Adrian - Regards Tony

As I recall that at one of the healings, Jesus also mentioned that the person's sins are forgiven. Naturally the Pharisees complained saying that only God can forgive sins. Jesus then asked what is more difficult, to say your sins are forgiven or to restore the sight to a blind man? Obviously, there is no way to prove if the person's sin were forgiven, but it would be very obvious if his sight was restored. So Jesus told them that to prove he had the authority he would cure the person's blindness.

Another story about a woman caught in adultery, Jesus tells the accusers that the one without sin to cast the first stone. They all leave. And he tells her that he doesn't accuse her either and to go and sin no more.

So although you try and eliminate the miracles, the story does have both physical and spiritual healing. I think it's sad that the Baha'i Faith has to go so far out of the way to re-interpret the NT away from how Christians believe it, and how, possibly, it was always meant to be taken. Foolish? Yes, indeed. But it's their religion. Believers in Jesus wrote it to make Jesus the greatest thing since sliced bread. Oh, that's symbolic.

 

[CG Didymus]

Hi Tony,

Good to have you here.

As you will know Abdu'l-Baha gives an explanation in some answered questions:

The meaning is not that the Manifestations are unable to perform miracles, for They have all power. But for Them inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 100-102

We weren't present so we don't know what happened. The Baha'i writings do not tell us what historically happened in regards to the miracles of Christ. The exception is the resurrection.

Best Wishes
Adrian

Hmmm? Then why add a symbolic interpretation to them? If the Baha'i writings don't say anything, why start making up symbolic explanations of Biblical events?

 

[CG Didymus]

I'm just waiting for them to make that phone call, and bring in another to add to their side, lol. I'm betting it will be a male, an older male, well indoctrinated.

I thought men and woman are equal? Where's the Baha'i women at? Actually, these guys are indoctrinated enough for me.

I checked on Tony's link on the various prophets. Of course most of it was made up of Biblical prophets. Some of them were even listed under the "manifestation" level.

At the end it said that reincarnation wasn't talked about by Baha'u'llah. They gave a few reason why. One reason was that he didn't think it was worth his time? Too strange. How many people in the world believe it true? How many believe that Buddha and Krishna, both official Baha'i manifestations, say it's true? And, Baha'u'llah has nothing to say about it? Very odd.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, I found something to complain about. Bible prophets fill the pages, but where are Hindu sages?

Also, it says about Baha'u'llah: "...if He had believed that reincarnation was a fact, He, Himself, would have mentioned all of these things in His Teachings. The fact that He passed over them in silence shows that to Him, they had either no importance or no reality, and were consequently not worthy to take up His time as the Divine Educator of the human race."

It seems that the focus is mainly on the Abrahamic religions. That is odd that he wouldn't have found reincarnation worth his time to mention.

Yes there is not a lot in the writings aimed directly and the Hindu Lines of Faith - This is One document that has explored it in detail - Hinduism and the Bahá'í Faith

A Baha'i comes to the subject knowing that Baha'u'llah has confirmed Krishna is a Messenger from God and thus Followers of the teachings of Krishna do have the Light of God. The good thing is when we enter these conversations we too are learning more about what is found in the Hindu Faith. We will always look for the Light that is of God.

The Guardian has advised the Bahai's as to the Hindu Religion

"...The origins of this and many other religions that abound in India are not quite known to us, and even the Orientalists and the students of religions are not in complete accord about the results of their investigations in that field. The Bahá'í writings also do not refer specifically to any of these forms of religion current in India. So, the Guardian feels it impossible to give you any definite and detailed information on that subject. He would urge you, however, to carry on your studies in that field, although its immensity is well-nigh bewildering, ..........." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi: Dawn of a New Day, p. 198)

To me this is no obstacle, it just means we are left to find the Oneness together, I would assume this is because there are a lot of points that we can agree on. Also during Bahá'u'lláh's lifetime, he did encouraged some of his followers to move to India.

Reincarnation has been addressed in the Baha'i writings by Abdul'baha - The question was asked; "What is the truth of the question of reincarnation, which is believed by some people?"

The Answer.—"The object of what we are about to say is to explain the reality—not to deride the beliefs of other people; it is only to explain the facts; that is all. We do not oppose anyone’s ideas, nor do we approve of criticism..." - Link - Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 282-289

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It was humour for Didymus mostly. If another one does come, I hope he's more like you. You're the only one to be up front about your lack of knowledge about Hinduism.

Not at all Vinayaka - I put my hand up, as we are learning all the time. We are here to find the Bridges that are our beliefs.

As loverofhumanity has already said he has learned a lot during His Conversations.

I have said lets find our points of agreement. I have strong Faith there is much truth to be shared.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes there is not a lot in the writings aimed directly and the Hindu Lines of Faith - This is One document that has explored it in detail - Hinduism and the Bahá'í Faith

A Baha'i comes to the subject knowing that Baha'u'llah has confirmed Krishna is a Messenger from God and thus Followers of the teachings of Krishna do have the Light of God. The good thing is when we enter these conversations we too are learning more about what is found in the Hindu Faith. We will always look for the Light that is of God.

