How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

We believe that only what the Founder originally taught is the essence.

The essence of these's religions are embedded in the culture, traditions, and language that shape them. How can you disregard these things for the essence. It's literally impossible to have a correct interpretation of the essence or foundation of these religions without knowing (and being interested in) the culture and traditions and language that shape them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Christians are entitled to believe how they understand. The difference I think here is that Baha'is believe the prophecies in the Bible regarding the return of Christ have been fulfilled and that Christ has already returned, whereas Christians still are waiting for Him to come.

Christ or/and His Return are the true authorities.

I think scripture teaches that he hasn't returned. It talks about christians will go to heaven once they are judged, and before they are judge, some christians believe that christians would be wakened from their sleep and be judged, some say everyone will be judged, scripture says all will be judged for their deeds while christians believe they don't need deeds t worship god.

I'd have to read revelations. Jesus talked about it as well.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Interesting. How do you believe the foundation if you disregard the forms of various religions. Once you disregard the forms of Hindusim, for example, it is no longer Hinduism.

Whatever teaching Baha'u'llah has given to humanity they are free to copy and take for their own as it is for their betterment not to be possessed and dominated by one group of people. No one needs any permission to use any Bahá'í principle or teaching.

It is disrespectful to copy other religions. If I wanted to put Hinduism and Christianity in my teachings, I'd learn more about these faiths and how they believe in cultural appropriation. I don't want to be a colonizer and feel I have a free will to take their teachings and even misinterpret it, have a Hindu correct me, and disregard the correction. A lot of native religions really hate when others take their faith without going to through the process of being a practitioner of it. The attitude in many other traditions comes from christian colonization. So, it's respectful to understand it from their view not mine and not yours or Bahallah.

The whole world is following Baha'u'llah's teachings though not knowing it.

That is your belief and it is false. If you take other people's truth into consideration of truth, then you would appreciate and respect their differences. That, and you would actually listen to a Hindu who tells you that Bahaullah is no where even hinted in being a prophet from Hindu teachings. If you can't accept that people are different with different foundations thereby different truths and follow their own teachings without secretly following your own,

I honestly don't know what to say. Sounds like Christian thought, really.

 

[oldbadger]

How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.

There are famous people in history, famous artists, musicians and scientists but none can compare to the influence of the Educator, Teacher, Messiah or Prophet.

But Who were they? And why were they and still are so influential throughout history? Why did they inspire civilizations? Why have their scriptures become patterns of life followed daily by billions of people for thousands of years?

What gift did they possess to be able to be persecuted, oppressed, tortured, exiled and crucified by the most despotic and powerful leaders of their age with but a handful of followers and yet eventually triumph over adversity and establish Their Cause all over the world?

Statues, Churches, Temples, Pagodas, Mosques and Synagogues are built all over the world to pay tribute to these Great Souls.

Are they from another world? Did they pre exist? Without a special power how could they have accomplished what they did and who is their equal in influence?

And aren't we in dire need of another Great Spiritual Teacher to revive us spiritually?

Hi.....
This kind of question sequence is rhetorical, because maybe you are more keen to send your message than to hear about other ways, methinks....

But read, anyway, the words of Rabbi Lionel Blue, spoken to a Bahai (1972. Salcott, England):-
1. There have been over 9000 prophets sent to us for our benefit. But mankind never heard the most perfect because they were so humble and so at one with God that nobody ever noticed them.

2. Give the world your message, once, and then I ban you (sic) from ever speaking of it again until somebody, anybody, comes to you and says, 'I have been watching you and I am so impressed by you and the way you live. What is your secret?' Then you may tell.... only them!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Interesting

Unity does have a founder and that is each one of us. Are we contributing to a better more peaceful world or are we contributing to misunderstanding and intolerance?

Unity doesn't have a religious founded. I agree (as an artist ) that we are our own founders but that sounds odd. I know I'm in control of my life but even though I'm individualist, I do value (and wish to be more a part of) the culture and community point of view. The life of depending on each other takes the one-person founder (human) out the picture and focus on us working as a group.

We wish to work towards a more peaceful world. We believe this peace is attainable. A significant barrier to peace is religious dogma and rhetoric. Currently we have many adherents of the two main Abrahamic faiths promoting misinformation about the other to arouse ill feeling towards the other. The presumed superiority that adherents of each faith based their beliefs on are false dogmas and beliefs.

