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In what ideas should we believe?

arthra

Baha'i
The title is the easy question? The hard question is why?

Principles conveying our perspective and outlook are important as they influence how we respond to problems we face..

When people are suffering and we seek ways to alleviate the suffering we look to ways for instance of setting up graduated income tax so wealth can be better distributed among people... Some of the funds can be directed to housing programs.. providing school lunches to those in need... seeing that there is adequate medical care and so on...

Another perspective might encourage businesses to have more profit sharing programs for their employees and perhaps more of a voice in the decisions being made for the direction the business is taking...

A third perspective might envision public store houses in agricultural communities to stock surplus commodities that could be available in time of famine..

Another perspective say of a representative world parliament might have a defense force to deal with belligerent powers or enforcing decisions by the world body...

So the way we meet to decide various issues and how we organize to resolve issues are very important.
 

Geoff-Allen

Resident megalomaniac
"We are incredibly heedless in the formation of our beliefs, but find ourselves with an illicit passion for them when anyone proposes to rob us of their companionship. It is obviously not the ideas themselves that are dear to us, but our self-esteem that is threatened."

~ James Harvey

More of people's thoughts about beliefs here -

Quotes, quotations and passages on beliefs

Cheers!
 

Jeremiahcp

Well-Known Jerk
There are loves of truth and there are lovers of opinion.

"And we agreed beforehand that, if any such thing should come to light, it must be called opinable but not knowable, the wanderer between, seized by the power between."

"Yes, we did agree."

"And, as for those who look at many fair things but don't see the fair itself and aren't even able to follow another who leads them to it, and many just things but not justice itself, and so on with all the rest, we'll assert that they opine all these things but know nothing of what they opine."

"Necessarily," he said.

"And what about those who look at each thing itself—at the things that are always the same in all respects? Won't we say that they know and don't opine?"

"That too is necessary."

"Won't we assert that these men delight in and love that on which knowledge depends, and the others that on which opinion depends? Or don't we remember that we were saying that they love and look at fair sounds and colors and such things but can't even endure the fact that the fair itself is something?"

"Yes, we do remember."

"So, will we strike a false note in calling them lovers of opinion rather than lovers of wisdom? And will they be very angry with us if we speak this way?"

"No," he said, "that is, if they are persuaded by me. For it's not lawful to be harsh with what's true."

"Must we, therefore, call philosophers rather than lovers of opinion those who delight in each thing that is itself?"

"That's entirely certain."

The Republic, by Plato Book V / 478e-480a
 

jcforever

Member
Right, so it what they did wasn't their fault. They were merely pawns in God's plan (according to your beliefs), right? That is definitely letting them off the hook.

Since ALL the flesh of man dies in this temporary generation and no one will remember anything that happened, it's not like we're getting let off the hook. ALL sinners will perish.

The SPIRIT of man is what remains in the spirit of God after the flesh perishes.

If you can't understand the difference between the flesh of man and the spirit of man, then you can't understand much of anything else that has been revealed through my testimonies this past 9 years.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Since ALL the flesh of man dies in this temporary generation and no one will remember anything that happened, it's not like we're getting let off the hook. ALL sinners will perish.

The SPIRIT of man is what remains in the spirit of God after the flesh perishes.

If you can't understand the difference between the flesh of man and the spirit of man, then you can't understand much of anything else that has been revealed through my testimonies this past 9 years.
Of course its letting them off the hook. The men in question weren't doing anything wrong because they had no choice in the matter. They were just fulfilling God's orders, right?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Of course its letting them off the hook. The men in question weren't doing anything wrong because they had no choice in the matter. They were just fulfilling God's orders, right?
I would put this more pointedly.
If @jcforever opinion is correct, then Judgment Day is superfluous. It is positively irrationally immoral. Of course, I am presuming that Almighty God did the planning.
To me, this is the most fundamental Problem of Evil. If Almighty God planned all this and made us as we are, then we are simply what He wants. That is the foundation of Universalism, the only kind of Christian Salvation that makes any sense.
Tom
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
That's quite naive. People don't always reciprocate. In fact, many people that get treated very well by everyone, such as the wealthy and famous, treat everyone else like crap.

