Egyptian and Jewish exodus what proof?

[Jayhawker Soule]

has anyone ever told you that you are incredibly rude? Isn't your religion supposed to turn you, you know into a BETTER person?

Has anyone ever told you that petty ad hominem is generally worthless?

 

[Riders]

German proverb time: Wie man in den Wald hineinruft, so schallt es heraus.

Can also be found by using a search engine. Just saying.

That's the exact same thing I said when you originally brought it up. So what was the point of telling me to research it on google? You can find anything on google any opinions, or in any search .

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

That's the exact same thing I said when you originally brought it up. So what was the point of telling me to research it on google? You can find anything on google any opinions, or in any search .

but-but-but-- teh GOOGLES..... eet iz haarrrd...

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Sadly, "the Exodus never happened" has long since been reduced to a childish, agenda-driven mantra fueled by selection bias.

Which agenda is that? Historical and archeological accuracy?

 

[roger1440]

I'm more interested in how they managed to stretch an 11 day walk into something that lasted for 40 years.That's even less believable than the Egyptians using slaves to build the Pyramids.

Do you know it took 40 years? The answer can be found in the story.

 

[Desert Snake]

Which agenda is that? Historical and archeological accuracy?

I like to think that Im applying logic skills. Can you explain to me why and how Apiru/Habiru, doesnt transliterate to "Hebrew"?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I like to think that Im applying logic skills. Can you explain to me why and how Apiru/Habiru, doesnt transliterate to "Hebrew"?

How exactly does that relate to rejecting Exodus because it has no archeological or historical basis?

 

[Desert Snake]

How exactly does that relate to rejecting Exodus because it has no archeological or historical basis?

Historical basis is an excercise in subjectivity. Youll be missing a lot of good conclusions depending on how you utilize that fact.

 

[shunyadragon]

Historical basis is an exercise in subjectivity.

Obfuscation! Academic history is based on objective archaeological evidence. You need to clarify your argument more specifically.
.

You,ll be missing a lot of good conclusions depending on how you utilize that fact.

Here you wish to utilize 'fact,' but above you say the basis of history is subjective. What facts do you wish to consider?

 

[sayak83]

I like to think that Im applying logic skills. Can you explain to me why and how Apiru/Habiru, doesnt transliterate to "Hebrew"?

Yes. Certainly. It comes from west semitic word hapiru or the Cognate Akkadian habbatu which means bandit.

Wiki

—--------------------------------------------

Sumerian documents from the 15th century next describe these groups speaking various languages, and although described as vagrant, also having significant influence and military organisation. Those people are designated by a two-character cuneiform logogram transcribed as SA.GAZ, which is equated with the West Semitic hapiru and the Akkadian habbatu meaning bandit, robber or raider.[7]

Early Mesopotamian sourcesEdit
The Sumerian logogram SA.GAZ appears in texts from Southern Mesopotamia, dated from about 1850 BC, where it is applied to small bands of soldiers, apparently mercenaries at the service of local city-states and being supplied with food or sheep.

One of those texts uses the Akkadian cuneiform word Hapiri instead of the logogram; another described them as "soldiers from the West". Their names are predominantly Akkadian; some are West Semitic, some unknown. Their origins, when recorded, are in local towns.

A letter to an Old Assyrian merchant resident in Alishar requests his aid in freeing or ransoming some Hapiri, formerly attached to the palace of Shalahshuwe (as yet unidentified), now prisoners of the local authorities.

The Tikunani Prism, dated from around 1550 BC, lists the names of 438 Habiru soldiers or servants of king Tunip-Teššup of Tikunani, a small city-state in central Mesopotamia. The majority of these names are typically Hurrian, the rest are Semitic, one is Kassite.

Another text from around 1500 BC describes the Hapiru as soldiers or laborers, organized into bands of various sizes commanded by SA.KAS leaders: one band from Tapduwa has 15 soldiers, another from Sarkuhe has 29, and another from Alalakh has 1,436. [8]

 

[Desert Snake]

Yes. Certainly. It comes from west semitic word hapiru or the Cognate Akkadian habbatu which means bandit.

Wiki

—--------------------------------------------

Sumerian documents from the 15th century next describe these groups speaking various languages, and although described as vagrant, also having significant influence and military organisation. Those people are designated by a two-character cuneiform logogram transcribed as SA.GAZ, which is equated with the West Semitic hapiru and the Akkadian habbatu meaning bandit, robber or raider.[7]

Early Mesopotamian sourcesEdit
The Sumerian logogram SA.GAZ appears in texts from Southern Mesopotamia, dated from about 1850 BC, where it is applied to small bands of soldiers, apparently mercenaries at the service of local city-states and being supplied with food or sheep.