I never believed dogma was a barrier. Remember, I practiced Dogma. You're generalizing a whole population that does not make dogma what it is not by killing and so forth. People abuse the dogma; the dogma doesn't abuse the people. People use the knife to kill. The knife isn't responsible for the killing but the person who used it who could of, instead, used it to spread butter on toast and eat it deliciously.

We're not trying to squeeze all the religions into the Baha'i mould. Rather we are fostering an essential spiritual process creating a more unified and peaceful world.

Can't do that unless you get each religious teachings belief correct. Since that's hard to do (as you say), the best thing is to not bring religious together but promote peace within their own faiths and belief. If they follow their dogma as it teaches, then peace among diversity would happen. But take out the dogma, you're taking out the belief just like taking out my art, and saying I have the "foundation" of art but not letting me express it.

You can disagree with the Baha'i perspective on different religions but it has to be acknowledged the Baha'i view is very positive about those religions and the contributions they have made to humanity.

Not denying that. Just how you interpret other people's beliefs to achieve your goal is off. Not because of your point of view but the people you are talking about, their point of view, their disagreements, corrects, etc. I think it would change your perspective on where you put Bahaullah (and the other people ) as a Joe Smoe like one of us. That's what The Buddha taught. Christ taught only brothers and sisters are one in Christ. I can't speak for HIndu and Muslim (but another thing that kinda bothers me is you post Buddhist and Hindu scripture but you'ren not a practitioner of these faiths. I understand christianity since you say you're a christian, but the others, no).

At some point we need to draw a line in the sand and distinguish truth from falsehood, right from wrong.

How do you do that? Some christians believe that jesus is god and others do not. By whose authority can clear up this? If there is a victim and the convicted, who is the judge?

I've been a Baha'i for over 25 years I don't change beliefs at the drop of a hat. Like you I will always have a profound connection to the Christian faith. I have a sense that growing up a Catholic is very different from growing up a Protestant.

I said that if beliefs where not facts, you can (I should have said could ) change your beliefs like a drop of a hat.

Christ said He came to fulfil the law of Moses. Baha'u'llah came to fulfil the teachings of Christ.

Good on the Bahai said. Not good on the Christian side. Need agreement to have peace among diversity. If not, you will always conflict and never reach your goal. Unless you take out bahaullah fulfilling the teachings of christ since that is incorporating christian teachings in your faith. (Finally! I was trying to figure out a good example of cultural appropriation)

You can always include your art work in your posts.

Shucks. How'd you notice.

We are corrected by everyone, not just the Hindus. So you admit that beliefs can be false by suggesting Baha'i beliefs to be false?

If you're saying beliefs can be false, yes, Bahai could be false. Most believers feel their beliefs are true. A lot of them consider them facts, though you separate that.

As to the main question here, that would better be answered by a Hindu who has become a Baha'i.

From a Bahai perspective since Bahaullah fulfilled the teachings of these religions, he probably had something to say about them, right?

You sound like a Christian who no longer believes in the core Christian belief, namely a loving, just, omnipotent, and All-powerful God.

Haha. My immediate environment are christians, work, and local environment are christians. I live, sleep, and breathe "god bless you" almost everyday. Someone is always praying for me. No one asks me about my beliefs. They figure everyone believes in god. That, and if I mention about paganism and my influence with Buddhism, they tilt their head and still try to apply god in the situation to make sense of it as I'm speaking a foreign language to them.

I still believe that the sacraments of christ are real. Christ was a real person just like my grandmother and ancestors and they all have spirits and spirits exist after death. Their religious affiliation has nothing to do with it.

I don't believe in the teachings of christianity. Mainly because I don't believe christ is god and two, I don't agree with human sacrifice.

I'm a Christian who believes in that God, Jesus, and the authority and authenticity of the Bible. I believe Baha'u'llah is the son of man returned in the glory of the Father. Therefore I now call myself a Baha'i.

Nothing wrong with that. I'm still a Catholic who believes the factual nature of the sacraments of Christ, but because of my views, I don't believe in them and as a result, I'm a (how did one member put it) a lapsed catholic.

I worked in psychiatry for seven years before moving into general practice. Some psychological realities are unhealthy, believe me. Heard of cognitive behavioural therapy? Some people need to learn to question their beliefs because they hinder healthy and happy living.

