If Jesus is God why doesn't the Bible say so?

[URAVIP2ME]

It's illogical, no question. Once equality is proven impossible like the Gospels do, the doctrine of the Catholic Trinity is at least as polytheist as Hinduism.
Unless I am mistaken, Brahma is the "Most High" of the Trinity and Hindu Pantheon, save Parabrahm, the En Sof/Zurvan of Hinduism. Not a God but a concept before God was God, of force, there are different views.
If I am mistaken the Christian Trinity is more polytheistic, either way if there are 3 Gods, calling them one is redundant, they are still 3.
I think Arrius was a Monotheist trying to convince men of little logic that the Trinity was ridiculous but the Catholic Church was pressured and influenced by powerful Alexandria and the Egyptian tradition of Trinities, being so long a part of Egyptian religion.
That is just a theory though. Making Jesus (p) a God was a historical blunder that is too engrained in tradition.
Tradition replacing the Scripture was Jesus (p) biggest issue too!

Engrained is a good descriptive word. So, deeply engraved ( embedded ) in people's minds to me to the point that it is now very hard to erase such false teachings from people's minds and hearts. Rome stole the ' concepts of Christ ' twisting and changing them until faith became fraud.

Even before Rome, when un-faithful Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted their theories and philosophies and began to present them as also being Scripture. That is why we see such a fusion or mixing ( religious syncretism ) of biblical with non-biblical being taught as Scripture when Not really found in Scripture. Not what the Bible really teaches.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Often it is taken for granted that Jesus (p) is God. 2,000 years of tradition has taken precedent over the actual words of the Bible and the Word himself.

I am going to post the verses used to "prove" Jesus (p) is God, show how they do the exact opposite and thus prove with the evidence used pro Jesus being God it actually proves the opposite. It is not at all difficult.

Then I will post the verses that directly contradict the theory that Jesus is equal to God, and if he is not equal he is not God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word(Logos), and the Word was with God (Tontheos) and the Word was God (theos, which means Divine or A god, NOT God).

This is obviously not saying that Jesus is God in the original Koine Greek, it is saying that God's Word is Divine, borrowing from Platonic/Philonic philosophy (Logos) for a Hellenistic audience.

14: And the Word became flesh and lived amongst us.

Jesus was created BY the Word of God (virgin birth), as such he is CALLED the Word, even in Islam. Also because he was GIVEN authority to speak FOR God and clarify the Torah, which had been corrupted by tradition.

It is interesting that John is the only book that is used of all Gospels as an offer of proof, I have seen people TRY using the other 3 but it is not worthy of refutation being so ridiculous. Feel free to offer evidence to the contrary.

John 8:58

" Truly I tell you, before Abraham was, I am."

Because God says to Moses "I am that I am" it is ASSUMED Jesus means to say "I AM I am" but he doesn't say that AT ALL.

Punctuation was non existent, it could just as easily be "Before Abraham, was I am (God)."

But I will give the benefit of the doubt, besides, Muslims actually do believe in the preexistence of Jesus.

Which is ALL he was saying, before Abraham was, I am(prexistent, immortal, not God though).

John 10:30

"I and my Father are one."

Out of context I can see why people misinterpret this verse. Let's see what Jesus says right after this when he is about to be stoned:

"I have shown you many good works FROM THE FATHER."

His Father, our Father, the Father. Clearly Jesus is not saying he himself is God THE FATHER, and that his good works are FROM the Father and not of his doing alone.

Which is why he says, 10:29 "What my Father has GIVEN me is greater than all else, and no one (not even Jesus) can snatch it out of the Father's hand. THE Father and I are one."

A metaphor for a united will. God's will is Jesus will, not visa versa.

John 21:25 Judah Thomas exclaims excitedly:

"My lord and my God!"

Perhaps the most dishonest of "proofs" used to try supporting the Nicene Creed, Thomas, here an Apostle is in doubt that Jesus has ressurected until he touches him, odd scene because Mary Magdalene was not allowed to touch him because he had "not yet Ascended."

Nevertheless, Thomas didn't call Jesus "My lord AND my God." Despite Lord being commonly translated from YHVH, YHVH doesn't mean Lord and humans are called lord in the Bible all the time, by Hebrews. God is YHVH-Elohim or El Shaddai, El Elyon, etc.