The question is what we should believe (we being the human race). What we actually do is quite different and not everybody follows the golden rule. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't though.
 

jcforever

Member
Of course its letting them off the hook. The men in question weren't doing anything wrong because they had no choice in the matter. They were just fulfilling God's orders, right?

Exactly.

Amos 4
13: For lo, he who forms the mountains, and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought;

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Deuteronomy 32
39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Exodus 4:
10: But Moses said to the LORD, "Oh, my Lord, I am not eloquent, either heretofore or since thou hast spoken to thy servant; but I am slow of speech and of tongue."
11: Then the LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
12: Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak."

Psalm 33
8: Let all the earth fear the LORD, let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him!
9: For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood forth.
10: The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nought; he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
11: The counsel of the LORD stands for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
12: Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!
13: The LORD looks down from heaven, he sees all the sons of men;
14: from where he sits enthroned he looks forth on all the inhabitants of the earth,
15: he who fashions the hearts of them all, and observes all their deeds.
16: A king is not saved by his great army; a warrior is not delivered by his great strength.
17: The war horse is a vain hope for victory, and by its great might it cannot save.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Exactly.

Amos 4
13: For lo, he who forms the mountains, and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought;

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Deuteronomy 32
39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Exodus 4:
10: But Moses said to the LORD, "Oh, my Lord, I am not eloquent, either heretofore or since thou hast spoken to thy servant; but I am slow of speech and of tongue."
11: Then the LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
12: Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak."

Psalm 33
8: Let all the earth fear the LORD, let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him!
9: For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood forth.
10: The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nought; he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
11: The counsel of the LORD stands for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
12: Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!
13: The LORD looks down from heaven, he sees all the sons of men;
14: from where he sits enthroned he looks forth on all the inhabitants of the earth,
15: he who fashions the hearts of them all, and observes all their deeds.
16: A king is not saved by his great army; a warrior is not delivered by his great strength.
17: The war horse is a vain hope for victory, and by its great might it cannot save.
None of this supports your argument though. It merely states that God shapes people's hearts and observes their deeds. Nowhere does it say that everything we do is ordered by God.
 

jcforever

Member
I would put this more pointedly.
If @jcforever opinion is correct, then Judgment Day is superfluous. It is positively irrationally immoral. Of course, I am presuming that Almighty God did the planning.
To me, this is the most fundamental Problem of Evil. If Almighty God planned all this and made us as we are, then we are simply what He wants. That is the foundation of Universalism, the only kind of Christian Salvation that makes any sense.
Tom

Salvation is much different than what most Christians believe. Man was created in the image of God who is totally invisible called the Word of God. The Word of God is the invisible Spirit of God that's eternal. It is made of invisible waves spoken into existence by our Creator.

The visible flesh of man that's observed by other flesh of man in a visible world is not man's true reality. Created man gets new visible bodies in the next generation after the day of the Lord destroys everything on earth including the flesh of man and melts it all into hot molten lava. This will end this temporary generation used only by the Creator to reveal who Man and God are.

So salvation is when the flesh of man perishes, created man will remain in the image of God. There was never any need for the flesh of man to decide whether to believe or not to believe.
 

jcforever

Member
None of this supports your argument though. It merely states that God shapes people's hearts and observes their deeds. Nowhere does it say that everything we do is ordered by God.

It's impossible for unspiritual men to understand the basic knowledge of Christ or to know what the "will of God" means.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
It's impossible for unspiritual men to understand the basic knowledge of Christ or to know what the "will of God" means.
Isn't that just a cop out though? Aren't you saying that you can't support your claim because I won't be able to understand?
 
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