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"I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse"

joe1776

Well-Known Member
In the movie, The Godfather, Marlon Brando, in the title role, delivered this line a couple of times to explain how he was going to get someone to comply with his request. It's about reward and punishment.

Reward on its own is fairly effective. Punishment on its own is equally effective. But the two combined are very powerful in coercing compliance.

A few days after my seventh birthday, a Catholic priest made me an offer that most seven year olds can't refuse. If I believed as a Catholic, I'd go to Heaven (eternal reward). If I didn't, I'd go to Hell (eternal punishment).

There would be reward in this life too.

Only Catholics go to Heaven he told me. He didn't tell me this, but the idea of belonging to an elite group favored by God makes a strong appeal to the arrogant side of human nature.

The priest was wasting his time with me because I'd been born with an inclination to doubt. On hearing a claim of any consequence, my attitude is "Well, maybe that's true and maybe it isn't. I'll have to think about it." Faith, a belief without evidence, is impossible for me. It's not an option.

By making this offer so young, the priest had tried to rob me of a freewill choice as an adult and, for a while, that pissed me off. But then I realized that the same thing had been done to him when he was seven years old. So, I bear no grudge.
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
OK, I agree we shouldn't blindly accept any belief system. The important question then becomes, where DO we go from there?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
By taking me so young, the priest had tried to rob me of a freewill choice as an adult and, for a while, that pissed me off. But then I realized that the same thing had been done to him when he was seven years old. So, I bear no grudge.
Same thing happened to me.
It was years and years before I came to the realization that it didn't matter much. That what was important about the church was the community and organizational opportunities and such. Lots of people don't need the sort of manipulation you are describing to stay in the community.
But some do and it does work. Not perfectly, and there are costs involved with using such primitive brain washing technology in the modern world. There are many vehemently anti-Catholic ex-Catholics out there. And some very weak minded and weak willed Catholics.

Is it a positive, a negative, or a wash?

:shrug:
Tom
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
In the movie, The Godfather, Marlon Brando, in the title role, delivered this line a couple of times to explain how he was going to get someone to comply with his request. It's about reward and punishment.

Reward on its own is fairly effective. Punishment on its own is equally effective. But the two combined are very powerful in coercing compliance.

A few days after my seventh birthday, a Catholic priest made me an offer that most seven year olds can't refuse. If I believed as a Catholic, I'd go to Heaven (eternal reward). If I didn't, I'd go to Hell (eternal punishment).

There would be reward in this life too.

Only Catholics go to Heaven he told me. He didn't tell me this, but the idea of belonging to an elite group favored by God makes a strong appeal to the arrogant side of human nature.

The priest was wasting his time with me because I'd been born with an inclination to doubt. On hearing a claim of any consequence, my attitude is "Well, maybe that's true and maybe it isn't. I'll have to think about it." Faith, a belief without evidence, is impossible for me. It's not an option.

By taking me so young, the priest had tried to rob me of a freewill choice as an adult and, for a while, that pissed me off. But then I realized that the same thing had been done to him when he was seven years old. So, I bear no grudge.

I agree.

That is Christian proselytizing in a nutshell: making offers that cannot (or should not) be refused.

Ciao

- viole
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
OK, I agree we shouldn't blindly accept any belief system. The important question then becomes, where DO we go from there?
My personal belief system is something like a software application. It has undergone continual upgrades over the years. My focus has been on useful knowledge such as the goal of life which I've decided is moral progress, becoming a better human being.

How about you? Where are you headed?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
My personal belief system is something like a software application. It has undergone continual upgrades over the years. My focus has been on useful knowledge such as the goal of life which I've decided is moral progress, becoming a better human being.
Do you have any spiritual beliefs (about the super-physical?).
How about you? Where are you headed?
I went to Catholic school myself and had the similar Catholic indoctrination as a child. I am now interested in pursuing the eastern/New Age path of Self-Realization that this is all One Consciousness.

My interest in spirituality sprung from my study of the paranormal that led me to believe there is more to this universe than meets the eye. And there are those that can tell us about this 'more' and guide us to live in harmony with this mind-boggling universe.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
A few days after my seventh birthday, a Catholic priest made me an offer that most seven year olds can't refuse. If I believed as a Catholic, I'd go to Heaven (eternal reward). If I didn't, I'd go to Hell (eternal punishment).

Only Catholics go to Heaven he told me.
You ran into a terrible priest because the RCC does not nor did not teach that one would go to hell if they weren't Catholic, and also that no one can guarantee that they or anyone else is automatically going to heaven if they belong to the RCC.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Same thing happened to me.
It was years and years before I came to the realization that it didn't matter much. That what was important about the church was the community and organizational opportunities and such. Lots of people don't need the sort of manipulation you are describing to stay in the community.
But some do and it does work. Not perfectly, and there are costs involved with using such primitive brain washing technology in the modern world. There are many vehemently anti-Catholic ex-Catholics out there. And some very weak minded and weak willed Catholics.

Is it a positive, a negative, or a wash?

:shrug:
Tom
That's a good question, Tom. I think it depends on what things we value most.