Maybe he is calling Jesus his lord, but it is far from obvious or clear. He definitely is not calling him Elohim/God though, as he knows he is not God, Jesus talks ABOUT God but never says he IS God and neither does Thomas. "My God!" is an understandable response to seeing a dead man (reportedly, only Peter actually saw the crucifixion, little known fact that it is he denies Jesus because he is "stalking" the Messiah and while doing so is asked repeatedly if he is one of his disciples).

Now the proof that Jesus is not God or equal.

Mt. 24:36
"But about that day and hour no one knows, not angels in Heaven, nor the son, but ONLY the Father."

This destroys the theory of equality between God and Jesus

Mt. 26:39 "My Father, if possible, let this cup pass from me....Yet not what I want but what you want."

Jesus is asking if it is possible and His will, let him out of this situation he doesn't want to be in, but will nevertheless go through with it if GOD wills it so. It is clear who is the Power, God.

Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God ALONE."

That is an outright denial that Jesus is God in the flesh. If God alone, not Jesus the Messiah, is good and Jesus rebuked someone who called him good on that account, denying being good even, he can't possibly be God. Because God IS good, ALONE, not Jesus (who is obviously good, but he is making a point, specifically, save the praises for the One Who deserves them, God).

I feel I have proven my point and will leave you with the knowledge that John 5:19,29, 30; 14:28 & 17:21-23 also prove it if you want to look them up. I just don't want this to be too long.

Peace be upon Jesus and the 12 Apostles.

Peace be with you all/Salaam.

From which we learn:

• You are painfully verbose.
• You have no idea what the word 'prove' means.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God. Read that again. The Word was God. Later the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The Word was actually Jesus in another ( spiritual ) form before He was born in a human body. Notice again, the Word was God. So when the Word was born as Jesus He was still God. The Word was with God and the Word was God so there are either two Gods or one God made up of more than one part. That is again where most people use the word God to mean the Father. But God is the Father and Word, which became Jesus. Nothing else makes sense. People have had other explanations pounded into theor heads to the point that they cannot see this simple and clear reasoning.

 

[Kenny]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word(Logos), and the Word was with God (Tontheos) and the Word was God (theos, which means Divine or A god, NOT God).

Strong's Concordance and Definitions

Theos 3:65,322
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
theh'-os Noun Masculine
Definition

1. a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2. the Godhead, trinity
   1. God the Father, the first person in the trinity
   2. Christ, the second person of the trinity
   3. Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3. spoken of the only and true God
   1. refers to the things of God
   2. his counsels, interests, things due to him
4. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
   1. God's representative or viceregent
      1. of magistrates and judges
   
   The word God, in John 1:1 - is the same in both words -- not tontheos but simply Theos.
   
   So I don't know where you get your information from.
   

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Jesus also said, "the Father and I are one."

 

[SethZaddik]

Strong's Concordance and Definitions

Theos 3:65,322
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
theh'-os Noun Masculine
Definition

1. a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2. the Godhead, trinity
   1. God the Father, the first person in the trinity
   2. Christ, the second person of the trinity
   3. Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3. spoken of the only and true God
   1. refers to the things of God
   2. his counsels, interests, things due to him
4. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
   1. God's representative or viceregent
      1. of magistrates and judges
   
   The word God, in John 1:1 - is the same in both words -- not tontheos but simply Theos.
   
   So I don't know where you get your information from.

My information is accurate.

Theos is NOT a synonym for Tontheos AT ALL.

Like your concordance says, theos means A god or Divine.

Tontheos means THE God, as in God.

It is the same exact difference between the generic Ilah and proper Allah in Arabic, Allah also means (the) God, Illah means a god. Al+Illah=Allah, The God or God. Illah would translate god.

Illah is the same as theos, Allah as Tontheos.

So I don't know why you thought proving my point, that theos means a god or Divine, refuted me.

Isn't Strong's produced by Christians?

What do you expect, admission that theos is not the same as Tontheos?

Non apologetics?

Get real.

My sources of information are reliable, you should worry about the fact that you know theos doesn't refer to Tontheos and is not a synonym or equal, yet don't realize what that means.

 

[SethZaddik]

My

 

[SethZaddik]

From which we learn:

• You are painfully verbose.
• You have no idea what the word 'prove' means.

How scholarly of you.

 

[SethZaddik]

Jesus also said, "the Father and I are one."

Yes, I covered this in the OP and explained exactly what it means, and it doesn't mean Jesus (p) is God.

It is, again, a metaphorical expression that God's will is what drives Jesus (p), but not his will, God's will.

Jesus will is not God's though, God's will is Jesus because that is what God wants and Jesus is obedient to his God.

See the OP for further explanation.