I remember in therapy, my therapist (or psychologist) told me he was treating a gentleman for a disorder that one hears voices. I listened, and he said after years of talking, he learned to live with the voices and went on his everyday life. We think some things are unhealthy but when we manage them and don't care about them, it's no different than my not hearing voices. So, it depends on whether the psychological symptoms are (as he says) causing a danger to oneself, others, or an inability to take care of themselves. I always kept that in mind and that's how I can tell what I have is depression or I'm just upset.

Judge not lest ye be judged!

General accepted belief in many people. Christians feel judging their brothers and sisters in christ is healthy but people outside, they find it harder to. Judging also can be a form of healthy bias. Other times it's just how we are raised and see the world. Clap the: hurting self? hurting others? take care of oneself? If we pass these three tests, judging can be a personal trait and thats it.

Who decides what's right and wrong?

 

[Vinayaka]

The writings combined with the ideas are an evidence of something new. You can find examples in different cultures at different times but the Baha'i faith encapsulates all the relevant ideas for the age we live in. Find another religion that does that.

Lots of religions change with the times. Some that are focused on a book that was written a few centuries ago aren't though, admittedly. My faith has current teachers, lots of them, giving current answers at individual levels. They look at new problems like technology and how to use it wisely TODAY, the increased diversity in communities worldwide and TODAY's challenges with that. I agree that a religion stuck in dogma needs changing, but it's a bit of an overgeneralisation to say Bahai is the only one that isn't. One of the things I have learned in this thread is that Bahai is stuck in dogma, and adherents (not all) often just quote what their founder said.

 

[Vinayaka]

The essence of these's religions are embedded in the culture, traditions, and language that shape them. How can you disregard these things for the essence. It's literally impossible to have a correct interpretation of the essence or foundation of these religions without knowing (and being interested in) the culture and traditions and language that shape them.

In Hinduism, this really summarises the difference between neo-advaita and paths like mine, Saiva Siddhanta. Yes, there is an Ultimate Reality, but how to get there is more important in Siddhanta. So the general analogy is sitting at the top of the mountain (generally by the neo folks as just an intellectual statement) or actually climbing the mountain. So the tendency, rather than looking at teh whole thing, is just to intellectually jump to the end. The reality doesn't work that way.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hi.....
This kind of question sequence is rhetorical, because maybe you are more keen to send your message than to hear about other ways, methinks....

But read, anyway, the words of Rabbi Lionel Blue, spoken to a Bahai (1972. Salcott, England):-
1. There have been over 9000 prophets sent to us for our benefit. But mankind never heard the most perfect because they were so humble and so at one with God that nobody ever noticed them.

2. Give the world your message, once, and then I ban you (sic) from ever speaking of it again until somebody, anybody, comes to you and says, 'I have been watching you and I am so impressed by you and the way you live. What is your secret?' Then you may tell.... only them!

Yes it's deeds that matter.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Interesting. How do you believe the foundation if you disregard the forms of various religions. Once you disregard the forms of Hindusim, for example, it is no longer Hinduism.

It is disrespectful to copy other religions. If I wanted to put Hinduism and Christianity in my teachings, I'd learn more about these faiths and how they believe in cultural appropriation. I don't want to be a colonizer and feel I have a free will to take their teachings and even misinterpret it, have a Hindu correct me, and disregard the correction. A lot of native religions really hate when others take their faith without going to through the process of being a practitioner of it. The attitude in many other traditions comes from christian colonization. So, it's respectful to understand it from their view not mine and not yours or Bahallah.



That is your belief and it is false. If you take other people's truth into consideration of truth, then you would appreciate and respect their differences. That, and you would actually listen to a Hindu who tells you that Bahaullah is no where even hinted in being a prophet from Hindu teachings. If you can't accept that people are different with different foundations thereby different truths and follow their own teachings without secretly following your own,

I honestly don't know what to say. Sounds like Christian thought, really.

It all comes down to freedom of belief and we all need to respect that freedom.

 

[Vinayaka]

It all comes down to freedom of belief and we all need to respect that freedom.

A good start would be to stop proselytising. My wife was at a garage sale last summer, browsing through the stuff. Another browser came along, and on the way in, offered her a free pamphlet. It was a quick summary of Bahai beliefs. She threw it out. People just want to get on with their lives, not be bothered with stuff like this.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think scripture teaches that he hasn't returned. It talks about christians will go to heaven once they are judged, and before they are judge, some christians believe that christians would be wakened from their sleep and be judged, some say everyone will be judged, scripture says all will be judged for their deeds while christians believe they don't need deeds t worship god.

I'd have to read revelations. Jesus talked about it as well.

