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Egyptian and Jewish exodus what proof?

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That would be an interesting poll. I was sorry to see that this Gallup Poll addressed Christians only. As it stands, the poll seems undermine your opinion of "most Christians." As for "lots of Jews", my experience with non-orthodox Jews suggests an even greater willingness to embrace Torah as something less than the literal word of God passed down through Moses. Certainly Etz Hayim and the Plaut Commentary - the Torahs of choice in the Conservative and Reform movements - are laced with explanatory text that argue against literalism.


It seems that you're exposing a personal bias.


Perhaps. Nevertheless, one discussion of the Epic of Gilgamesh quotes ...

"You know the city Shurrupak, it stands on the banks of the Euphrates. That city grew old and the gods that were in it were old. There was Anu, lord of the firmament {earth}, their father, and warrior Enlil their counselor, Ninurta the helper, and Ennugi, watcher over canals; and with them also was Ea. In those days the world teemed, the people multiplied, the world bellowed like a wild bull, and the great god was aroused by the clamor. Enlil heard the clamor and he said to the gods in council, 'The uproar of mankind is intolerable and sleep is no longer possible by reason of the babel {everyone talking at once}.' So the gods agreed to exterminate mankind. [emphasis added - JS] Enlil did this, but Ea warned me in a dream. He whispered their words to my house of reeds, “Reed-house, reed-house! Wall, O wall, hearken reed-house, wall reflect; O man of Shurrupak, son of Ubara-Tutu; tear down your house and build a boat, abandon possessions and look for life, despise worldly goods and save your soul alive. Tear down your house, I say, and build a boat. These are the measurements of the barque {boat} as you shall build her: let her beam equal her length, let her deck be roofed like the vault that covers the abyss; then take up into the boat the seed of all living creatures."

In the Biblical flood narrative:

The Lord saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created—people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the sight of the Lord. [NSRV]​



Have you read the book?

Yes the initial period had the Gods turn hostile to humans, then there was a political revolution in heavens and the new Gods became friendly or a change of heart. Thus history began. That's the advantage of having many gods.

I have read excerpts, as much as Google book view allows. I was asking you to browse not buy. You will find that moral ideals laid out by God's of Egypt or Mesopotamia (except Assyrians) were quite advanced.
Instruction of Ptah-hotep


You have not looked at the poll carefully. The values shown were for all Americans. Finally the choices were
a) Bible was the actual word of God (30% of Christians)
b) Bible was the inspired word of God (54% of Christians)
c) Bible was an ancient book of fables (14 % of Christians)

Now this does not address the issue of whether the interpretation should be literal or not. For example Bible contains Psalms, NT letters of Paul which are not actual words of God as any Christian who thinks for a minute will concur.

The Pew survey attached below (includes American Jews) provides a better answer, as well as shows the attitude of other religions as well.
Religious Landscape Study


None of this provides what Jews and Christians think about plagues of Egypt and Exodus which are keystone events. From what I read, the beliefs on their actual historicity is tenaciously held
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/144177/reconciling-biblical-criticism
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Never did I give the slightest hint if I believed the story is literally true or not. All I have done is stay within the story line. According to the Bible, God is Just. Therefore his actions are just. We must then come to the conclusion taking the lives of Egyptian children must have been just. The question should then be why it was just and not if it was just. In order to answer the question we have to stay within the story line and not deviate from it.

“…For the Lord is a God of justice…” (Isaiah 30:18)

We could just as well have been discussing Goldilocks and the three bears. Goldilocks by definition was a squatter. Should she have been persecuted under the law? Some would yes. She had taken possession of an unoccupied home without permission. Ohers may say no. She had taken possession of the home out of necessity and meant no malice. It would make no difference whether or not the story is true in order to discuss Goldilocks’s right or wrong behavior. But in order to do so we have to stay within the confines of the story.

Goldilocks and the Three Bears - Wikipedia

Squatters Rights and How To Evict Them | LandLordStation.com

the definition of squatter
Well, I am uninterested in playing that game. Anybody can invent a story to make any action seem just. The only question I am interested in is evaluating whether the God character portrayed in the Bible appears good or just based the stories associated with him in the Bible. I have no intention on assuming that he is just apriori.