 

[RESOLUTION]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word(Logos), and the Word was with God (Tontheos) and the Word was God (theos, which means Divine or A god, NOT God).

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Gods word spoke everything into being.
In the same chapter we see the Holy Spirit moving upon the face of the deep.
Everything God said happened.




14: And the Word became flesh and lived amongst us.

A promised Messiah received and foretold by the Prophets by the power of Gods Spirit in man.
God spoke those words about Christ through his Prophets and so the WORD did become flesh. The Messiah was now here.

Jesus was created BY the Word of God (virgin birth), as such he is CALLED the Word, even in Islam. Also because he was GIVEN authority to speak FOR God and clarify the Torah, which had been corrupted by tradition.

WRONG! Psalm 12:
6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


God is not dependent on his words. There is nothing impossible for God and preserving his words are childs play for him and near impossible for us.
Except that the power of Gods Holy Spirit has always been with man to lead him in both the teachings of the Prophets and the Laws of God.
The Torah cannot change because they have learned it off by heart since it was given.
God made it very clear with Moses in Deuteronomy 18:
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

God is not made up he isn't far away or incapable of doing what he promises.
As God has clearly warned anyone who does not hearken to the words of Christ will be held accountable.

So a Prophet raised up from the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Christ was the Son of God and his words like the Prophets were Spirit and they were life.
So God never changed his mind and never chose anyone outside the descendants of Isaac and Jacob.
I have just proved you have got it wrong when it comes to:-

Also because he was GIVEN authority to speak FOR God and clarify the Torah, which had been corrupted by tradition.

It is interesting that John is the only book that is used of all Gospels as an offer of proof, I have seen people TRY using the other 3 but it is not worthy of refutation being so ridiculous. Feel free to offer evidence to the contrary.

John 8:58

" Truly I tell you, before Abraham was, I am."

Because God says to Moses "I am that I am" it is ASSUMED Jesus means to say "I AM I am" but he doesn't say that AT ALL.

Punctuation was non existent, it could just as easily be "Before Abraham, was I am (God)."

Clutching at straws there. According to Peter Acts 10.38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

The disciples never preached that Jesus was God. They preached him to be the Messiah and God with him and he was filled with power and the Holy Ghost.

Jesus obeyed God and he called him Father and he said the two commandments which sum up the whole law and teachings of the Prophets is:- Love God with all your heart and love your neighbour as yourself. Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

So Jesus is the Son of God.

But I will give the benefit of the doubt, besides, Muslims actually do believe in the preexistence of Jesus.

Which is ALL he was saying, before Abraham was, I am(prexistent, immortal, not God though).

There is a two-fold double bluff... You see if you believe Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God you are saved by his death and resurrection.
What people do is wrongly assume that you must believe he is God to be saved. Where as the bible tells us that we are to believe what he has taught.
In his temptation he proved that we are only to serve God and that if he had been God he could not have been tested.
He used the WORDS of God through the Prophets to defeat Satan showing the authority of Gods words.
How could God be asked to worship Satan? Like Satan could ask God to worship him?
We know Jesus was the Son of God the Messiah and he worshipped the true God of heaven alone.

The Roman Catholics kept the Jews from belief by such an untruth and the people today say anyone who does not believe Jesus is God is not saved.
Both untrue and both with consequences, But the disciples knew this teaching creeping in and warns everyone.

King James Bible
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Jesus came in the flesh but God was with him and anointed him with the Holy Spirit and Power.

As God tells the end from the beginning. As our lives and days allotted before they begin. Psalm 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.


King James Bible
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God already has seen the end. He is omnipresent in all times and in all places. Hence Jesus did not know the hour or day of his return only God the Father the one God of heaven and earth.

John 10:30

"I and my Father are one."

We are all made one in Gods Holy Spirit. Jesus and God were one and he asked God to make us one as they were one.
The body of Christ the Church is made one by the power and Presence of Gods Spirit in each believer. So John baptised with water and Christ with the Holy Spirit.
If you do not have the Spirit you do not belong to God or Christ.

Perhaps the most dishonest of "proofs" used to try supporting the Nicene Creed, Thomas, here an Apostle is in doubt that Jesus has ressurected until he touches him, odd scene because Mary Magdalene was not allowed to touch him because he had "not yet Ascended."

Nevertheless, Thomas didn't call Jesus "My lord AND my God." Despite Lord being commonly translated from YHVH, YHVH doesn't mean Lord and humans are called lord in the Bible all the time, by Hebrews. God is YHVH-Elohim or El Shaddai, El Elyon, etc.