It says in a Daniel and Revelation that the prophecies of the Book are sealed until the time of the end. Revelation goes further in chapter 5 when it says no man in heaven or on earth could be found worthy to unseal the Book. So no one amongst religious people or scientists or any Christian can know the meanings so claiming they know the meaning goes against what the Bible states 'that no man knows'.

In Revelation the only One found worthy to unseal the Books was the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, the coming Messiah.

One of the proofs He is the Messiah is He will unlock the meanings.

Lion of the tribe of Judah, Root of David, refers to a descendant of David. Christ found existence through the Holy Spirit, He was born of a virgin so He has no physical ancestry. That's why He called Himself the Son of God.

Also He said in Revelation He would come with a 'New Name' so the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David would have to be a descendent of David.

Baha'u'llah was descended from Jesse, the father of David as well as two wives of Abraham, Katurah and Sarah. He could not have fixed His ancestry which gives Him the right to claim to be the Messiah.

The Book of Certitude was the Book which 'unsealed the mystical meanings' of all scriptures.

 

[loverofhumanity]

A good start would be to stop proselytising. My wife was at a garage sale last summer, browsing through the stuff. Another browser came along, and on the way in, offered her a free pamphlet. It was a quick summary of Bahai beliefs. She threw it out. People just want to get on with their lives, not be bothered with stuff like this.

I'm just answering questions put to me.

People ask things and I answer. I'm the one being approached not the one approaching.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The essence of these's religions are embedded in the culture, traditions, and language that shape them. How can you disregard these things for the essence. It's literally impossible to have a correct interpretation of the essence or foundation of these religions without knowing (and being interested in) the culture and traditions and language that shape them.

We each understand things differently so maybe it's best just to go our own way but I love talking to you.

What about this then. We all borrow knowledge, culture, tradition from someone else as we come into this world without any knowledge. So we do follow what our parents and grandparents and ancestors have told us. Our ancestors probably never believed in any of today's religions so how have we changed and who's belief have we taken?

So what is our true ancestry? Haven't we all borrowed knowledge as it has been handed down throughout the ages?

 

[RESOLUTION]

If the Jews got it wrong so can others. It wouldn't be the first time.

The Jews rejected His first Coming because He did not literally fulfil their expectations. He did not come as a King seated on the throne of David but as a spiritual King.

There you have the error. You see the Jews did not know what to expect.
Yes! they knew he would be a king of the line of David, but how could he be an eternal king in a human fallen world?
The Jews show that different beliefs were acceptable compare Pharisee and Sadducee you will find that it was acceptable because the Messiah was to bring the TRUTH of all the teachings of Moses, the Law and the Prophets.

Jews are not coming to Jesus faster than any other time in history.

Likewise He said that He would come like a thief in the night so we could be asleep when He comes. That would mean that the verses you quoted are not literal and have a symbolical,meaning. Because not all eyes will see the thief and Christ said that.[./QUOTE]

The parable about the virgins and their lamps show that those who are living in the Spirit will be ready for his return.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

So clearly being ready for Christ returning is about the believer being ready spiritually and alive waiting for Christ.

The sun shall be darkened and the moon will not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven. The leaders of religion are like the sun, moon and stars and in these days see how they have fallen and become materialistic and 'darkened' before all the world exactly as Christ predicted?

Not to mention Christ said in Revelation He would come with a New Name not the name Jesus.

Nothing to do with the discussion we are having for Jesus has not yet returned.

Literal interpretation of Holy Books has always veiled man from God. It was a test to the Pharisees and Saducees and now Christians.

No test! Everything will be revealed as the times come.

So when Christ told one of His disciples 'Let the dead bury the dead' you take that literally too?

Was Christ talking to a man in this life about his Fathers burial or was he talking about a future event?
The Spirit of Truth did not come upon the people till Christ left. So what was it about Simeon and the Prophets that they
were guided by the Holy Spirit and told things? Old Covenant and New Covenant should not be confused.

Some new translations even say spiritually dead now, meaning they cannot accept that words such as those are literal and they're not.

God promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 that in the New Covenant he would

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

You see it is about love of truth. It is about being taught by God.

Daniel,was told to go his own way when trying to unseal the meaning of the book. And in Revelation it says 'no man on earth or in heaven' was found to unseal the Books.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

John 16:13
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?


9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
They will know at the end times and we see the book which people are written in.

So the meaning of the passage you quoted is sealed to the normal man. Only the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the coming Messiah can unseal the meanings.