One of those texts uses the Akkadian cuneiform word Hapiri instead of the logogram; another described them as "soldiers from the West". Their names are predominantly Akkadian; some are West Semitic, some unknown. Their origins, when recorded, are in local towns.

A letter to an Old Assyrian merchant resident in Alishar requests his aid in freeing or ransoming some Hapiri, formerly attached to the palace of Shalahshuwe (as yet unidentified), now prisoners of the local authorities.

The Tikunani Prism, dated from around 1550 BC, lists the names of 438 Habiru soldiers or servants of king Tunip-Teššup of Tikunani, a small city-state in central Mesopotamia. The majority of these names are typically Hurrian, the rest are Semitic, one is Kassite.

Another text from around 1500 BC describes the Hapiru as soldiers or laborers, organized into bands of various sizes commanded by SA.KAS leaders: one band from Tapduwa has 15 soldiers, another from Sarkuhe has 29, and another from Alalakh has 1,436. [8]

And how have you answered my question?

 

[sayak83]

And how have you answered my question?

That it's a genetic designation for bandits and mercenaries used throughout the region for a long time and it's use cannot be connected to any specific people.
When speaking of early nomadic proto-jews, the word shasu (wanderer) was used by the Egyptians as is attested in the Amarna letters.

From wiki again


The earliest known reference to the Shasu is in a 15th-century BCE list of peoples in Transjordan. It is used in a list of enemies inscribed on column bases at the temple of Soleb built by Amenhotep III. Copied later by either Seti I or Ramesses II at Amarah-West, the list mentions six groups of Shasu: the Shasu of S'rr, the Shasu of Rbn, the Shasu of Sm't, the Shasu of Wrbr, the Shasu of Yhw, and the Shasu of Pysps.[4][5]

There are two Egyptian texts, one dated to the period of Amenhotep III (14th century BCE), the other to the age of Ramesses II (13th century BCE) which refer to 'Yahu in the land of the Šosū-nomads' (t3 š3św yhw3), in which yhw3/Yahu is a toponym.

Regarding the name yhw3, Michael Astour observed that the "hieroglyphic rendering corresponds very precisely to the Hebrew tetragrammaton YHWH, or Yahweh, and antedates the hitherto oldest occurrence of that divine name – on the Moabite Stone – by over five hundred years."[6] One hypothesis is that it is reasonable to infer that the demonym 'Israel' recorded on the Merneptah Stele refers to a Shasu enclave, and that, since later Biblical tradition portrays Yahweh "coming forth from Seʿir",[7] the Shasu, originally from Moab and northern Edom/Seʿir, went on to form one major element in the amalgam that was to constitute the "Israel" which later established the Kingdom of Israel.[8] Anson Rainey came to a similar conclusion in his analysis of the el-Amarna letters.[9] K. Van Der Toorn concludes that, "By the 14th century BC, before the cult of Yahweh had reached Israel, groups of Edomite and Midianites worshipped Yahweh as their god."[10]

 

[Desert Snake]

That it's a genetic designation for bandits and mercenaries used throughout the region for a long time and it's use cannot be connected to any specific people.
When speaking of early nomadic proto-jews, the word shasu (wanderer) was used by the Egyptians as is attested in the Amarna letters.

From wiki again


The earliest known reference to the Shasu is in a 15th-century BCE list of peoples in Transjordan. It is used in a list of enemies inscribed on column bases at the temple of Soleb built by Amenhotep III. Copied later by either Seti I or Ramesses II at Amarah-West, the list mentions six groups of Shasu: the Shasu of S'rr, the Shasu of Rbn, the Shasu of Sm't, the Shasu of Wrbr, the Shasu of Yhw, and the Shasu of Pysps.[4][5]

There are two Egyptian texts, one dated to the period of Amenhotep III (14th century BCE), the other to the age of Ramesses II (13th century BCE) which refer to 'Yahu in the land of the Šosū-nomads' (t3 š3św yhw3), in which yhw3/Yahu is a toponym.

Regarding the name yhw3, Michael Astour observed that the "hieroglyphic rendering corresponds very precisely to the Hebrew tetragrammaton YHWH, or Yahweh, and antedates the hitherto oldest occurrence of that divine name – on the Moabite Stone – by over five hundred years."[6] One hypothesis is that it is reasonable to infer that the demonym 'Israel' recorded on the Merneptah Stele refers to a Shasu enclave, and that, since later Biblical tradition portrays Yahweh "coming forth from Seʿir",[7] the Shasu, originally from Moab and northern Edom/Seʿir, went on to form one major element in the amalgam that was to constitute the "Israel" which later established the Kingdom of Israel.[8] Anson Rainey came to a similar conclusion in his analysis of the el-Amarna letters.[9] K. Van Der Toorn concludes that, "By the 14th century BC, before the cult of Yahweh had reached Israel, groups of Edomite and Midianites worshipped Yahweh as their god."[10]

We're back to using common sense here. The name description is taken from what we would infer to be their name for themselves, hence the inference to west semitic Hapiru.