The Guardian has advised the Bahai's as to the Hindu Religion

"...The origins of this and many other religions that abound in India are not quite known to us, and even the Orientalists and the students of religions are not in complete accord about the results of their investigations in that field. The Bahá'í writings also do not refer specifically to any of these forms of religion current in India. So, the Guardian feels it impossible to give you any definite and detailed information on that subject. He would urge you, however, to carry on your studies in that field, although its immensity is well-nigh bewildering, ..........." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi: Dawn of a New Day, p. 198)

To me this is no obstacle, it just means we are left to find the Oneness together, I would assume this is because there are a lot of points that we can agree on. Also during Bahá'u'lláh's lifetime, he did encouraged some of his followers to move to India.

Reincarnation has been addressed in the Baha'i writings by Abdul'baha - The question was asked; "What is the truth of the question of reincarnation, which is believed by some people?"

The Answer.—"The object of what we are about to say is to explain the reality—not to deride the beliefs of other people; it is only to explain the facts; that is all. We do not oppose anyone’s ideas, nor do we approve of criticism..." - Link - Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 282-289

Regards Tony

Thanks Tony, I'll check those links later. It's just the way reincarnation was treated seems un-Baha'i like, yet it was Baha'u'llah. It says that maybe he didn't find it worthy of his time? No, it is a core belief of Hindus and Buddhists. If all these centuries they've been taught a wrong doctrine, I think it's very important to know how and why? Krishna and Buddha could have made it undeniably clear that reincarnation is not the truth, but they didn't. Why?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The thing I'm interested in is who developed the religious beliefs of these tribal societies? I remember things like ancestral worship, shamanism , nature worship, a concept of a Great Spirit, but they did have very superstitious practices and some had human and animal sacrifices... even the Hebrews who were told by the supposed One True God to sacrifice animals.

For me it seems more likely that the people themselves invented their belief systems, rather than God sending them a messenger.

I live in remote communities in Australia amongst the Original Native Australian population. I see the Dreamtime stories being a great foundation of Religious Truth, the basic mathematics of the most advanced mathematics one could say.

There are no records as to a Manifestation, but Baha'u'llah has said no man has been left without Guidance. The Dreamtime did carry them through until change was brought to this land. It is a shame that what they believed was not treasured by those that brought the Message of Christ first to these shores. A lot of damage could have been avoided. There are great spiritual Truths within the creation stories that are unlocked in later revelations.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes there is not a lot in the writings aimed directly and the Hindu Lines of Faith - This is One document that has explored it in detail - Hinduism and the Bahá'í Faith

A Baha'i comes to the subject knowing that Baha'u'llah has confirmed Krishna is a Messenger from God and thus Followers of the teachings of Krishna do have the Light of God. The good thing is when we enter these conversations we too are learning more about what is found in the Hindu Faith. We will always look for the Light that is of God.

The Guardian has advised the Bahai's as to the Hindu Religion

"...The origins of this and many other religions that abound in India are not quite known to us, and even the Orientalists and the students of religions are not in complete accord about the results of their investigations in that field. The Bahá'í writings also do not refer specifically to any of these forms of religion current in India. So, the Guardian feels it impossible to give you any definite and detailed information on that subject. He would urge you, however, to carry on your studies in that field, although its immensity is well-nigh bewildering, ..........." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi: Dawn of a New Day, p. 198)

To me this is no obstacle, it just means we are left to find the Oneness together, I would assume this is because there are a lot of points that we can agree on. Also during Bahá'u'lláh's lifetime, he did encouraged some of his followers to move to India.

Reincarnation has been addressed in the Baha'i writings by Abdul'baha - The question was asked; "What is the truth of the question of reincarnation, which is believed by some people?"

The Answer.—"The object of what we are about to say is to explain the reality—not to deride the beliefs of other people; it is only to explain the facts; that is all. We do not oppose anyone’s ideas, nor do we approve of criticism..." - Link - Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 282-289

Regards Tony

Thanks for admitting that that Baha'u'llah didn't address it much. At times I've had the feeling some of the Baha'i' here like to tell me all about my own religion. A rather odd take on things, but Hindus are used to it. The Muslims and Christians have been telling us what we believe for years. As you can imagine, generally incorrectly.

I've read the Baha'i' link before. Some of it was correct, other parts were missing. Although I've had fairly lenghjty discussions in this thread with loverofhumanity, I'll repeat the basics for your benefit.

In Hinduism, to the Vaishnava sect of Hinduism, Krishna is God, period. There is no such thing as a 'manifestation', But that's only in Vaishnavism, one of the 4 main sects. In Saivism, and Shaktism, which are completely ignored in Baha'i' literature, other than to say we don't know much, as quoted above, there is no concept of avatar at all. So Hinduism is really very vast, and much of that simply is too com[plex or diverse for even Hindus to study, let alone outsiders.