Maybe he is calling Jesus his lord, but it is far from obvious or clear. He definitely is not calling him Elohim/God though, as he knows he is not God, Jesus talks ABOUT God but never says he IS God and neither does Thomas. "My God!" is an understandable response to seeing a dead man (reportedly, only Peter actually saw the crucifixion, little known fact that it is he denies Jesus because he is "stalking" the Messiah and while doing so is asked repeatedly if he is one of his disciples).

Now the proof that Jesus is not God or equal.

The truth is easier... Deuteronomy 18 as earlier and also Act 10 again. Thomas knew that God himself would put the words in the mouth of his Messiah.
So he knew by his words that (a) Jesus was the Messiah (b) God there with him because he said he would speak through him personally as he did with Moses.
So the statement is correct in that he says "My Lord" note lower casing it would be LORD if referring to God and " My God" he knew God there speaking through him.
My Lord and My God.

Mt. 24:36
"But about that day and hour no one knows, not angels in Heaven, nor the son, but ONLY the Father."

This destroys the theory of equality between God and Jesus

Mt. 26:39 "My Father, if possible, let this cup pass from me....Yet not what I want but what you want."

Jesus is asking if it is possible and His will, let him out of this situation he doesn't want to be in, but will nevertheless go through with it if GOD wills it so. It is clear who is the Power, God.

Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God ALONE."

That is an outright denial that Jesus is God in the flesh. If God alone, not Jesus the Messiah, is good and Jesus rebuked someone who called him good on that account, denying being good even, he can't possibly be God. Because God IS good, ALONE, not Jesus (who is obviously good, but he is making a point, specifically, save the praises for the One Who deserves them, God).

I feel I have proven my point and will leave you with the knowledge that John 5:19,29, 30; 14:28 & 17:21-23 also prove it if you want to look them up. I just don't want this to be too long.

Peace be upon Jesus and the 12 Apostles.

Peace be with you all/Salaam.

As you can see the use of the word 'good' is being wrongly perceived,

God is good by his divine nature but mans was fallen so was not predominently good.
Christ had the divine nature of God, being without sin, just as all in heaven he was good.
In questioning the man he was really testing to see what he meant by 'good teacher'.
Did he teach well? Was what he taught good? Why call me good when only God is good? It is true God is good by nature he is not bad because he is Just, righteous and without sin.
He knows everything but Jesus didn't.

So Jesus is the Son of God but nevertheless make no mistake if you do not obey his words then you do not follow the true God.

 

[SethZaddik]

Strong's Concordance and Definitions

Theos 3:65,322
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
theh'-os Noun Masculine
Definition

1. a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2. the Godhead, trinity
   1. God the Father, the first person in the trinity
   2. Christ, the second person of the trinity
   3. Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3. spoken of the only and true God
   1. refers to the things of God
   2. his counsels, interests, things due to him
4. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
   1. God's representative or viceregent
      1. of magistrates and judges
   
   The word God, in John 1:1 - is the same in both words -- not tontheos but simply Theos.
   
   So I don't know where you get your information from.

Let me simplify it for you.

Ton theon (eta: my bad on the incorrect spelling) applies to God in the oldest Greek MSS., theos to the Word.

Meaning:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was divine(or A god, divine makes more sense).

Is a proper, honest translation that oddly (not saying they are good or bad) the Jehovah's witnesses have been the only ones to properly address in translation.

Ridiculed though they might be by other Christians they did at least one thing right and honestly.

BTW, Christian scholars are more than well aware of the dishonesty regarding John 1; usually they pass the buck and say, "I didn't do it."

But they teach it as true as is and seek not to clarify.

God forbid they teach the truth and stop pretending the Bible actually corroborates the Trinity or Nicene Creed, going against the grain (truth telling) is harder than using sophistry (which they are quick to condemn others as using) to MAKE Jesus say he is God by misinterpretation and out of context quoting of passages that do not say what they claim they say.

 

[SethZaddik]

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Gods word spoke everything into being.
In the same chapter we see the Holy Spirit moving upon the face of the deep.
Everything God said happened.




14: And the Word became flesh and lived amongst us.

A promised Messiah received and foretold by the Prophets by the power of Gods Spirit in man.
God spoke those words about Christ through his Prophets and so the WORD did become flesh. The Messiah was now here.