In fact I can do what you do and reverse it. Assume God of the Bible is Satan in disguise and add filler material to show how all his actions were actually malicious and evil designed to foment violence, hatred and enslave humans to him. It would be quite easy.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
Dear Mr Rawlinson of the 19th century, which is the last century most people ever get to for their schoolings:

I have a hard time believing no Jew ever questioned the scriptures, given how often the scriptural authors complain the regular folks aren't listening to them and how "they knew not the Lord".


Mr. Rawlinson ... seriously? If you read ancient Chinese texts, like Journey to the West, and find a bunch of locations and cultural things that are verifiable, does that mean a pig and a monkey and a river demon joined a monk on an adventure to India?


It is a love letter that Yahweh will offer a single family shelter in a vast fertile paradise, only to go to sleep for about 400 years while their descendants get (supposedly) treated like crap.


You don't depend on 19th century scholarship desperate to justify belief in scripture?


Just as long as they don't have iron. God is apparently a pokemon weak against steel attacks. :p


Egypt, prior to Bablyon, also represents the most hated thing the prophets/authors could think up: civilization. They idealized the nomadic life where THEY were the ones the little people went to for problems. In civilization, you need more than a simple prophet who spouts off things every once in awhile when the mood strikes him/her. They hated freedom, really. :)


Or maybe just mindwipe the guy so the Hebrews can just leave and Pharaoh won't even realize it?


Exactly. It's a political metaphor for what was going on at the time written, except it was written mostly by people who, if alive today, would be anchoring at Fox News.


It's not so much that they left as that most of them were never there in the first place, unless you count territories IN Canaan as Egypt since Egypt ruled it at certain times.


Archaeology.
Again, the Exodus is also popular with the CSA people (as well as the people those people tried to screw over). It got reused as a metaphor for 19th century (oh, look, it's THAT century again, see above) where Africans used it as a message of hope over slavery and Europeans used it to tell themselves they freed themselves from evil black people.


I'm a huge fan of the movie. Basically have it memorized. Cecil B. DeMille is not a biblical prophet and even at the beginning of the movie, you see he used multiple sources for his ideas. But deep down, especially when you understand the decade it was filmed, you have lily white Moses defeating a really tan Ramses, who had been technologically, legally, and ethically superior to just about every civilization in the area, at least according to Egyptian documentation. This is a film for those white "sovereign citizens" who think they don't need a government telling them what to do. He also did one in the 20's which was ALSO a high time for the post Civil War KKK and eugenics cancers of society.


Because God apparently doesn't know how to resolve things diplomatically or with any kind of sense.

Moses: Let's go, homies. Back to the land of our fathers!
Hebrews: Supposedly our fathers are from here and have been for 400 years.
Moses: No, you gotta go WAY back. I'm getting you free from slavery.
Hebrews: So, you have some territory set up?
Moses: Nah. We'll have to kill people and take their stuff.
Hebrews: We are slaves without weapons and they'll be mighty ticked off.
Moses: It's cool, though. I have a magic fire tornado and a magic stick. Just wipe some lamb's blood on your doors so God won't kill you and we'll sneak out later.
Hebrews: We're God's chosen people?
Moses: Exactly.
Hebrews (head tilt): He doesn't know who we are? We have to tell Him? What's to stop Egyptians from seeing what we're doing and putting lamb's blood on THEIR DOORS?
Moses: God's not an idiot. Don't be stupid.
Hebrews: He wants us to go out with few supplies into a land filled with bandits and angry future victims of your raids with a very angry army behind us and He's NOT stupid?
Moses: God will provide!
Hebrews: HE could provide NOW. Where's He been for 400 years?
Moses: He's heard your cries of bondage!
Hebrews: Longest. Wait. Times. Ever. If modernity is ever invented, we hope no one ever has to wait centuries to get something useful done that could be solved in about 10 minutes or less.

LMAO! Yes that's great.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The events recorded in Exodus and Numbers occurred 3,500 years ago. Whether one accepts reality or not is, of course, each one's choice. Jesus Christ accepted these accounts as reliable history, as do the rest of the Bible's writers.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
The events recorded in Exodus and Numbers occurred 3,500 years ago. Whether one accepts reality or not is, of course, each one's choice. Jesus Christ accepted these accounts as reliable history, as do the rest of the Bible's writers.