If I could have faked belief, I see the same advantages of community that you enjoy. And, with its vast organization, the church can do a helluva lot of good in the world.

But my focus has been on moral progress, learning to become a better human being and I see traditional Western religion making moral progress only when forced to it by public opinion, a fact which keeps them about a half-century behind the moral curve.
 
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suncowiam

Well-Known Member
By taking me so young, the priest had tried to rob me of a freewill choice as an adult and, for a while, that pissed me off. But then I realized that the same thing had been done to him when he was seven years old. So, I bear no grudge.

Same thing happened to me.
It was years and years before I came to the realization that it didn't matter much. That what was important about the church was the community and organizational opportunities and such. Lots of people don't need the sort of manipulation you are describing to stay in the community.
But some do and it does work. Not perfectly, and there are costs involved with using such primitive brain washing technology in the modern world. There are many vehemently anti-Catholic ex-Catholics out there. And some very weak minded and weak willed Catholics.

Is it a positive, a negative, or a wash?

:shrug:
Tom

Wow, talk about taking out of context...
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
You ran into a terrible priest because the RCC does not nor did not teach that one would go to hell if they weren't Catholic, and also that no one can guarantee that they or anyone else is automatically going to heaven if they belong to the RCC.
The Catholic Church put themselves into a bind by claiming to be infallible on moral matters. If they were indeed infallible, they wouldn't need to change. So, when they make changes to keep up with the moral progress of Western culture, they refuse to admit it.

I'm an older man. When I was a boy, the Church's position was exactly as the priest gave it to me.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Do you have any spiritual beliefs (about the super-physical?)..
Like you, I've had some paranormal experiences which influenced my beliefs. I'm convinced that the subconscious part of our brain is in touch with a greater reality. However, my practical mind isn't given to a lot of speculation about its nature.
 
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columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Wow, talk about taking out of context...
I am not sure what you mean.
I was taught things so similar that I can completely relate to the OP.
Of course, I was a little kid and might not remember exactly what the forbidding "people in black" were telling me to believe.

But I do vaguely recall realizing that Protestants believed in Jesus. I remember not knowing that. I remember understanding that they were fake Christians who went to a pretend church.
Keep in mind, we are talking about a single digits age person growing up in a super Catholic world. My understanding was weak in a lot of ways.
Tom
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
If I could have faked belief, I see the same advantages of community that you enjoy.
I find no reason to do the fake belief thing at all. Maybe my parish is better than most.

I am fairly well known in my small town. Lots of people know perfectly well that I am a highly opinionated gay atheist, including the pastor of the church, the staff, and the most influential members. They all seem quite able to hold nuanced opinions about me, and lots of other things. They might strongly disapprove of my 20+ year marriage to another dude, but they at least recognize that my marriage is more stable than most marriages today. They may find my atheism unfathomable, but they appreciate that I can form a hard edged argument against casual feticide better than theirs.

I believe I represent a fair number of logical assaults on the teachings of the church and the Bible, which I enjoy doing.

Tom
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
I am not sure what you mean.
I was taught things so similar that I can completely relate to the OP.
Of course, I was a little kid and might not remember exactly what the forbidding "people in black" were telling me to believe.

But I do vaguely recall realizing that Protestants believed in Jesus. I remember not knowing that. I remember understanding that they were fake Christians who went to a pretend church.
Keep in mind, we are talking about a single digits age person growing up in a super Catholic world. My understanding was weak in a lot of ways.
Tom

"By taking me so young"

I took that way out of context. Read that before even reading the OP.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
However, my practical mind isn't given to a lot of speculation about its nature.
I would recommend putting this on your to-do list. You may find others have pursued the question and have interesting things to say. I can't think of anything more important and interesting than understanding and co-operating with the nature of our existence.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
I find no reason to do the fake belief thing at all. Maybe my parish is better than most.
That's good. You're lucky.

My crowd is older and conservative. My Catholic friends and relatives have only recently learned to tolerate Jews and Protestants. They've had to come a long way to do that.

I can have a frank and interesting discussion on religion with my Jewish friends. But the Christians get angry with me, so the subject's off the table with them.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
My crowd is older and conservative. My Catholic friends and relatives have only recently learned to tolerate Jews and Protestants. They've had to come a long way to do that.

What does tolerate mean? Before did they cross to the other side of a street when they saw a Jew coming?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
"By taking me so young"

I took that way out of context. Read that before even reading the OP.
Ew!

I guess I am a bit hardened against casual accusations of paedophilia. I actually was a gay boy and nobody ever offered to have sex with me. Maybe I was the ugliest third grader ever.

It isn't like it was impossible. More than once, I woke up in my own bed to find a strange man in his underwear. I knew immediately that he must be a Catholic priest. Given the family I grew up in, this wasn't even odd. If a 20 something guy shows up at your house you don't bunk him with your daughters. You put him in with the boys.
D'oh
Tom
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
I would recommend putting this on your to-do list. You may find others have pursued the question and have interesting things to say. I can't think of anything more important and interesting than understanding and co-operating with the nature of our existence.
That's just not my path, George.

I feel that I'm "cooperating with the nature of existence" by striving to become a better human being. I think that's our purpose.
 
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