WRONG! Psalm 12:
6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


God is not dependent on his words. There is nothing impossible for God and preserving his words are childs play for him and near impossible for us.
Except that the power of Gods Holy Spirit has always been with man to lead him in both the teachings of the Prophets and the Laws of God.
The Torah cannot change because they have learned it off by heart since it was given.
God made it very clear with Moses in Deuteronomy 18:
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

God is not made up he isn't far away or incapable of doing what he promises.
As God has clearly warned anyone who does not hearken to the words of Christ will be held accountable.

So a Prophet raised up from the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Christ was the Son of God and his words like the Prophets were Spirit and they were life.
So God never changed his mind and never chose anyone outside the descendants of Isaac and Jacob.
I have just proved you have got it wrong when it comes to:-


Clutching at straws there. According to Peter Acts 10.38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

The disciples never preached that Jesus was God. They preached him to be the Messiah and God with him and he was filled with power and the Holy Ghost.

Jesus obeyed God and he called him Father and he said the two commandments which sum up the whole law and teachings of the Prophets is:- Love God with all your heart and love your neighbour as yourself. Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

So Jesus is the Son of God.


There is a two-fold double bluff... You see if you believe Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God you are saved by his death and resurrection.
What people do is wrongly assume that you must believe he is God to be saved. Where as the bible tells us that we are to believe what he has taught.
In his temptation he proved that we are only to serve God and that if he had been God he could not have been tested.
He used the WORDS of God through the Prophets to defeat Satan showing the authority of Gods words.
How could God be asked to worship Satan? Like Satan could ask God to worship him?
We know Jesus was the Son of God the Messiah and he worshipped the true God of heaven alone.

The Roman Catholics kept the Jews from belief by such an untruth and the people today say anyone who does not believe Jesus is God is not saved.
Both untrue and both with consequences, But the disciples knew this teaching creeping in and warns everyone.

King James Bible
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Jesus came in the flesh but God was with him and anointed him with the Holy Spirit and Power.

As God tells the end from the beginning. As our lives and days allotted before they begin. Psalm 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.


King James Bible
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God already has seen the end. He is omnipresent in all times and in all places. Hence Jesus did not know the hour or day of his return only God the Father the one God of heaven and earth.



We are all made one in Gods Holy Spirit. Jesus and God were one and he asked God to make us one as they were one.
The body of Christ the Church is made one by the power and Presence of Gods Spirit in each believer. So John baptised with water and Christ with the Holy Spirit.
If you do not have the Spirit you do not belong to God or Christ.






The truth is easier... Deuteronomy 18 as earlier and also Act 10 again. Thomas knew that God himself would put the words in the mouth of his Messiah.
So he knew by his words that (a) Jesus was the Messiah (b) God there with him because he said he would speak through him personally as he did with Moses.
So the statement is correct in that he says "My Lord" note lower casing it would be LORD if referring to God and " My God" he knew God there speaking through him.
My Lord and My God.



As you can see the use of the word 'good' is being wrongly perceived,

God is good by his divine nature but mans was fallen so was not predominently good.
Christ had the divine nature of God, being without sin, just as all in heaven he was good.
In questioning the man he was really testing to see what he meant by 'good teacher'.
Did he teach well? Was what he taught good? Why call me good when only God is good? It is true God is good by nature he is not bad because he is Just, righteous and without sin.
He knows everything but Jesus didn't.

So Jesus is the Son of God but nevertheless make no mistake if you do not obey his words then you do not follow the true God.

You are not even sure if the Gospels contain the words of Jesus (p), nobody is.

I follow the Qur'an, not the Bible, which is clear that other religions have the same Judgement Day and Heaven (if they are judged worthy by their Righteous works) and that Heaven is not dependent upon the words of anyone but God through the Prophets (pbut).

As Jesus p did with Torah, Mohammed (s) did with the so called New Covenant, clarified it.

Nevertheless I am not worried about your opinion on theology, my concern here is that Jesus is not God.

Like Jesus (p) makes perfectly clear in the Gospels, if they actually are his words.

 

[SethZaddik]

This can be found from any source, including Wikipedia, Stack Exchange, etc (although opinions vary among Christians regarding its significance which is no surprise)that transliterates the original Koine Greek into English characters.


En arch en ho logos kai ho logos en pros TON THEON kai THEOS en ho logos.

Ton theon is the god.

Theos is divine. You could say, A god, too, but not THE God.

Very significant and 100% accurate.

I will acknowledge I said Tontheos when it was Ton theoN. And fix it.

But that was an honest spelling error, no more.

 

[RESOLUTION]

You are not even sure if the Gospels contain the words of Jesus (p), nobody is.

WRONG:-

Jeremiah 31:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

God has promised that in the new covenant all will know him.