So? First, you'd have to show that Jesus was an actual historical figure--without using anything from the bible itself (the bible remains your claim, here).

But good luck with that one-- there does not appear to be any, non-biblical historical documentation about the man... anywhere.... except for 120-150 years too late...

hmmmmmm....
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Or maybe just mindwipe the guy so the Hebrews can just leave and Pharaoh won't even realize it?

Ooooh. Mindwipe. Very Star Trek. :D

I do find it amusing that modern literature has come up with better alternatives to simply murdering the bad guys...

... although murdering the "black hats" does remain a popular choice. Even Harry Potter had to go down that path. ;)
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Moses: Let's go, homies. Back to the land of our fathers!
Hebrews: Supposedly our fathers are from here and have been for 400 years.
Moses: No, you gotta go WAY back. I'm getting you free from slavery.
Hebrews: So, you have some territory set up?
Moses: Nah. We'll have to kill people and take their stuff.
Hebrews: We are slaves without weapons and they'll be mighty ticked off.
Moses: It's cool, though. I have a magic fire tornado and a magic stick. Just wipe some lamb's blood on your doors so God won't kill you and we'll sneak out later.
Hebrews: We're God's chosen people?
Moses: Exactly.
Hebrews (head tilt): He doesn't know who we are? We have to tell Him? What's to stop Egyptians from seeing what we're doing and putting lamb's blood on THEIR DOORS?
Moses: God's not an idiot. Don't be stupid.
Hebrews: He wants us to go out with few supplies into a land filled with bandits and angry future victims of your raids with a very angry army behind us and He's NOT stupid?
Moses: God will provide!
Hebrews: HE could provide NOW. Where's He been for 400 years?
Moses: He's heard your cries of bondage!
Hebrews: Longest. Wait. Times. Ever. If modernity is ever invented, we hope no one ever has to wait centuries to get something useful done that could be solved in about 10 minutes or less.

Very nice.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So? First, you'd have to show that Jesus was an actual historical figure--without using anything from the bible itself (the bible remains your claim, here).

But good luck with that one-- there does not appear to be any, non-biblical historical documentation about the man... anywhere.... except for 120-150 years too late...

hmmmmmm....
I can see why you call yourself Bob the Unbeliever. A quick search about Jesus historicity refutes your claim of no non- biblical historical documentation about the Christ.
That aside, I think the following few quotes of many are apropos:
  • Michael Grant, a historian and an expert on ancient classical civilization, noted: “If we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus’ existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.”

  • Rudolf Bultmann, a professor of New Testament studies, stated: “The doubt as to whether Jesus really existed is unfounded and not worth refutation. No sane person can doubt that Jesus stands as founder behind the historical movement whose first distinct stage is represented by the oldest Palestinian community [of Christians].”
    Source
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I can see why you call yourself Bob the Unbeliever. A quick search about Jesus historicity refutes your claim of no non- biblical historical documentation about the Christ.
That aside, I think the following few quotes of many are apropos:
  • Michael Grant, a historian and an expert on ancient classical civilization, noted: “If we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus’ existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.”

  • Rudolf Bultmann, a professor of New Testament studies, stated: “The doubt as to whether Jesus really existed is unfounded and not worth refutation. No sane person can doubt that Jesus stands as founder behind the historical movement whose first distinct stage is represented by the oldest Palestinian community [of Christians].”
    Source

Both of your "sources" are highly biased. And therefore? Nothing they claim is trustworthy.

Repeat: Nothing they say can be trusted; they have an agenda.

But nice try.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
THAT is the "message" you get? Wow.

I have read the story of Exodus at least 100 times--likely more-- (I used to teach sunday school, back in the day).

And I got a lot of messages from that passage-- but "god will redeem" isn't one of them!

It simply does not fly--- they are "rescued" from high civilization (of that day) into a barren desert to nearly starve, nearly die of dehydration and are DELIBERATELY miss guided in their journey for 40 years!

