What are your thoughts about the Catholic Church?

[leibowde84]

Have you ever worshiped or even prayed alone in a Roman Catholic Church?

How can you judge the body of Christ based on the political history of the Church?

That's like basing thousands of Catholics' worship and relationship with christ on the thousands of years of history the Church committed apart from one's private devotion.

Also, as a Bahai, is the nature of putting down another religion's history part of your faith?

By "Church" the OP was not referring to the Body of Christ. The Bible might describe it that way, but the OP was referring to the Church as an organized institution led by the Vatican.

 

[shunyadragon]

This is why no modern pope can rule by fiat the way medieval popes did. There's around a billion Catholics, keeping them onboard(if not on the same page), when they are a dizzying array of ages and cultures and education levels and needs, is a gargantuan task.
Then there are the anti-Catholics who cannot be ignored. Especially the legalistic ones like @shunyadragon . They are not even Catholics, but in the modern world they can talk all they want.
Tom

I definitely do not consider myself 'legalistic' as far as the Roman Church is concerned. I describe the reality of Roman Church as it is taught in the Catechism without the rose colored glasses that some want naively feel comfortable with the church in a naive way. Actually, every Pope in recent history presents the same doctrines and dogmas of the Roman Church, which in turn upset and disappoint the more liberal naive believers, which simply present the facts of the beliefs that will not change. Pope Francis more subtly worded his homelies, but nothing changes, and the vain hopes of many for change and reform are disappointed, because it is very very unlikely that the beliefs of the Roman Church change over time.

I always like the example of illusive hopes for ecumenism of the 20th century leading up to Vatican II. Some saw hope of ecumenism in a selective reading of the document, but of course were disappointed when they read the following from:

DECREE ON ECUMENISM​

UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO:​

24. Now that we have briefly set out the conditions for ecumenical action and the principles by which it is to be directed, we look with confidence to the future. This Sacred Council exhorts the faithful to refrain from superficiality and imprudent zeal, which can hinder real progress toward unity. Their ecumenical action must be fully and sincerely Catholic, that is to say, faithful to the truth which we have received from the apostles and Fathers of the Church, in harmony with the faith which the Catholic Church has always professed, and at the same time directed toward that fullness to which Our Lord wills His Body to grow in the course of time.

It is the urgent wish of this Holy Council that the measures undertaken by the sons of the Catholic Church should develop in conjunction with those of our separated brethren so that no obstacle be put in the ways of divine Providence and no preconceived judgments impair the future inspirations of the Holy Spirit. The Council moreover professes its awareness that human powers and capacities cannot achieve this holy objective - the reconciling of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ. It is because of this that the Council rests all its hope on the prayer of Christ for the Church, on our Father's love for us, and on the power of the Holy Spirit." And hope does not disappoint, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us".

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thank you. To Catholics, though, they are one and the same. So its a double edge sword.

By "Church" the OP was not referring to the Body of Christ. The Bible might describe it that way, but the OP was referring to the Church as an organized institution led by the Vatican.

 

[shunyadragon]

By "Church" the OP was not referring to the Body of Christ. The Bible might describe it that way, but the OP was referring to the Church as an organized institution led by the Vatican.

The reality remains that the thread refers to the Roman Church and the Vatican, which believes the the Church and the body of Christ are the same.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I definitely do not consider myself 'legalistic' as far as the Roman Church is concerned. I describe the reality of Roman Church as it is taught in the Catechism without the rose colored glasses that some want naively feel comfortable with the church in a naive way. Actually, every Pope in recent history presents the same doctrines and dogmas of the Roman Church, which in turn upset and disappoint the more liberal naive believers, which simply present the facts of the beliefs that will not change. Pope Francis more subtly worded his homelies, but nothing changes, and the vain hopes of many for change and reform are disappointed, because it is very very unlikely that the beliefs of the Roman Church change over time.

I always like the example of illusive hopes for ecumenism of the 20th century leading up to Vatican II. Some saw hope of ecumenism in a selective reading of the document, but of course were disappointed when they read the following from:

DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO:​

24. Now that we have briefly set out the conditions for ecumenical action and the principles by which it is to be directed, we look with confidence to the future. This Sacred Council exhorts the faithful to refrain from superficiality and imprudent zeal, which can hinder real progress toward unity. Their ecumenical action must be fully and sincerely Catholic, that is to say, faithful to the truth which we have received from the apostles and Fathers of the Church, in harmony with the faith which the Catholic Church has always professed, and at the same time directed toward that fullness to which Our Lord wills His Body to grow in the course of time.

It is the urgent wish of this Holy Council that the measures undertaken by the sons of the Catholic Church should develop in conjunction with those of our separated brethren so that no obstacle be put in the ways of divine Providence and no preconceived judgments impair the future inspirations of the Holy Spirit. The Council moreover professes its awareness that human powers and capacities cannot achieve this holy objective - the reconciling of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ. It is because of this that the Council rests all its hope on the prayer of Christ for the Church, on our Father's love for us, and on the power of the Holy Spirit." And hope does not disappoint, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us".

There dogma:

Paid my rent
Gave me food
Gave me clothes
Gave me spiritual development
Gave me a community

Gave me what no other religion or organization, if you like, has given me.

Their traditions help me and thousands of catholics nurture in christ.

The Church you are talking about is not separate from the body of christ. You are accusing an organization of people not robots.

Maybe change your tone. I havent heard bahai here be forceful in their points. What is your background?

 

[metis]

I always like the example of illusive hopes for ecumenism of the 20th century leading up to Vatican II.