I believe the Spirit keeps the believer ready for the return of Christ.

That will be one of the proofs He is indeed the Messiah.

It says 'they shall see'. Where does it say 'all' shall see? that is your addition. 'They' could also mean those who have eyes to see not those who refuse to see.

The King James version which all other versions proceed from.

Matthew 24: 30 KJV.
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

In all thy ways acknowledge him and he shall direct thy path.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Christ didn't write the bible.

The OT is Gods scripture his words.

I never said He did.

So why did you leave the way of Christ?

No

What you believe and what God says is the right way is probably where you need to start.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There you have the error. You see the Jews did not know what to expect.
Yes! they knew he would be a king of the line of David, but how could he be an eternal king in a human fallen world?
The Jews show that different beliefs were acceptable compare Pharisee and Sadducee you will find that it was acceptable because the Messiah was to bring the TRUTH of all the teachings of Moses, the Law and the Prophets.

Jews are not coming to Jesus faster than any other time in history.

Jesus changed the law of the sabbath the weightiest of the laws of Moses and the Jews interpreted that as Him not upholding the laws of Moses.

Anyway we are both agreed on Christ. If Christ did not come humanity would still be in the dark ages. He brought love and light to our world.

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm just answering questions put to me.

People ask things and I answer. I'm the one being approached not the one approaching.

Yes it is up to the individual. I wasn't accusing you, just the Bahais in general. Not surprisingly, I'm against proselytizing of any kind.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Jesus changed the law of the sabbath the weightiest of the laws of Moses and the Jews interpreted that as Him not upholding the laws of Moses.

Anyway we are both agreed on Christ. If Christ did not come humanity would still be in the dark ages. He brought love and light to our world.

Jesus did not change the law of the Sabbath.


For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus said the place where we worship would change,,, no longer a place or a country because true worshippers worship God who is a Spirit in Spirit and Truth.

We are made alive to God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It all comes down to freedom of belief and we all need to respect that freedom.

Most beliefs don't have, as their main tenant a part of another person's belief. Christianity took paganism and deformed it. It wasn't pretty. They also don't realize half the things they are doing is Pagan related.

Bahai, on the other hand, does full acknowledge for example Hinduism. Although genuine, you do say that Bahaullah is prophecided in Hindu teachings. Since you are not like Christianity who practically don't care to the point of murder (sorry, side note), your genuine nature of your belief leaves me at awe at the point where I had to ask a Hindu about it. They said it wasn't, then that made me think why Bahai would say Hindu teachings predicted the coming of Bahaullah and then call it Hinduism when Hindu arent even religions-of-the-book.

Your differing beliefs is not the point. The point is the beliefs are disrespectful to other religions. Your goal is peace. You can't have peace if a Hindu says Bahaullah is not in their scriptures and you say they are. That's not differing of religions. That's a huge conflict. Peace can't happen that way.

How would you fix it? Well, you can't. You have to see it from a Hindu perspective not your own and take their consideration as a fact not as a "differing belief" and excuse it that way without addressing the conflict.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It says in a Daniel and Revelation that the prophecies of the Book are sealed until the time of the end. Revelation goes further in chapter 5 when it says no man in heaven or on earth could be found worthy to unseal the Book. So no one amongst religious people or scientists or any Christian can know the
meanings so claiming they know the meaning goes against what the Bible states 'that no man knows'.

In Revelation the only One found worthy to unseal the Books was the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, the coming Messiah.

One of the proofs He is the Messiah is He will unlock the meanings.

Lion of the tribe of Judah, Root of David, refers to a descendant of David. Christ found existence through the Holy Spirit, He was born of a virgin so He has no physical ancestry. That's why He called Himself the Son of God.

Also He said in Revelation He would come with a 'New Name' so the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David would have to be a descendent of David.

Baha'u'llah was descended from Jesse, the father of David as well as two wives of Abraham, Katurah and Sarah. He could not have fixed His ancestry which gives Him the right to claim to be the Messiah.

The Book of Certitude was the Book which 'unsealed the mystical meanings' of all scriptures.

I read the full bible and know Bahaullah isn't in there and any of the quotes you mentioned doesn't mirror the foundation of Christian religion.

As for the specifics of revelation, unfortunately, I'm not well versed in the bible to agree or disagree. Revelations was a hard read. I'd have to re-read it to reply; but, my heart gets heavy when I read the bible. Its not a possitive read for me (hence my signature).