That is a whole new level of malice and deliberate torture!
What did you “teach in Sunday School” about the exodus? What is the message of the exodus to orthodox Christians and Jews? “Orthodox” being defined as the majority. Not only did you step into heresy but blasphemy is under your feet.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
What did you “teach in Sunday School” about the exodus? What is the message of the exodus to orthodox Christians and Jews? “Orthodox” being defined as the majority. Not only did you step into heresy but blasphemy is under your feet.

What a nice bit of Strawman Projection you have there-- you ASSume that I was the same back then, as I am now.

Nothing could be further from the truth: I Grew Up, and Put Away Childish Things (like faith, belief and the idea that the bible is Divine in any way, shape or form).

I Got Better.

How nice of you to be so.... judgemental.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
What did you “teach in Sunday School” about the exodus? What is the message of the exodus to orthodox Christians and Jews? “Orthodox” being defined as the majority. Not only did you step into heresy but blasphemy is under your feet.

LMAO! Oh, my ... you were serious???? LAUGHING HARDER.

I cannot POSSIBLY be guilty of either of those things. I reject your dogma in it's entirety-- therefore, neither "heresy" nor "blasphemy" applies to ME.

That is so very, very funny!
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
As of yet, you did not answer the question.

The question was meaningless: as I accept neither "heretic" nor "blasphemy" as valid terms.

They do not apply to me; I am not under the authority of anything or anyone where they would apply; I live in a secular country-- no religious laws permitted.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
As of yet, you did not answer the question.

Blasphemy: Religious laws that are put into place to keep people from realizing religion has NOTHING to support it's claims, and therefore needs laws to keep people from asking.

Heresy: what True Believers™ call anyone who has either escaped, or was never trapped by the lies that prop up religion.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
What a nice bit of Strawman Projection you have there-- you ASSume that I was the same back then, as I am now.

Nothing could be further from the truth: I Grew Up, and Put Away Childish Things (like faith, belief and the idea that the bible is Divine in any way, shape or form).

I Got Better.

How nice of you to be so.... judgemental.

The question was meaningless: as I accept neither "heretic" nor "blasphemy" as valid terms.

They do not apply to me; I am not under the authority of anything or anyone where they would apply; I live in a secular country-- no religious laws permitted.
The more you write, the more you prove my point
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
The more you write, the more you prove my point

What? You had a point, other than to sit in a judgemental ivory tower?

You cannot prove your point, apart from repeating your silliness. I have attempted to put it in tiny words so you can get a clue-- but, alas, you remain clueless.

Neither blasphemy nor heresy apply to an atheist-- by definition.

You are welcome to attempt a rebuttal, regarding those terms-- instead of your childish "no you di-int" posts so far...
 

roger1440

I do stuff
What? You had a point, other than to sit in a judgemental ivory tower?

You cannot prove your point, apart from repeating your silliness. I have attempted to put it in tiny words so you can get a clue-- but, alas, you remain clueless.

Neither blasphemy nor heresy apply to an atheist-- by definition.

You are welcome to attempt a rebuttal, regarding those terms-- instead of your childish "no you di-int" posts so far...
What did you teach? This is not a hard question.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
What did you teach? This is not a hard question.

Oh. I totally missed that was your question, what with your judgemental and ugly attitude back there...

Seriously. You could try to be less of a .... <expletive> if you wanted to actually converse in a polite way...

What did I teach in sunday school? Which time? I was a 3 to 5 year old teacher for 3 years-- never missed a sunday. Those wee ones were a hoot, and incredibly smart. I never spoke down to them-- that would have been..... Judgemental.

But for about 10? 15 years? I lost track... I was a volunteer in the youth program. Never missed helping out in summer camp, either-- many times I took two weeks' vacation to teach two different camps. Drove the church bus too-- still have my commercial license, in fact. I gave countless hours-- years' worth-- being with those kids. Sometimes, if I had not volunteered? There would not have BEEN a program at all...

As for what I taught? Well... I wasn't an atheist back then. But you are so Judgemental, that I doubt YOU would approve. Right? I HAVE to have YOUR, PERSONAL approval.... isn't that how it works? ONLY YOU CAN BE THE "CORRECT" JUDGE?

But I got better. You can too.
 
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