God is a faithful God, if he could not keep his promised then all religion is doomed and without the Jews no other religion would be supportable,
Jesus said: " You will know the truth and the truth will set you free." The truth of the Christian Faith like the truth of the Jewish faith relies on the Spirit of Truth not man.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Christ spoke about God as any Jew who really knew God, would have done so. But more importantly God dwells with his people and has always done so,
We are not a lost people with a last cause. God is our Father and he is capable of doing all he has said he would. We can trust God not manmade teachings,

I follow the Qur'an, not the Bible, which is clear that other religions have the same Judgement Day and Heaven (if they are judged worthy by their Righteous works) and that Heaven is not dependent upon the words of anyone but God through the Prophets (pbut).

Show us the righteous works of Abraham....

He did not have any. Abraham believed what God told him about his Son and God counted that towards Abraham as RIGHTEOUSNESS.

King James Bible
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.


The righteousness of a believer is accounted from God and not by good works. Good works are about rewards when this life is over not about righteousness.

As Jesus p did with Torah, Mohammed (s) did with the so called New Covenant, clarified it.

He isn't in the bible is he? Not a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and therefore cannot be from God of the Torah because Jesus was raised up from the Jews.

Nevertheless I am not worried about your opinion on theology, my concern here is that Jesus is not God.

Like Jesus (p) makes perfectly clear in the Gospels, if they actually are his words.

Jesus is not God he is the Son of God and his words were from God. He is also from the line of Isaac and Jacob. Mahomet claimed to be Ishmaels descendant.
But he and his mother had no covenant with God, did they? But Isaac and his Mother Sarah, did.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

People will be upset over this but it must be said. The churches of this world, lead by the great "universal" church have been feeding the people crap for 2000 years. The people have forgotten what real food is and think the crap tastes good. These are the same people who say that from Friday evening to Sunday morning are 3 days and 3 nights because of some so called language quirk. I don't care what language you use, Friday night to Sunday is not 3 days and 3 nights. In Nazi Germany there was so much propaganda that people thought Hitler was more important than God Children would report people who said bad things about Hitler to the police. Even their own parents. That's how strong propaganda can be. Now one plus one can never equal one. Right? Wrong. A man named John Doe has a wife named Jane Doe. Together they are the Doe family. One husband and one wife equals one family. One plus one equals one. There is one Father in Heaven. He has one son, Jesus. Together they are God. One Father and one son equals one God. The Father and I are one. One plus one equals one. It is time to spit out the crap and ignore the church propaganda. There is one Father, one Son and one God.

 

[SethZaddik]

WRONG:-

Jeremiah 31:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

God has promised that in the new covenant all will know him.


God is a faithful God, if he could not keep his promised then all religion is doomed and without the Jews no other religion would be supportable,
Jesus said: " You will know the truth and the truth will set you free." The truth of the Christian Faith like the truth of the Jewish faith relies on the Spirit of Truth not man.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Christ spoke about God as any Jew who really knew God, would have done so. But more importantly God dwells with his people and has always done so,
We are not a lost people with a last cause. God is our Father and he is capable of doing all he has said he would. We can trust God not manmade teachings,




Show us the righteous works of Abraham....

He did not have any. Abraham believed what God told him about his Son and God counted that towards Abraham as RIGHTEOUSNESS.

King James Bible
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.


The righteousness of a believer is accounted from God and not by good works. Good works are about rewards when this life is over not about righteousness.



He isn't in the bible is he? Not a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and therefore cannot be from God of the Torah because Jesus was raised up from the Jews.



Jesus is not God he is the Son of God and his words were from God. He is also from the line of Isaac and Jacob. Mahomet claimed to be Ishmaels descendant.
But he and his mother had no covenant with God, did they? But Isaac and his Mother Sarah, did.

You can rant and say I am wrong about nobody knowing for certain that Jesus (p) actually said everything or even anything attributed to him.

It doesn't change the fact that it is a fact and faith is the only reason to accept it is the true words of the Messiah, not proof.

There is no proof of that. We know only what the Bible says, not if every word is correct and true.

Ranting isn't going to change that fact of life.

 

[SethZaddik]

You can rant and say I am wrong about nobody knowing for certain that Jesus (p) actually said everything or even anything attributed to him.

It doesn't change the fact that it is a fact and faith is the only reason to accept it is the true words of the Messiah, not proof.

There is no proof of that. We know only what the Bible says, not if every word is correct and true.

Ranting isn't going to change that fact of life.