As I said before, India is safe haven for many faiths. Hindus have the tolerance Baha'i's sort of claim to, with a notable difference. In Hinduism we accept people as they are, and don't mess around with their belief systems. For example, we'd leave it to the Christians to interpret their scripture, not try to reinterpret it through a Hindu lens.

Yes, there are some similarities, mainly having to do with ahimsa.

The main document at the top of your post is mostly all about how Baha'i' should look at Hinduism, not about Hinduism itself. Very little is actually said about Hinduism.

 

[Vinayaka]

At the end it said that reincarnation wasn't talked about by Baha'u'llah. They gave a few reason why. One reason was that he didn't think it was worth his time?

Maybe next lifetime he got it. Perhaps he was reborn as a Hindu.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hmmm? Then why add a symbolic interpretation to them? If the Baha'i writings don't say anything, why start making up symbolic explanations of Biblical events?

This is covered in the Baha'i writings. The link was posted in a previous post - This is an important aspect of reading any Religious Scripture - Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 83-86

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

There are no records as to a Manifestation, but Baha'u'llah has said no man has been left without Guidance.

I could interpret your 'Guidance' as man's conscience. As Hindus, we believe every person is God, at the core. A spark of the divine is within everyone. Gandhi suspected the British had it, and figured his non-violence protests would work because of it. I seriously doubt he would have employed that tactic much earlier against Islam. A total and complete genocide on the entire Indian subcontinent would have been the result. As with Baha'i', Hinduism's ahimsa does include self-defense as a last resort. Thank goodness. It's also why India keeps matching Pakistan's weaponry ... just in case.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks for admitting that that Baha'u'llah didn't address it much. At times I've had the feeling some of the Baha'i' here like to tell me all about my own religion. A rather odd take on things, but Hindus are used to it. The Muslims and Christians have been telling us what we believe for years. As you can imagine, generally incorrectly.

I've read the Baha'i' link before. Some of it was correct, other parts were missing. Although I've had fairly lenghjty discussions in this thread with loverofhumanity, I'll repeat the basics for your benefit.

In Hinduism, to the Vaishnava sect of Hinduism, Krishna is God, period. There is no such thing as a 'manifestation', But that's only in Vaishnavism, one of the 4 main sects. In Saivism, and Shaktism, which are completely ignored in Baha'i' literature, other than to say we don't know much, as quoted above, there is no concept of avatar at all. So Hinduism is really very vast, and much of that simply is too com[plex or diverse for even Hindus to study, let alone outsiders.

As I said before, India is safe haven for many faiths. Hindus have the tolerance Baha'i's sort of claim to, with a notable difference. In Hinduism we accept people as they are, and don't mess around with their belief systems. For example, we'd leave it to the Christians to interpret their scripture, not try to reinterpret it through a Hindu lens.

Yes, there are some similarities, mainly having to do with ahimsa.

The main document at the top of your post is mostly all about how Baha'i' should look at Hinduism, not about Hinduism itself. Very little is actually said about Hinduism.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, now I know we are indeed on the same path by this Statement "Krishna is God, period".

I had an Idea that the remainder were branches from the Teachings of Krishna. I also now know why there is not much in the Writings of Baha'u'llah directly at the teachings of Krishna, as it would just duplicate all that was written in answer to questions given by peoples of other Faiths.

Great Joy

All we need to do is discuss the teachings that are attributed directly to Krishna.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

All we need to do is discuss the teachings that are attributed directly to Krishna.

Regards Tony

I've never read the Bhagavad Gita. I'm not a Vaishnavite Hindu. It's a Vaishnavite scripture. In the lengthy discussion with loverofhumanity, I think after a very long time he did start to believe me when I mentioned repeatedly that we operated in very very different paradigms. It took a lot of me explaining my beliefs though, for him to actually see how different they were. He had a lot of very obvious misconceptions about Hinduism.

Saivites don't believe in avatars, nor in manifestations, or whatever it is you want to call them. So for that reason, I simply cannot discuss any teachings of Krishna, because I don't know them. Yes there is some overlap of basic concepts all Hindus believe in, like reincarantion, temple worship as sacred space, etc.

Here's a link to some absolute basics. https://www.himalayanacademy.com/media/books/fourteen-questions_ei/web/ch_14.html

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Krishna and Buddha could have made it undeniably clear that reincarnation is not the truth, but they didn't. Why?

I would suggest they did. I would offer that Baha'u'llah has explained what it is the messages originally intended.

It is not a bodily return. It is the return of the same qualities of Spirit into another person.

All Scriptures talk of a time of renewal, it is not wrong to think man has got a few ideas wrong In my short journey as a Baha'i, one soon learns we get many things wrong and we are learning all the time.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

. I also now know why there is not much in the Writings of Baha'u'llah directly at the teachings of Krishna, as it would just duplicate all that was written in answer to questions given by peoples of other Faiths.

No it wouldn't. The Abrahamic paradigm and the dharmic paradigm are ridiculously different. There are more parallels between Hindus and Baha'i' than there are between Hindus and Christianity. Hinduism and Islam are even further apart.