This is similar to how we call Norwegians, Norwegians.

 

[rusra02]

You are greatly and selectively overstating the claims of of evidence supporting the Biblical Exodus. First, the archaeological evidence is that the Sinai was not really truly 'wilderness.' The climate was not as arid then as today, and numerous oasis existed and inhabited by nomadic people, and trade routes crisscrossed the Sinai. The Egyptian had mines in various locations in the Sinai mining minerals like Azurite. Some of these oasis were described in the journey in Exodus.

Archaeological evidence exists that some Hebrews were slaves in Egypt, but that is all. The elephant in the room is that there is absolutely no evidence of a Hebrew invasion of Canaan nor Judea.

The Bible records the destruction of Jericho as the first conquest made by the Israelites. In ancient times, it was common for attackers to besiege a fortified city, and upon conquering the city, to loot it. In Jericho’s ruins, archaeologists found large supplies of food. Biblical Archaeology Review states: “The most abundant item found in the destruction, apart from pottery, was grain. . . . This is unique in the annals of Palestinian archaeology. Perhaps a jar or two might be found, but to find such an extensive amount of grain is exceptional.”
This supports the Bible record, for no spoil in Jericho was to be taken, at Jehovah's command.(Joshua 6:17)
The Bible record is specific as to times and places the Israelites conquered. I believe the record in the Bible stands as historical fact, whether confirmed by archeological discoveries or not.

 

[rusra02]

Pottery shards? Bones from the many animals they had with them, who die? Animals die all the time. Graves of the many infants who died over the 40 years of wandering? By the best estimates, 9 of 10 live births, ended up with a dead fetus/baby. We can reasonably expect quite a number of such graves, over such a tiny area, considering there were around a million (or more--depends on how you count) people at that time and place.

More: cloth/leather goods, as they were worn out and discarded. Wooden artifacts too, from carts, wagons and what-not. Broken wheels, etc. Metal tools that were too worn to use would also be discarded...

There is all sorts of detritus that such a large population would leave behind for future archeologists to discover, proving they were actually there--

---- what do we have? Nothing,

Why do you believe no such items have been found? I can't imagine too much of anything surviving 3,500 years. At Deuteronomy 29:5, Jehovah says "While I kept guiding you for 40 years in the wilderness, your garments did not wear out on you and your sandals did not wear out on your feet." I certainly don't believe Israelite children died in such numbers during the wilderness trek. In fact, Jehovah told the rebellious Israelites: "Moreover, your children whom you said would become plunder and your sons who today do not know good or bad, these will enter, and I will give it to them to possess." (Deuteronomy 1:39)

 

[sayak83]

We're back to using common sense here. The name description is taken from what we would infer to be their name for themselves, hence the inference to west semitic Hapiru.


This is similar to how we call Norwegians, Norwegians.

Etymology, like all fields of knowledge, cannot be done by common sense. Just because the words sound alike today to us does not mean anything whatsoever. There is no real known precursor to the word ivrit, which was later translated as Hebrew.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Why do you believe no such items have been found? I can't imagine too much of anything surviving 3,500 years. At Deuteronomy 29:5, Jehovah says "While I kept guiding you for 40 years in the wilderness, your garments did not wear out on you and your sandals did not wear out on your feet." I certainly don't believe Israelite children died in such numbers during the wilderness trek. In fact, Jehovah told the rebellious Israelites: "Moreover, your children whom you said would become plunder and your sons who today do not know good or bad, these will enter, and I will give it to them to possess." (Deuteronomy 1:39)

Sorry? You cannot quote your CLAIM as PROOF. That is not how it works.

There is/was zero evidence supporting 40 years of millions of individuals living in a very tiny area, just North-East of Egypt.

None.

Exodus never happened. Your claim is invalid.

 

[rusra02]

Sorry? You cannot quote your CLAIM as PROOF. That is not how it works.

There is/was zero evidence supporting 40 years of millions of individuals living in a very tiny area, just North-East of Egypt.

None.

Exodus never happened. Your claim is invalid.

To me, the record in the Bible is evidence, written by a reliable eyewitness and historian.

 

[Riders]

To me, the record in the Bible is evidence, written by a reliable eyewitness and historian.

Are you saying the person who wrote the bible saw Exodus?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Which agenda is that? Historical and archeological accuracy?

What are your three favorite books on Syro-Palestinian Archaeology?