And to add, it is not as if the early Roman Church and its post Nicene successors are known for their honesty.

They wrote the Gospels, which are known to be anonymous by anyone who wants to know, scholars included/especially.

The "Gospel of the Hebrews" so called, has perished and the oldest Aramaic language Christian MS. is Syriac Homilies and Recognitions of Clement of Rome, the oldest dated MS. in the world period but not the oldest MS. of that book, which is as old roughly as Sainaiticus, the oldest existing Bible.

The Syriac is dated to 411/412 C.E. and was suppressed for almost 2 millennia and just translated within the past few years or so, I bought it even though I have the Greek and Latin translations already because it is from an Aramaic dialect like Jesus p and the Apostles pbut spoke and corroborates it's existence in that tongue, is also slightly different.

It has unknown events pertaining to the Jerusalem Church of James and the travels of Peter, his disciple Titus Flavius Clemens, his family and about the 12 Apostles.

It chronicles the debates of Simon Peter with Simon Magus who took over the Nazarenes of JTB from Dositheus, which rings true as they are a Gnostic religion today with priests called "Nazarenes" and always have been according to the Orthodox history too (see Panarion of Epiphanius). Simon Magus definitely could be responsible for that, the Mandaeans of today revere John the Baptist and believe the God of the Bible is malevolent, Jesus a "false Messiah" (Mandaean John book).

There are plenty of things I have a problem believing Jesus p actually said, sources outside the Bible with extra words, teachings, you never know with the Bible.

Masoretes changed "Sons of God" to "Sons of Israel" in Dt. 32, replacing "God" with "Israel" in contradiction to the original LXX "angels of God" and DSS "Sons of God."

Virgin is a mistranslation in LXX Isaiah from "almah", meaning a "young girl" having nothing to do with virginity whatsoever in the original Tanakh.

 

[SethZaddik]

WRONG:-

Jeremiah 31:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

God has promised that in the new covenant all will know him.


God is a faithful God, if he could not keep his promised then all religion is doomed and without the Jews no other religion would be supportable,
Jesus said: " You will know the truth and the truth will set you free." The truth of the Christian Faith like the truth of the Jewish faith relies on the Spirit of Truth not man.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Christ spoke about God as any Jew who really knew God, would have done so. But more importantly God dwells with his people and has always done so,
We are not a lost people with a last cause. God is our Father and he is capable of doing all he has said he would. We can trust God not manmade teachings,




Show us the righteous works of Abraham....

He did not have any. Abraham believed what God told him about his Son and God counted that towards Abraham as RIGHTEOUSNESS.

King James Bible
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.


The righteousness of a believer is accounted from God and not by good works. Good works are about rewards when this life is over not about righteousness.



He isn't in the bible is he? Not a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and therefore cannot be from God of the Torah because Jesus was raised up from the Jews.



Jesus is not God he is the Son of God and his words were from God. He is also from the line of Isaac and Jacob. Mahomet claimed to be Ishmaels descendant.
But he and his mother had no covenant with God, did they? But Isaac and his Mother Sarah, did.

This thread has nothing to do with Islam but Arabs were Ishmaelites in the Bible, Ishmael (p) the Patriarch was given his own region and had 12 sons like Jacob.

So Mohammed (s) was an Ishmaelite, a descendant of Abraham, it is not just an invention. All Arabs are descendants of Shem, Semites, through Abraham, and Semitic. Some Muslims are not Semitic, like myself a European born in America.

Arabs have historically been known as Ishmaelites, Biblically as well. Every Arab has a legitimate right to claim descendancy from Abraham equal to a Semitic (non Ashkenazi or convert descended from Japeth and Gomer, other non Israelite religous Jews) Jewish person like the Sephardic Jews. Greater right than Ashkenazi Jews or non Semitic Christians.

I don't know what you were trying to accomplish but I don't think you accomplished anything.

Jesus as "son of God" was originally, according to the Ebionites and early MSS. of Luke, begotten at Baptism like David was begotten on command and Jesus (p) is no more a son of God than David, another Messiah.

"This day I have begotten you" is in earliest Luke and the surviving quotes from "Gospel of the Hebrews" used by Ebionites and Nazarenes.

It is a quote from the OT of God to David.

"Only begotten" is an outright lie according to the Tanakh.

 

[David1967]

Often it is taken for granted that Jesus (p) is God. 2,000 years of tradition has taken precedent over the actual words of the Bible and the Word himself.