You've got to be kidding? No changes with the RCC involving ecumenism, aye?

 

[metis]

There dogma:

Paid my rent
Gave me food
Gave me clothes
Gave me spiritual development
Gave me a community

Gave me what no other religion or organization, if you like, has given me.

Their traditions help me and thousands of catholics nurture in christ.

The Church you are talking about is not separate from the body of christ. You are accusing an organization of people not robots.

Maybe change your tone. I havent heard bahai here be forceful in their points. What is your background?

Exactly, plus more.

What @shunyadragon is doing is morally despicable, imo. Unlike you, who is respectful towards other faiths that you may have disagreements with, he demeaning attacks on Catholicism and those who profess that profession or try to justify at least some of its teachings is simply and exhibition of moral bankruptcy. Pathetic-- truly pathetic-- and I'm done with him.

 

[columbus]

I havent heard bahai here be forceful in their points. What is your background?

Lapsed Catholic.
Explains a good deal of his attitude to me.
Tom

 

[Katzpur]

You're talking about the only church with a seat at the UN.

Are you serious?

 

[columbus]

Are you serious?

Yes.
The Vatican doesn't have voting status, I believe the term is "observer status". But it gives the church abilities far beyond what any other religious denominations have.
If things are still the way they used to be. It might have changed some.
Tom

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Lapsed Catholic.
Explains a good deal of his attitude to me.
Tom

Now wonder.

 

[Katzpur]

Wow, I just looked at the poll results so far. I've got to admit I'm surprised. I had no idea so many people have such negative feelings about Catholicism. I didn't vote myself, as none of the choices applied, but I would have voted had their been an option that said something like, "I'm basically okay with the Church. Like all churches, it's got both good and bad aspects."

 

[shunyadragon]

Carlita said: ↑

I havent heard bahai here be forceful in their points. What is your background?

Are you naive to think that everybody is going to respond the same like a herd of robots.

 

[shunyadragon]

Wow, I just looked at the poll results so far. I've got to admit I'm surprised. I had no idea so many people have such negative feelings about Catholicism. I didn't vote myself, as none of the choices applied, but I would have voted had their been an option that said something like, "I'm basically okay with the Church. Like all churches, it's got both good and bad aspects."

I expressed the problem of the lack of acceptable options, and I believe the original way the questions were worded presented front-loaded

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are you serious?

Yes:

Holy See and the United Nations - Wikipedia

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes.
The Vatican doesn't have voting status, I believe the term is "observer status". But it gives the church abilities far beyond what any other religious denominations have.
If things are still the way they used to be. It might have changed some.
Tom

Actually, the Baha'i Faith has the same status in the UN, and I believe the Baha'i Faith was the first to have 'consulting status' as of 1948.

"Active in various global fora, the Baha’i International Community maintains United Nations offices in New York and Geneva, as well as regional offices in Addis Ababa, Brussels, and Jakarta. The Baha’i International Community registered with the UN as an NGO in 1948 and currently has consultative status with the United Nations Economic and Social council (ECOSOC) and the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF), as well as accreditation with the United Nations Environmental Program (UNEP) and the United Nations Department of Public Information (DPI). The Baha’i International Community collaborates with the UN and its specialized agencies, as well as member states, inter- and non-governmental organizations, academia, and practitioners."
Read more at About us

 

[columbus]

Wow, I just looked at the poll results so far. I've got to admit I'm surprised. I had no idea so many people have such negative feelings about Catholicism. I didn't vote myself, as none of the choices applied, but I would have voted had their been an option that said something like, "I'm basically okay with the Church. Like all churches, it's got both good and bad aspects."

Likewise.
I have very strong opinions about the Mother Church. Smushing them together into "like" or "it's OK" just doesn't work for me.
Maybe I will vote "like" just to even the results out a bit.
Tom

 

[shunyadragon]

Actually, the Baha'i Faith has the same status in the UN, and I believe the Baha'i Faith was the first to have 'consulting status' as of 1948.

"Active in various global fora, the Baha’i International Community maintains United Nations offices in New York and Geneva, as well as regional offices in Addis Ababa, Brussels, and Jakarta. The Baha’i International Community registered with the UN as an NGO in 1948 and currently has consultative status with the United Nations Economic and Social council (ECOSOC) and the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF), as well as accreditation with the United Nations Environmental Program (UNEP) and the United Nations Department of Public Information (DPI). The Baha’i International Community collaborates with the UN and its specialized agencies, as well as member states, inter- and non-governmental organizations, academia, and practitioners."
Read more at About us

The Baha'is were also involved at the very beginning of the formative period of the UN.

 

[columbus]

Read more at About us

If I didn't already know about Bahai before I met you I would have drawn some unpleasant conclusions about the Faith. I certainly wouldn't care to learn any more about it.
Tom

 

[shunyadragon]

If I didn't already know about Bahai before I met you I would have drawn some unpleasant conclusions about the Faith. I certainly wouldn't care to learn any more about it.
Tom

Do you actually judge a belief system by what you object to concerning the views expressed by fallible individuals. How naive, arrogant and ridiculous can you get.

I have expressed my views up front honestly, sincerely and with references. No one has posted anything that have refuted my references, because they are from Church documents. Arguing from popularity of the believers who do not agree with the Catechism and the teachings of the Church is a fallacy. The fallacy of arguing from popularity.

Your responses have become emotional rants, and personal. I have not attacked anyone. I simply expressed my views concerning the Roman Church. Are you going as far as taking a disagreement as a personal attack?