I am going to post the verses used to "prove" Jesus (p) is God, show how they do the exact opposite and thus prove with the evidence used pro Jesus being God it actually proves the opposite. It is not at all difficult.

Then I will post the verses that directly contradict the theory that Jesus is equal to God, and if he is not equal he is not God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word(Logos), and the Word was with God (Tontheos) and the Word was God (theos, which means Divine or A god, NOT God).

This is obviously not saying that Jesus is God in the original Koine Greek, it is saying that God's Word is Divine, borrowing from Platonic/Philonic philosophy (Logos) for a Hellenistic audience.

14: And the Word became flesh and lived amongst us.

Jesus was created BY the Word of God (virgin birth), as such he is CALLED the Word, even in Islam. Also because he was GIVEN authority to speak FOR God and clarify the Torah, which had been corrupted by tradition.

It is interesting that John is the only book that is used of all Gospels as an offer of proof, I have seen people TRY using the other 3 but it is not worthy of refutation being so ridiculous. Feel free to offer evidence to the contrary.

John 8:58

" Truly I tell you, before Abraham was, I am."

Because God says to Moses "I am that I am" it is ASSUMED Jesus means to say "I AM I am" but he doesn't say that AT ALL.

Punctuation was non existent, it could just as easily be "Before Abraham, was I am (God)."

But I will give the benefit of the doubt, besides, Muslims actually do believe in the preexistence of Jesus.

Which is ALL he was saying, before Abraham was, I am(prexistent, immortal, not God though).

John 10:30

"I and my Father are one."

Out of context I can see why people misinterpret this verse. Let's see what Jesus says right after this when he is about to be stoned:

"I have shown you many good works FROM THE FATHER."

His Father, our Father, the Father. Clearly Jesus is not saying he himself is God THE FATHER, and that his good works are FROM the Father and not of his doing alone.

Which is why he says, 10:29 "What my Father has GIVEN me is greater than all else, and no one (not even Jesus) can snatch it out of the Father's hand. THE Father and I are one."

A metaphor for a united will. God's will is Jesus will, not visa versa.

John 21:25 Judah Thomas exclaims excitedly:

"My lord and my God!"

Perhaps the most dishonest of "proofs" used to try supporting the Nicene Creed, Thomas, here an Apostle is in doubt that Jesus has ressurected until he touches him, odd scene because Mary Magdalene was not allowed to touch him because he had "not yet Ascended."

Nevertheless, Thomas didn't call Jesus "My lord AND my God." Despite Lord being commonly translated from YHVH, YHVH doesn't mean Lord and humans are called lord in the Bible all the time, by Hebrews. God is YHVH-Elohim or El Shaddai, El Elyon, etc.

Maybe he is calling Jesus his lord, but it is far from obvious or clear. He definitely is not calling him Elohim/God though, as he knows he is not God, Jesus talks ABOUT God but never says he IS God and neither does Thomas. "My God!" is an understandable response to seeing a dead man (reportedly, only Peter actually saw the crucifixion, little known fact that it is he denies Jesus because he is "stalking" the Messiah and while doing so is asked repeatedly if he is one of his disciples).

Now the proof that Jesus is not God or equal.

Mt. 24:36
"But about that day and hour no one knows, not angels in Heaven, nor the son, but ONLY the Father."

This destroys the theory of equality between God and Jesus

Mt. 26:39 "My Father, if possible, let this cup pass from me....Yet not what I want but what you want."

Jesus is asking if it is possible and His will, let him out of this situation he doesn't want to be in, but will nevertheless go through with it if GOD wills it so. It is clear who is the Power, God.

Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God ALONE."

That is an outright denial that Jesus is God in the flesh. If God alone, not Jesus the Messiah, is good and Jesus rebuked someone who called him good on that account, denying being good even, he can't possibly be God. Because God IS good, ALONE, not Jesus (who is obviously good, but he is making a point, specifically, save the praises for the One Who deserves them, God).

I feel I have proven my point and will leave you with the knowledge that John 5:19,29, 30; 14:28 & 17:21-23 also prove it if you want to look them up. I just don't want this to be too long.

Peace be upon Jesus and the 12 Apostles.

Peace be with you all/Salaam.

Very thoughtful evidence SethZaddik.

 

[SethZaddik]

Very thoughtful evidence SethZaddik.

Thank you. I wanted to address every instance of "proof" offered by Orthodox traditional Christianity, show how they prove the opposite, and then show how Jesus denied equality with God many times and in many ways, some outright denials, others a bit more esoteric.

So I definitely appreciate the compliment, thanks again.